I really have to resonate with this idea...

The illustration can be no more poignant than our reaction to the conflict in Iraq. Jill Carroll is released today and part of her message is the goodness of her captors, and immediately the news personas accuse her of the kind of rants that abductees go on soon after their captivity. It's not possible that we are being unfairly stereotypical? I know it's abduction, but perhaps...

Look at your prayer requests at your church: how often do you pray for the insurgents/families? The Hamas militants? Those who currently threaten America and well, no one wants to admit it but certain deep circles associate threatening America with threatening God Himself. Boyd's thesis speaks directly to this, and I applaud him for not catering to the "spirit of the age" in America today. Perhaps insurgency will help us see how we ignore and marginalize all over the world and in our own country for the sake of "capitalism" and "patriotism", the Godly tenets of the American way.

America is becoming a socialized nation. We now see things as entitlement, not as something to work for. We are in no better shape then France.

When Christians come together and live as Christ called us to. Loving unconditionally, not beign judgmental, not alligning ourselves with one political body, we will see the true kingdom on the hill arise. Why are we not living that way now? Because we are afraid of the persecution that will come with it.

Lets stand up and stand out and let God truly take back this nation, and the world, for Christ.

Really!?
Over 1000 people left the church because he preached on "the danger of mingling the mission of the church with conservative politics." And US Christians are worried about the relatively minor impact that Christianity has had on Canadian society. Keep preaching it brother.

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."

If America truly were a Christian nation, wouldn't this be national policy?

What are we taking America back from? What does entitlement have to do with Christianity? I am not sure if being no better than France is good or bad, but I don't know what it has to do with whether America is a Christian nation or not. The old testament if full of imagery about Israel as Gods' people. But I think it is wrong and improper theology and reading of scripture to say that we can just choose to take Israel's place as God's people. Instead we are supposed to take God's message to the ends of the earth, becoming God's country doesn't do that, especially if God's message becomes wrapped up in nationalism.

***"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their ossessions nd goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."

If America truly were a Christian nation,wouldn't this be national policy?***

No because the Believers were acting voluntarily. If every single person in this country were a Believer, it wouldn't have to be policy. It would just happen.

To be perfectly honest, I can see why the 1000 left! I would have certainly been among them. From the exerpt above I don't see a Christian message at all but an anti-America message. I think that most of the conservative, right leaning, evangelical Church would not at all believe that America is a Christian nation or that America is a "holy city on a hill", or that we are somehow God's chosen people reborn (although there may be a few, there is no biblical reason to say that) but I believe the author has gone far beyond the banner of Christ and raised the banner of I HATE AMERICA! Most truely born again believers could care less about Christianizing America but are very interested in saving Americans.
The ideas of homosexuality being repugnant is not an American idea, it is a God idea (Lev. 18:22); anti-abortionism is not an American idea but a God idea (Exod. 20:13); the idea of liberty is not an American idea but a God idea (Isa. 61:1); etc.
I find it very offensive that someone would suggest that we should pray for "the insurgents/families", "the Hamas militants". I do not know any of the insurgents or the Hamas militants but I do know Americans that are in Iraq fighting for our country's interests and I will make no apologies for praying that God will bless them and their families and protect them from the evil they face. I will not pray, per se, that God bless the terrorists and their families because I would rather see God destroy terrorism. Although, we have in fact prayed that God would end the atrocities of the Hamas and the insurgents therefore in a round about way I guess we are praying for their blessing as well, but if someone has trouble seeing that what they are doing is evil then we actually have nothing left to talk about.

Another thought: There is a picture in the New Testament of this battle for the hearts of the people between the conservative and liberal camps. The picture is the Sanhedrin. On the one hand you have the Pharisees (extremely conservative) and the Saducees (extremely liberal). Jesus did not consider himself to be either one but that did not keep him from aligning many of his views with the Pharisees. On a couple of occasions they (the Pharisees) were impressed with Jesus' views even though they hated Him. Even so He did not seem to let that change His views or stop Him from ministering to either group (although most of these ministry times may be described more as clashes by some than ministry).

