Again I am so greatful for articulate men like James MacDonald. I think his closing comment is so key to today's church. It's not about us, it's about HIM! I too pray we return to that mindset.

I am so thankful for James McDonald's insightful and invigorating comments regarding the "emerging church movement". I agree with everything he has said. As a Pastor in a semi rural, blue collar town in Texas, the "emerging church" is not much of a topic, rather what is of most importance is the art of making disciples. James McDonald hits it right on the head. We need the church to be the church, without apology, to preach the gospel of salvation alone in Christ alone, through faith alone; and to encourage the saved to live out the reality of their faith in obedience to God's word through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is only in this way that the Church will truly emerge.

I would like to have a concise (25 words or less) definition of what the emerging church is - I hear so much about it and have no idea really what it is. Thanks!

Thank you again Pastor McDonald for putting into words the heart passion of the remnant that remains.

James,
Please visit my response to you at my own blogsite:
http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=502

I think that Pastor McDonald has presented a stereotype of emergent then dismantled it. I know he means well, but I think his response is unfair and inaccurate, at times in the extreme.

While I take issue with each of the five points, I want to particularly address #5. I think he takes a cheap and ungracious shot at those in the emerging journey, particularly on an issue that is so untrue. In my experience, Jesus is central to the emerging conversation. In a world where the preaching of Jesus has come on the wings of political, economic and military agendas, emergents pause in order to best reflect on how best to proclaim Jesus, not IF to proclaim Jesus.

In regards to the supposed "harsh" rejection of D.A. Carson's book stemming out of a supposed lack of careful analysis, this is patently unfair, especially for those truly exploring this conversation. Many of us waited for Carson's book with great expectation, as we felt it held the promise to point us in the direction of maturity. However, while there is much to be appreciated in the book, so much as is rooted in a shallow caricature of one emerging leader (McLaren) and lacked the broader exploration of the conversation. For a book that stresses being "conversant", there was little conversation by Carson by his own admission.

I appreciate these posts.

Peace,
Jamie

What are Emergent Christians? I thought Rev. McDonald made his point quite clear. Emergent Christians are fault-finding, biblically illiterate, disobedient, style worshiping, culturally obsessed, people seduced by a desire for respectability.

Actually, my experience of the Emergent Christian is that they are people trying to be responsive to the call of Christ in this day and time as the Modernist world is in collapse. They take seriously the idea that Jesus was the Word made flesh. They take seriously that he came and dwelt among humanity of a particular place and time and was incarnate in their culture and lives. They take seriously that he was crucified, died, and resurrected and called the Church into existence, empowered the Church by the Spirit to be the body of Christ (or Jesus incarnate), sent to dwell in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth. They also take seriously the goal of the Apostle that “I have become all things to all people in order that some might be saved.”

What they are not about is the perpetuation of American middle class Evangelical modes of doing church as the Imperial model for everyone to follow. They are not about “proclaiming” Jesus in ways that are unintelligible to the audience just because the speaker believes their culturally contextual mode of sharing Christ is a transcendent norm. They also seek to avoid the smug dismissive treatment of others using caricatures and straw men. They don’t always succeed but that has been my experience of the character of Emergent folks.

I can see quite fully why you choose not to be Emergent.

Sharsmit,
A good, concise definition of Emerging Church is found at wikipedia.

James,
I am again frustrated by the caricature of the emerging church that you offer here. Scot McKnight, who you and I both had as a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School offers a response to your points at his blog, Jesus Creed.

The idea of a 25 words (or less) definition of the emerging church, er, excuse me, conversation is the most telling comment of everything I've read here so far. It seems to me - and I am by no means an expert - that the emerging and evangelical churches have a fundamental failure to communicate effectively precisely because there is no such definition. Therein lies the rub: in the emerging church no definition is necessary and may, in fact, be seen as unhelpful. I may be stating the obvious, but it appears as if these two church 'systems' arise from two fundamentally different world-views, with an attendant difference in well, everything. It's not like we're comparing apples and oranges, we're comparing apples and the Waffle Hut.

The similarities? Both have a deeply ingrained culture absolutely full of unwritten rules and regulations (if you're emergent you can't like George Bush, if your evangelical you can't ever ask What Would Bono Do) and both are determined to stake their position over and against the other. And I have these highly personal and subjective observations, for what they're worth:

1-) Most of the emergent people I converse with are emergent precisely because (pay attention) they have been deeply wounded by the established, evangelical church and,

2-) I have yet to see an emergent church operate a homeless shelter.

