I am certainly at 7, though not so much in my church, but rather in my (so called) "parachurch" ministry. Interesting stuff. Thanks!
Peace,
Jamie

I am not sure how to use the trackback link, but I wanted you to know that I am encouraging my readers to interact with your 7 layers and share their own thoughts on each one. Thanks for the post. emerginglife.org

I'm not at any of these stages, as I don't fit any molds. Just follow God's leading...

Article said that Jesus never said,
"God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" and Paul never asked anyone "to invite Jesus into your heart."

God does have a wonderful plan for us, but it's not the "prosperity" gospel you hear on TBN. Pick up your cross and follow Him (Luke 9:23).

As for inviting Jesus in, yes, it's all about that. Paul was all over that. Read Galatians 2:20 ... I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Invite Jesus in (John 1:12): Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

...Bernie

In S. E. Asia we are stupid and always try to import popular models from the US, which we read about, e.g. Seeker Sensitive! . . . We do not seem to delve into our own history and cultures to seek appropriate models!

May I recommend: JOHN DRANE in FAITH IN A CHANGING CULTURE (Marshall & Pickering, UK,1997). has said similar things already.

On p 201 he has a diagram comparing "THE INHERITED MODEL" and "the HOLISTIC BIBLICAL MODEL." Do dig into it! He has 8 sections: The Bible, The World, People, Personal Sin, Sharing Faith, Conversion, The Church, God.

Under Sharing Faith, for instance, he lists on the LEFT: formal, bring God to people, from Above, Speaking, Missions, Church Territory, Stressing Differnce,
and on the RIGHT, he writes, relational, God is already present, Being Alongside, Listening

PAT in MALAYSIA

I just thought I'd address the seven layers that you took away from that evening. I also was there, but came away with a VERY different feel.
#1)Mclaren said there are MANY different layers, and the point of them wasn't to show superiority, but to simply explain that we all need to respect each other along this journey, no matter where we're at. We need to celebrate movement on all levels, not judge because we're at a "higher" level than others.
#2) He didn't imply all the cynicism you are now as you basically poke fun at anyone who is not at the "seventh" layer.
#3) NO WONDER Mclaren is getting so much heat! People take his innocent encouragements towards ecclesiological change and twist them. Personally, the feel I got from the evening was to simply figure out a way to include EVERYONE in the emergent discussion ... no matter what stage of the game they're at, or what denominations they're in. It was amazing to hear from both "willow" and traditional church people, as well as those launching out in their own emergent communities.

Personally, I had only heard of Mclaren a few weeks before, and it was a random event that allowed me to spend the evening with the emergent crowd at the house. I came away from the evening with the understanding of peoples dissatisfaction with church, but also with the hope that there CAN be change as we love each other towards it. We can't judge or label each other!

Please, from someone who is very new to this movement, be VERY careful to not stir up more dissention, and be even MORE careful with how you use someone's words... especially someone you respect. We need to protect each other, and keep the communication doors open to ALL.

I was at that same gathering and I can attest that Skye has done a great job of summarizing Brian's seven levels. After Brian finished describing these I remarked that he had just outlined the exact spiritual journey I have been on for the past 8 years! Starting with #1 I've progressed through each of these various stages in turn.

I want to echo what Brian said and Skye reminded us of, that while these layers are helpful for understanding some of the differences within our own ranks in the emerging church movement, we shouldn't use these descriptions to marginalize or exclude others from the conversation. If you're at level 7 you shouldn't be looking down on those at level 2 and think "Man, they just don't get it. Let's please be as patient with each other's process as God has been with ours.

Peace,

-Mike

This nice 7-layer emergent cake frames the conversation well for those entering the emerging church conversation* from the established church. Of course, I'm not too shocked it stopped short, neglecting the large and growing presence in the Church who...
http://www.alanhartung.com/blog/index.php/2005/10/29/how_emergent_are_you_mclaren_s_seven_lay

Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that this whole website appears to be far more focused on the world than on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Great article. Thanks for sharing your summary.