I find some agreement with the basic premise of this article but for different reasons. America is not a Christian nation because we do not have laws, a population nor a government that believes that they owe any duty to God. As a nation we have bought into a myth that God only deals with and only commands obedience from individuals. Well, the Bible clearly details that God holds the heart of the king in his hand and that he judges nations as well as individual people. Our nation is under the judgment of God for reasons too numerous to count and thus we should pray that God would bless all peoples (especially Americans) with repentance of sin and a desire to honor Him in all things. Biblical seperation of church and state needs to be practiced so that the church will honor God in the things He has given them to do and the State will honor Him in the things He has given them to do. I pray that not just for a Christian nation built on the eternal law of God but for a Christian world where all peoples seek to honor Christ- that they would kiss the Son lest He become angry and they be destroyed in the way (see Psalm 2).

Finally, we should pray for the insurgency and the Hamas militants and their families- we should pray that God will stop the violence, we should pray that He will either convert them to Christ so that they might be his friends or that He will kill them soon so that justice may be served and future lives may be saved. Just as God hates American oppression and the fact that we may marginalize people God also hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5) especially those who shed innocent blood.

"I find it very offensive that someone would suggest that we should pray for "the insurgents/families", "the Hamas militants"."

Pastor Scott,

I believe Jesus spoke just the opposite in Matthew 5:44: "But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!"

A believer living in the U.S. has much more in common with a believer living in China, or Iraq, or North Korea, than he does with his next-door neighbor in America. The Kingdom of God is not confined to man-made lines. The children of God are not citizens of the state, although we render unto it. We are the Body of Christ. May God bless His church in America, and in China, and Iraq, and North Korea, and may the church then be a blessing to the nations.

"Pastor Scott" commented:
"I find it very offensive that someone would suggest that we should pray for "the insurgents/families", "the Hamas militants". I do not know any of the insurgents or the Hamas militants but I do know Americans that are in Iraq fighting for our country's interests and I will make no apologies for praying that God will bless them and their families and protect them from the evil they face. I will not pray, per se, that God bless the terrorists and their families because I would rather see God destroy terrorism."
Scottie:
you embody the idolatry Greg Boyd prophetically denounced: the deification of the nation state and the elevation of me,myself & I..Why not dip your head in the Sermon on the Mount,bro????

As a UK pastor, I read this post with interest and would love to know more about why so many chose to leave over the warning mentioned. Personally I would welcome a message from a man that speaks honestly about potential dangers around such issues.

It seems to me that the position of much of the Western church on Israel is a good example of how faith and politics can unhelpfully mix. Some prevalent but poor theology has distorted the political view of many Christians, causing them to demonise the actions of the Palestinians yet conveniently support the Zionist cause. Yes Palestinians have killed and murdered Israelis - Amnesty International estimates around 900 since September 2000. But Israelis have killed almost three times that number - about 2,500 Palestinians (including 450 children) in the same period. On both sides, I see ungodly, inhuman violence, hatred and discrimination. Both Jew and Gentile need the gospel equally. Even given this situation I welcome warnings about blindspots caused by either misplaced religion or misplaced politics.

I don't know the ins and outs of what happened in Woodland Hills Church but I hope the many affected will deal with the issue in a biblical manner. The 1,000 or so wanting to leave will no doubt need to form an orderly queue to speak in order to resolve the offense they feel caused by Mr Boyd's message!

I find it hard to agree or disagree with the author's assertions because he provides no examples. I'm sure the book does. But without them here, they are just generalizations that are difficult to evaluate for lack of evidence.

The myth of America being a Christian nation isn't really much of a debate is it. Read about Manifest Destiny and tell me that an overinflated idea of America and our part in the kingdom didn't drive many of the myths in our countries history. But, what does that mean for us today? If we are deconstructing the mythology that has been so dominant in our culture, what are we replacing it with? How are we to interact with government, culture, and the world? I hope the book takes the next step.