3-) Both brands of Christianity appear to me as self-indulgent and narcisstic. (Consider the cost of paving the evangelical church's parking lot with the annual food budget of the nearest homeless shelter, or the actual involvement of the neighborhood emerging church in that same shelter and you'll see what I mean. Lazarus, it seems, must languish at the gate while we sort out all this other stuff)

I could go on, but I've probably said far too much as it is. To the leaders of both the evangelical and emergent movements I must ask: What happens to a guy like me, who can't go back to the old school but isn't emergent enough? I have to tell you that, amidst the increasing polarization of North American Christianity, I don't know where to stand and unfortunately, that's because none of you have demonstrated a compelling reason - beyond the supposed 'rightness' of your cause - as to why I should trust you.

As one who often teaches on this topic, I could not agree more with the insights of your article. While much of the emerging church's critique is needed, and while I resonate with their frustration and questions, many of their answers are ultimately unsatisfactory. I think Mark Driscoll has it right when he writes, "Culture is a stationary bike that each generation climbs on in hopes of getting somewhere only to die and fall off so that the new young stud can take his turn peddling and, like a fool, make pronouncements about his progress. We would be wise to see postmodernity as simply the new guy on the old bike and not mistake cultural change for kingdom progress." Thank you for writing so clearly and passionately about a conversation that has become a movement, when what we need most is a God-ordained intervention, an awakening, a revival.

"Witness the harsh rejection, rather than careful analysis of D.A. Carson’s book, Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church on many emergent blogs."

Err... I think the harsh rejection was pretty much started by Carson. To call that book 'becoming conversant' was hilariously disingenuous. I'm not condoning the Emergent response; simply stating that Carson's book was hardly a work of careful analysis, containing numerous glaring errors that he should frankly be embarrassed about.

James wrote:
"If you have not traveled to the places in our world where the Gospel of Christ is spreading like wildfire, I covet that opportunity for you. What you find there is not careful connoisseurs of some Rodeo Drive Jesus, but flag-waving, flame-throwing, on-fire followers of Christ. The power of God’s Spirit is moving because Jesus is experienced, adored and proclaimed in all of His transcendent glory. "

Sounds like you're talking about Africa, where the false "health & wealth" gospel preachers are running amuck, thank's to junk "prosperity gospel" preaching from America via TBN TV. Yes, lots of unbridled enthusiam... zeal without knowledge... Some people are trying to clean up this mess in Africa, like this ministry: http://iteministries.org/ .

Ok:
I am learning alot about blog world. I think the above comments are all helpful. Not once when reading any of them did I feel that the comments were without merit, (except when the one guy called me Rev, only Jesus is to be revered and I would never use that term, that's the kind of self elevation the emerging church is calling us to lose and they are right).
I am unsure as to why my criticism was so deeply felt and defensively responded to while my support and enthusiasm for the good in emergent conversations seems dismissed as disingenuous?
Bottom line, I have not seen or heard any solutions that seem compelling to me. I am out on all horizontal, man-centered, ego-enhancing, market-driven, western-world, anti-supernatural Christianity. I am working and praying for a solution in my life, family and church, and I am yet to read anything from the emerging church of style or substance that is compelling to me. I resonate with the critiques but I am between amused and offended by the solutions offered in so far as they range from silly to blasphemous.

James MacDonald

For Michael Kruse:
Let's don't let our points of disgreement in content or in manner serve as liscense to reject another person's perspective. One of things that most concerns me in the emerging church dialogue is the readiness to pick up the tonality fundamentalism, i.e. meaness etc. when addressing someone we disagree with. I tried to be engaging with my article and arresting with my word choice--forgive me where that came across as harsh. I am with you in much of the criticism of the western church, I just don’t resonate with the solutions currently offered by emerging authors/speakers. That does not exclude me from the dialogue or mean that I don’t seek to reflect some of the positive, Christ-like characteristics that are reflected in the leaders you have encountered. Please pray that I will.

Bound together in Christ,

James MacDonald

I disagree that most emergents are "biblically illiterate." I consider myself part of the Emerging Church and I have read the Bible countless times. Yet I don't claim to have all the answers. Does that make me biblically illiterate? No. I have questions that God will answer in His timing. James says that he has "yet to read anything from the emerging church of style or substance that is compelling to" [him], yet many emerging churches are reviving very scriptural traditions of prayer, meditation, fasting and litergy. To me these seem to be very substantial alternatives to the "Four Spiritual Laws" fire insurance faith of Western Christianity.

Hey Bernie:
I was actually talking about Romania and Vietnam. I would certainly never support a health/wealth message in Africa or anywhere. Do you doubt that God's Spirit is moving powerfully some places in the world? It's so interesting to observe and now experience the harsh, "you stink if you don't agree with me" tonality from some emerging guys who interact in a way so thoroughly consistent with what they are trying to get away from. I don't see any enemies on this site, do you? God help us all.

james macdonald

As noble as the emergent ‘shift’ appears to be, it is not without opposition. And not only from those outside the emerging circle. While such rancor can be construed as positive from those within the circle it is the opinion of this observer that it can become another “us vs. them” alignment that has plagued the Body of Christ since saints codified personal viewpoints. It may be a “kinder, gentler” realignment, but it’s still resetting boundaries no matter how fuzzy one wants to draw the line. Now whether this is a good thing or just the common symptom of growing pains as the Body matures has yet to be determined. As welcoming & inclusive as it can be, emergent thought will not become the overwhelming expression of the Church Universal. It can only hope to render the lines of smaller circles more flexible or even erase some of them.