I have linked to it at my blog also.

Out of Africa,
I am not to interested in reactive-labelling-theology (like emergent, etc) but hopefully the content will lead to new emerging thinking without being emergent.

Peace my bro.

Theo Geyser in Zambia

I am concerned that this could become "the" path to being emergent, as if this were some goal in itself. I think we can all agree that isn't the goal. Emerging by definition implies we aren't there, yet. If the end result of being emergent is to realize that "the kingdom of God has drawn near." I would argue that there are many other ways to get there than the 6 proposed steps above. I know many people who are actively engaged in step 7, but haven't touched on many (if any) of the previous ones. Though this is a legitimate path, I want to be careful that we don't de-value other paths to awareness of who God is and His plans for our world.

Also, that 7th step begs another step of action answering the question , so what are YOU (individually and corporately) going to do about the kingdom being near? The answer to this question will be incredibly varied based on God's giftings and leadings in our individual lives and the communities in which we belong.

William said:
"Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that this whole website appears to be far more focused on the world than on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?"

It's you.

skye,
thanks for the great summary. I think it does get the gist of what brian was getting that night.

For those who attended the meeting with Brian, you'll recall that a great deal of Brian's comments that night flowed from "Layer 7" as described above. He seemed focused upon issues involving politics and social justice and their impact upon the mission of the gospel both in the US and globally.

While McLaren has called us to be repectful and welcoming to people at all levels of the emergent conversation, he seems interested in drawing people into the deeper layers where the questions become more fundamental, and the answers carry greater implications.

I walked away from the evening hearing two helpful things: Welcome people at every layer of the conversation, but don't be content to stay on the more shallow layers--have the courage to venture deeper and speak up.

As other commentors have stated, I am not sure in which layer I currenly reside, but if McLaren's comments in A GENEROUS ORTHODOXY take root in me, it is more important for me to continue to reform instead of being content in my current state of reformation. Therefore, I must always want to venture to a new and deeper layer of emerging.

Skye, thank you for your summary of McLaren's statements for those of us not lucky enough to be with him in person for his discussion.

I heard a similar talk of Brian's at Willow with a small group over lunch, and I think the point that it is a depth analysis is accurate for what I heard. And I think the issue of gospel is uppermost in this: what is the gospel? is a question Brian, and many others today, are asking.

7 out of 7... but only 7?

how about moving the altar to the side and the eucharist table to the center (not the front) of the fellowship. To have the congregation become a living sermon.... To commune as a family around the dinner table and celebrate Christ Body and Blood?

How about literally deconstructing the old paradigm and in it's place let the Holy Spirit NATURALLY grow the local fellowship ... for it is God who makes it Grow.

How about throwing out the program-driven mentality and not have a self motive attached to the LOVE of God we are passing on to others. Where is this Agape Love I read about? When has a program displayed this?

When do we embrace that we are placed into the BODY OF CHRIST? and that we are One in Christ through THIS baptism of Placement?

We have not even begun to find the layers... we are only still talking about old crusty dried out cakes... old wine skins stuffed with new wine that is ready to burst the seams... that is emergent. Let's burst!

So why two slam references of Campus Crusade: Evangelism having 'Four Spiritual laws' and 'Jesus never saying God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life'? BTW, Does Jesus and the Bible constantly say these things. Just not in the exact phrase.

Emergent but Looking for Deeper Levels

I've been mostly a wholistic Gospel kind of believer since God merged me into his body through Christ many years ago. And I've dabbled in Emergent thinking and conversations a little over the last few years. But it has never struck me as quite so obviously social-gospel oriented as it seems to be in this seven layer hierarchy of understanding what the gospel is about. There isn't even a hint that it is actually our common relationships with God through faith in Christ, our relationship with a supernaturally interventionist, death-overcoming, sin-forgiving and sin-eradicating, bodily-resurrection-enabling, Spirit-filling, love-creating, community-building God that is at the heart of the deepest layer of what should be emerging in this movement. If this truly characterizes where the Emergent is going, we’ve been here before and there is no need for it to emerge because it is still present in what may arguably be considered the dying parts of the church. I'm disappointed at least, and wondering if the church isn’t once again finding news way to shoot itself in the foot, or perhaps some more vital organ. There are far deeper levels to which we must be submerged in Christ than suggested in this Seven Layer Summary.