Pastor Boyd tells those of us who often stand out on the fringes of American (white) evangelicalism something we have known for a long time.
Latino/a evangelicals, black evangelicals (many of whom don't want to be called evangelical for fear of being painted reactionary red), and others often have a difficult time engaging poltiically with our Anglo brethren, precisely because we are not sure what this American Christianity means anymore, and the myth of the Christian nation (historically inaccurate as well), hints at other historical questions of conquest, colonialism, and white supremacy that the Church has barely begun to deal with...a Christian America? For those of us wondering what being American means in a xenophobic age, even contemplating the idea that Jesus sides with any worldly power sends chills up my spine.

Predicar hermano Boyd (Preach it brother Boyd.

I love America. I can think of no other country I would want to make my home. I enjoy the freedom to write this comment in this blog. There are, however, things about America that I detest. There are things about America that are quite contrary to the Kingdom of God. America is rich. America is greedy. America is materialistic. America exploits the poor. If Revelation had been written in our day, the city of Babylon would not be Rome; it would be America (among many other nations that oppose Kingdom-values). Washington is the Babylon of Rev. 18 in the same way that Rome was. Many of the values of America are a direct contradiction to the Kingdom of God. Despite George W's claims that America is "the light of the world," it is not. The light of the world is Jesus; I serve a King. There is no "president" on the throne of God's Kingdom.

Right on, GB!

The author makes an equally grave mistake that is much more harmful and shameful to the great Christians that have graced America's lands: he seems to disavow any Christian influence in the formation of our republic.

America has never been a Christian nation: however, it has always been a nation of Christians. It is not a creedal nation, but Americans are for the most part... people of the Apostle's Creed.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but this distinction is important because America is essentially a nation that bought POSITIVELY into the enlightenment principles (as opposed to France). Even though America did not establish itself as a religious nation, both the religious character of the people and the Enlightenment created a situation where the laws and philosophical foundations bear unmistakable Christian imprints.

A democracy rewards those that have plurality of number and energy to sell their ideas. Therefore, the good comes with the bad, obviously. The Bill of Rights, Checks and Balances in government, emphasis on financial transparency stand next to the shameful reality of slavery, racism, and materialism.

However, one cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 is a crowning achievement both for its actual law and for the non-violent, distinctively Christian form of civil disobedience employed to get it passed. Martin Luther King profoundly captured and changed the thinking of the enemy precisely because it was through love. Al Quaeda and the so-called freedom fighters in the Middle East can never know this sort of change precisely because they choose the road of hate. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth does not transform and is powerless against someone who chooses not to repay evil with evil.

I agree with the author that this is not a Christian nation. The reality is that America is a place that is as good as those who participate in the system... warts and all. But denigration of America is to shame those Christians who participated in its formation so that it would be a better place.

When a Christian puts his faith in God and decides to engage America... watch out because America has been a place that listens. And, call me patriotic... this is still a place that has many positive marks of Christians being salt and light. Where Christians truly engage... peace, prosperity, and justice follow.

All of this I find to be tedious and maddening. What made America great was its form of government, based on the very Christian understanding that human beings are fallen and that power needed to be limited. The notion that America was a Christian nation doesn't mean that America ever was or could be perfect. But at the root of American law were ideas that included Judeo-Christian morality and a healthy system to separate powers so that the powerful could not abuse that power unchecked.

What is maddening is the failure to recognize that as imperfect as America is, it is immeasurably better than systems in most of the rest of the world. All the trashing of America for not being perfect accomplishes nothing positive. Statements like "the ugliness of our American version of Caesar" has absolutely nothing to do with the views of most of the Christians I know. Or "our most basic and most cherished cultural assumptions are diametrically opposed to the kingdom way of life taught by Jesus and his disciples." Which assumptions are those? Pro-life causes? Massive world relief efforts? The boy scouts? Religious freedom?

It may be true that in the last fifty years since as secularism has advanced, greed and arrogance have gotten an upper hand, but that has nothing to do with Washington or Lincoln or the view of this country as a place which God has certainly granted a certain amount of favor. The issue is not whether America is "perfect" and every other country is "horrible". It is simply a question of whether a constitutional republic founded on broad Christian principles is significantly better than atheistic dictatorships with no moral restraints on government or Muslim theocracies that glorify barbarism. Whatever problems we have in this country, Christian patriotism doesn't rank very high on my list as something to be protesting.