I’m not advocating cookie-cutter Christianity. I’m saying the best efforts of the current emergent spokesmen/women will be a voice like one calling out in the wilderness. The response of those within the smaller circles or those with no circle affiliation can only be fanned by the Wind.

In spite of all the controversy I’m drawn to emergent thought & heartily engage in the on-going conversation. It is a breath of fresh air in the otherwise limited menu model of the modern evangelical church. It’s this vapid style of church expression that motivates me to emerge simply because the other options have become, well, too stale. That is why I would not be an enthusiastic part of Harvest Bible Chapel or any other church expression similar to it.

Modern church culture or emerging church culture? I would choose the fresh-baked loaf over yesterday’s batch. And not because day-old bread is not as wholesome or nutritious or even baked with inferior ingredients. For me it’s simply not as fragrant. The emerging model will not look like the way it has been done before. It will indeed look different, taste different & smell different. Thank you Jesus!

Christians emerging from mass-produced factory-made bread hunger for the smaller specialty bakery offerings down the street. Those comfortable with the flavor & texture of their modern church loaves will still be fed. And if the emerging expression happens to prefer lingering over their meal while engaging in thought-provoking conversation, I say bon appetit!

James Macdonald's critiques would fit my experiences if he were talking about the "Seeker-sensitive" movement.

If by "style," we mean the methods and approaches to communicating the gospel, then count me in as one who thinks "style" is just as (but not more) important as substance. I'd prefer to use the word "language" in its broadest sense.

The problem is when a particular language for worship is held as the standard--whether that's adult-contemporary praise choruses and business casual, gospel hymns and suits, or poetry and blue jeans.

Personally, I think Pastor MacDonald is spot on in his analysis. I appreciate the perspective of a man who has been around the block. Having been in youth ministry for the past 22 years, I can honestly say that this movement was not a surprise. Listening to the chatter always brings me back to the only comment my Mom ever made about sex that I bothered to remember. She would say, sighing heavily, “every generation thinks they are the ones that discovered sex, never realizing that they are here only because somebody before them was doing a satisfactory job”.

Pastor, thanks for going before us and fighting the good fight. I have read enough of your writings to know that you carry a few scars from previous battles. “This? It’s only a flesh wound”!

May God bless you greatly.

Very interesting discussion, but for a lay person, I think that all Christians are getting TOO important via each new denomination, or movement. Didn't the early Church deal with "movements, heretics, etc. as well... Remember "What's new is really old and done again.. We just heard at Christmas "Jesus is the reason for the season", remember He's the reason for the Christians as well.

Thanks

What if James MacDonald is emergent after all! I know it sounds strange, but for all his resistance, he comes across as direct and struggling to hear the bible above the din of culture. What more is there? We're all pilgrims trying to do the same thing--wheter we like the title emergent or not.

Considering the difficulties we have defining ourselves, we be better off without the labels.

Tim

Thank you Pastor James for telling it like it is, it seems that many claim they are doing just that, but it is far from the truth. I also have been disturbed by the Health/Wealth, Word Of Faith Movement. The Name It and Claim It "preachers" are promoting a heretical doctrine that does not line up with the Word Of GOD. Many well know individuals have written books, spoke and quoted the scriptures falsly and have become the modern day false teachers we have been warned in the bible about. What is going on in Africa is a tragedy, people who are coming to Christ for the first time should be told the gospel truth. But sadly they are led astray and fed with such blasphemous lies that Jesus death on the Cross did not completing the work of Salvation and that we are little gods ourselves. Your statement "zeal without
knowledge" could not be more dead on true.

GOD BLESS YOU

Ed

I agree completely with Pastor James. The "Emerging Church" movement is actually such a wide group of people. You have men like Brian McLaren who is SO FAR OUT there he just freaks you out. To the other side where they are doing "emerging worship". The reason for their movement makes sense. The way a lot of the leaders in this movement are leaning though is way off. Jesus Christ must be kept first above all. The Word of God must NEVER be compromised. Sinfulness and repentance in many of these churches is left out. They are not preached in order that more may hear their "good news." But what is really happening is you have a lot of people that are just hearing how good God is ... how loving He is ... etc., which is true..but until you see how wicked the human heart is and our bent for sinfulness...you can not come to the cross and realize in truth what Christ Jesus did for you. Let's preach all of the Word...(even the things we don't like and those that offend) and trust that God knew what He was doing when He put it together...Praise King Jesus