Yours in the Grace and Peace of Christ

Skye et al,
Thanks for summing up this conversation piece. I am attending a lecture this Thursday in KC where Brian is teaching...I hope this 7-layered cake gets brought up there as well.

I will agree with another poster - it's been fun looking back as well as looking forward with much anticipation.

Good stuff and it does help frame the conversation. What I am curious to see is how this shapes large existing organizations. Can they make the turn? Does it really matter if they do? Or is it simply the cycle God works to renew HIS mission for HIS glory? (either that, or everything goes the way of the YMCA).

In the emerging conversation it seems that sometimes the needs of those who already fill the pews are forgotten. Leadership is so concerned with the unconverted (and their own appearance of being the coolest, most intellectual leaders) that they forget some of the uncoverted are in church: those who have come to church thirsting for God, many who have not been converted or discipled.

The majority of church goers (Christian or preChristian) have no need for this kind of 'superior christianity', and all the layers that go with it. Leadership gets all worked up over nothing. The Holy Spirit converts, not trends.

We pew-filling, tithe-paying church goers just want church to be church, not the coolest place to hang out with the coolest people. We get enough of "I'm more cool than you" in the world, and don't need it in church. Most of us have had our fill of entertainment church. Yes, we want candles, stained glass, orthodox doctrine, beautiful music, etc..., but we're too uncool (and sometimes unintellectual) to be emergent. We want our children to have traditions not trends.

The semantics of language use are overflowing the intents of each perspective here. The concern with the generalized descriptions (including the 7 layers above) of the emergent movement comes back to this: what does the Bible say our position is in relation to God? antiquated terms like sin and righteousness aren't very popular while social justice is all the rage. So the conversation skews to how the lived-out gospel looks at the expense of discussing the nature of the heart of man...

I'm a blog virgin, but here goes anyway.
If the message is that the kingdom of God has drawn near, then maybe a good use of tools like the one I'm using right now would be to share where you've seen that today. Did any of you see Jesus today, or His bride. Did any of you be Jesus today, or this kingdom? what does it look like how would you describe it or share it with the people you're talking to now. I sense in these writings a variety of thoughts and emotions, hopes and fears, joys and pains. I hope that you see Him in others and be Him to others,even in these, and I hope that I do to.

I wonder if a preferred notion might be:
7-3-6-5-4-2-1?

Perhaps these 7 stages of conversation presuppose certain common beliefs among Christians across the denominational spectrum. Level one of this emergent heirarchy relies on an already accepted creation, fall, redemption paradigm. If this is not present in Seeker Community Church to begin with, then a postmodern approach to worship and piety is the least of their concerns.

I appreciate the thoughts offered by everyone. Emergent, like any neo-process, could become trendy.

As long as we all focus on sharing the Gospel, tapping into our God-given creativity and strive to follow God's call in each of our contexts, then we can love and support each other. "Trendy" then is not an issue.

Remember, Jesus did say, "Go."
Peace

The Church in America has become fad driven. The "emergent" church, the "seeker-sensitive" church, and the "purpose-driven" church will go the way of the Prayer of Jaybez and in a few years, we will be talking about some other "movement." I wonder if God thinks it's funny or sad?

Bernie, I appreciate your comments - thank you. I would encourage not seeing the statements as a slam against Campus Crusade, but simply being unafraid to ask "Is this the Gospel, or a filter I have seen the Gospel through?" It might be better to keep with what Bernie has reminded us is actually written rather than getting so used to an incorporated saying that we begin having a hard time differentiating between that and what is really there.