"America is rich. America is greedy. America is materialistic. America exploits the poor"

With all due respect, some individuals (in many countries) are rich, greedy and exploit the poor. The only broad statement that applies to all of us is that we are sinners.

I am sure I need God's forgiveness more than you but be careful. Examine yourself. Your statement is indicative of a judgementalism that flows from covetousness (10th comandment).

Covetousness may be the least recognized sin in the Church and the most rationalized in our society.

The Major Christian Denominations have been saying that we have been living in a "Post Modern World" since 1962, which means that "True Christian" has been on the decline worldwide (overall) the last 44 years! Isn't it interesting that "True Christianity" has been on a decline in America since 1962 also? America does affect the world! She has become backsliden, and it has affected the world! She,(America) is perfectly described as the Laodician Church of the book of Revelation! She has become rich and increased with goods, and needs nothing! Including God! Remember Jesus addressed this church as wretched instead of righteous, miserable instead of blessed, (they had lost their first love!)poor instead of rich, blind instead of seeing, and naked instead of clothed. Jesus is knocking on the door of the church, trying to get back in. Lukewarm Christians he spews out! America needs to Repent!

Amen!!! Thankfully somebody in an influential position is saying this!! You are absolutely 100% right. I believe that the confusion between the Kingdom and a political kingdom is one of the greatest blindnesses crippling American Christians today.

what America needs is Revival.It`s true that"she has become backslidden, and it has affectd the world.When America gets this revival, it will also affect the world.America needs to pay more attention to Jesus. He is not only standing at the door, He`s screaming too. We seem to have misused freedom and we have become reprobate. The truth is, America is still the light and salt, but then, she sends out a wrong signal to the world. But believe me, REVIVAL will do it.

"The truth is, America is still the light and salt..."

Is it? Is America THE light and salt? With all due respect, I thought that was a term for followers of Christ, not a nationalistic term. Is the American serial rapist "salt and light?" Is the American pimp or drug dealer "salt and light?" Are Americans who have created their own neo-pagan, hedonistic, belief and faith systems "salt and light?" America is made up of Americans, and not all Americans follow Jesus. If "salt and light" is a biblical phrase used for disciples of Jesus, then America-at-large cannot be "salt and light." You can be "salt and light;" I can be "salt and light;" the author GB can be "salt and light;" the folks at Out of Ur can be "salt and light." People must follow Jesus to be "salt and light."

And if "salt and light" is a Christian term, not a nationalistic term, then Christ-followers in the UK, Canada, Japan, Korea, China, Sudan, Germany, Ethiopia, France, Venezuela, Iraq, Mixico, Ireland, Indonesia, and all over the world are "salt and light." Biblical Christianity is not "American Christianity" any more than it is "Ethiopian Christianity."

I am envious of Pastor Boyd. I've long wanted to preach a sermon questioning whether a Christian can rightly be an American, but never have found the courage. I fear getting the same reaction that he got.

It is with interest that I have read the comments on this blog, particularly as I am an Australian. There is an ever present danger of pride on the part of believers, wherever they may live. Like the pharisees, we look down on those (nations) around us who dont live up to our standards. We like to think that it is all about God's standards, but (tragically) it really is about ours! In so doing, we become proud and blind. Spiritually. This is an issue for the church around the globe. It has always been an issue for the people of God, in the Old Testament and now. Yes, I believe that it is an issue for the US right now too.

The question for followers of Christ, is what does God want to do in each nation? What does God want to do in each home, each life? This is how the kingdom of God advances - as His people make choices that align with His purposes and plans. I love my nation (Australia), and I love the US. But I know that neither are "Christian" nations. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But we are not beyond the length of His hand to reach out and save us. Thank God for that!