"Emergent" is a mindset that looks for what God is doing in the midst of the culture we live in - sensitivity. The traditional/modern church infrastructure simply has not tended to be very good at that (www.barna.org).

Nowhere without Him,
Mícheál

Great thoughts. I love that we have differing layers to discuss, as if on a journey. The point, indeed, is not to become a level 7, but to be the church and to progress to being a missional community.

One layer I would love to add, would be 0--the Bible, or the Word. Our theology and the authority of scripture allows us a foundation to launch on such a journey. Without it, what is evangelism? What is mission? What is really the gospel?

Does it bother anyone else that talking about God doesn't enter the picture until step 6? Steps 1-5 are all just questions of effectiveness, like some kind of corporate marketing problem.

Actually, it is bothering that God is not mentioned until step 6, but not because Brian is recommending this as a pathway for churches to take. These "steps" are really steps taken from one place and into another.

Most of the churches taking these steps are seeking at first to find new ways to "reach out", and what they hopefully end up doing is coming to a place of realizing that there is no "reaching out" without depth of intimacy with God. Thus, the realization of where they should have been all along arrives around step 6. These steps are not recommendations as much as they are descriptions.

So, yes, it is bothering -- how did the living Church come to a place where God has been left out of the picture for so long? We talk about God, but intimacy with God and yearning to find out where He is bringing transformation in the world seems to be foreign...

Don't forget about layer #8:

Seeker Community Church renames themselves "Shema" after hiring a Rabbi to be their church consultant so that they can effectively market a multi-site conference in the way that the "ancient Hebrews" did.

I don't think this has anything do to with emergent churches other than specific references to current trends. I think these are the steps that churches or anyone goes through when a cultural shift occurs and people are scrambling to be relevant to that culture at that time. It probably happened ten/fifteen years ago when everyone was scrambling to be a willow creek style church. It probably happened during the reformation and so on and so on. if this is the case, emergent is already old news and everyone should be looking to the next cultural shift and jump on that bandwagon. I think this is a great example of human nature in the face of a changing world. ultimately, it comes down to what Jesus did. he hung out with people and told them the good news of salvation and a relationship with him. whether you are old school, modern, postmodern, emergent, liturgical, etc. just do what Jesus did and you will always be relevant and don't try to be something you are not. You ARE a child of God, you may not be emergent.

Our world IS changing and the only way we can Glorify God as He deserves is to be like Jesus and immerse ourselves in the culture and reach out...and in the process becoming a missional church. *Trendy* is when you become "of the world"...and Jesus showed us a model of how to do it otherwise. For the poster who asked the *level 7* people to have patience with those just beginning the journey, I would ask that those among you who are *paid ministry professionals* be open to just plain moms (and others) like me that the Holy Spirit has given a vision for this movement...open your mind and heart and invite us into conversation. God often speaks through unexpected sources.
Sandy

I think I'm at #8--I don't even want to know what the next "church thing" is. The one thing all church styles have in common is the marketing assumption, with the accompanying workshops, experts, dvd series, books, etc. It's pretty apparent that, in North America anyway, all ways of "doing church" work, and all ways of "doing church" fail. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

The idea of cementing these 7 levels in stone, as some of the comments here seem to do, fly in the face of what the emergent church is trying to do. Anybody who thinks they have arrived at the "highest level" of emerging church, probably has not really understood what it's all about. The aim is not to be the most emergent church possible, but to be relevant to the people you are trying to bring into fellowship with God. This does not require a model or scheme to follow. It requires intense relationship (communion) on the vertical (God) and horizontal (people)plane.

You mention that McLaren uses the word layers, not levels, which indicates to me that he does not neccessarly consider it a chronological process through the layers, but merely as an observation that different christians and different churches are in different places regarding the issue.

Emerging churches are there to reach emerging (read postmodern) people. By far not everybody fits into that category, so by far not all churches should strive to be emergent.

I'm afraid that when you peel away these layers you will find something rotten at the core.