Does God have a unique plan for each nation? Yes. But the danger of xenophobia is thinking that His plan for my nation is more important than another, as if one member of the body is more important than another. We all need each other! For us in the West, we may be surprised to find out that the vast majority of Christians in the world today do not live in the West. The tide has moved. But how exciting to see revival in South America, Africa and Asia. How good is God! So come on my American brothers and sisters, let's get on our knees together and pray for a world that needs Jesus Christ. "Red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in His sight..." As we focus our efforts on a world, He will honour us in our homelands.

Can a Christian rightly be an American? What a question. This is the sentiment in the article and in many of the comments that upsets me the most.
I don't think anyone can adequately argue that America is a Christian nation. I'm not even sure that we would want to, but America has certainly had it's fair share of Christian influence on it's government, it's culture, and it's policies. Are the influences all Christian? No. But there is still a strong Christian voice in America's population.
Now what happens if all Christians stop participating in our national government? I can guarantee you that it will not make any decisions that are biblically influenced.
The author of the article in his zeal to prove that America is not a Christian nation begins to sound as if he is encouraging people not to be patriotic and not to be involved in the political/governmental realm. I'm sorry but I missed the verse that says patriotism is a sin.
Again I think if the government (especially the executive branch) was leaning a little more toward the political/philosophical views of the Left there would not be so many upset about the Church's role in national patriotism.
I believe in being patriotic as long as our patriotism does not over shadow our faith. I cannot say that I am proud to be an American but I am glad to be one and I am thankful to God to be one because I love this country, it's people, and even it's governmental system. By the same token if I had been born in Australia I would probably feel the same about being Australian, and if I had been born in Japan I would probably feel that way about being Japanese. The moment Christians are silent in our country will be the moment that our country loses a very important voice and it's conscience. I believe at that point there would be no hope for our country and it would begin a downward spiral of self-destruction.

I think Boyd has to ask himself whether his Lord is Lord of all of life, not just the 'non-politics' (if that were possible) part of it.

Secondly politics is a godly calling. I believe that. I learn from the great politician Moses.

Thirdly, if America is not a Christian nation, then Christians in America still have a lot of work to do. Go on claiming your nation for Him.

Fourthly, the Republican Party? That's politics, and I am happy for every evangelical who is happy to wave the flag and promote the Right party. Let me see a better party for an evangelical to support - if there were I am sure it would be receiving the due support, would it not?

And with that, I believe Ps Chris has provided us with the single most cogent and wise comment on the entire matter.

Amen.

I find this discussion interesting. Boyd's book is by no means a new topic. In fact, I would venture to say that the best book on this subject is probably still 'The Search for Christian American' by George Marsden, Nathan Hatch, and Mark Noll. Their thesis is the same, and in a relatively short book they demolish the ludicrous junk churned out by many an evangelical. The discussion really hinges on:
1. What is a Christian?
2. Were the events leading up to the founding of the U.S.A. Christian reasons?
3. Were the so-called 'Founding Fathers' actually Christians?
4. Is the Constitution a 'Christian' document?
5. Does the New Testament ever even support the concept of a Christian nation?

I can answer questions 2-5 with a 'No.' Some of the patriotism 'round here would be mighty offensive to our brothers and sisters in Christ who reside in other countries.
One final beef: the US is NOT salt and light. Christians in other countries cringe when we send typical pastors and missionaries over. If American Christians looked more like, say, Romanian Christians, we would have much less of a problem with subjects like this.
Now I'm mad. Crud.

A couple of comments on the posts:

(1) Like the anti-Americanism of the Democratic party -- i find it hard to differentiate the 'helpful' voices of American dissent from just having a problem with the current Republican agenda. Those who criticize the Christian 'patriots' seem to do from an equally political position. I haven't read the book but it would help if Boyd and those posters who criticize the evangelicals disclose their political affiliation.

(2) Christians in all nations are called to pray for their leaders, no matter what their creed. The treatment of President Clinton was a shameful scar on evangelicals as they showed little respect for a President who didn't march to their agenda. Similarly, the hatred of Bush and the Republican agenda that spews from our other parties and some Christians mouth is equally repugnant.

If anything, Christians should help to everyone to regain the civility, respect, and dignity to the governing process.

Someone please tell me why the article and so many of the comments attack Conservative evangelicals when I have seen so many Liberal politicians (Gore, Kerry, both Clintons, and many more) regularly speak at churches across America?

Not to mention the politically active Liberals like Wallis and Campolo.

The pastors of Conservative Evangelical churches are mostly scared to death to even mention politics because they fear the IRS.

There is clearly a double standard being employed by Liberals here.

A Christian America??? I don't think so. If it were, from the very beginning we would have loved the Lord, our God, with all of our hearts, minds and souls (and proved it by our actions) while loving our neighbors as ourselves.

As it is, we seem to be content to live out our lives, falling short of recognizing the "amazing" grace of God and never appropriating it.

Nate,

I have never voted in an election. If I had voted last time, I would have voted for Peroutka. To be perfectly honest, I do agree with many of the views espoused by these so-called patriots. However, I think that the politcizing of the Gospel is dangerous ground, to say the very least.

I hope you weren't implying that those who disagree with President Bush don't pray for him. As far as Clinton is concerned, when he was in office I was too young to be politically minded.

In short, this is one ultra-conservative who thinks that the only way this country will be changed is when God the Father sends God the Holy Spirit to quicken the hearts of dead men by applying the Gospel to them and giving them ears to hear, so that God the Son will be praised and honored and glorified. Politics is not on my agenda here.

I've been saying this for near 25 years...nice to see it has finally taken root.

Furthermore, I think we will see further divisions in the churches while G-d is sorting this out. The American Church, which is how we are known is being purified, not through pain and suffering, but through doctrinal and spiritual purification.
"The sheep know the voice of their master. The wolves fear the voice of the shepherd."
What happens during the purification is that those whose heart is not right will reject any message that remotely involves anything Jesus commanded of his followers.
G-d's love is not easy, nor is Jesus's message or commands because all of it runs contrary to the ways of the world.
Where the World says, "peace through superior firepower," G-d says peace through obedience to Jesus who in turn commanded us to "love our enemies." The world says love the enemy, hate his designs, but in Jesus's words there is no such qualifier far worse for the world, because in Jesus's words we are to be "sheep for the slaughter."
This runs contrary to the world, and as has been demonstrated here in these posts, for those whose heart is not right with G-d.

There will be further "separations" with the church, and what will be left is a purified American Church, not one of grand numbers rather one of humble servants who know the voice of their shepherd. For those of us who have the patience to wait upon the Lord, a new day is coming...soon.

In Ezekiel 18, the LORD, with crystal clarity, taught that every individual will be judged by Him for their own behavior. The sins, or righteousness, of the fathers will neither harm, nor benefit, their descendants before Him. Whether previous generations have served God or not is irrelevant to Him. The entire debate is "much ado about nothing." The critical issue is: Are we loving and serving Him with all our hearts, minds, strength, etc?

In recent years the conservative evangelical community has continuously proclaimed the tremendous value of our Judeo-Christian traditions in America and how we must fight for them with all our might. I have listened carefully to this often repeated battle cry. NOT ONCE have I heard anyone preaching this message refer to Jesus Christ crucified, Jesus as Lord of all, repentance, sins forgiven, or any central element of the true Gospel. It seems that our so-called Judeo-Christian traditions have nothing to do with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! This fact exposes a little of the deception and confusion that is taking place in current American Christianity because we no longer discriminate between God's truth and our sentimentality. The absence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all this bluster is tacit admission BY ALL that preaching Jesus Christ in political and institutional America is NOT ACCEPTABLE and that this is not, in the true sense of the word, a "Christian" nation. That Christians, great and small, are behind promoting this Christ-less Christian tradition is deeply disturbing and very revealing about where our hearts really are. An objective outsider, an African Anglican bishop, recently stated that the American church has almost completely been taken captive by the American culture. Sadly, this appears to be a shamefully accurate appraisal.

One thing missing in this conversation is what God is doing in other parts of the world. In an earlier post someone stated that since post-modernism became en vogue in 1962 that "True Christianity" has been on the decline. Yes, Christianity is on the decline in the United States, but it is exploding in Africa, Latin America, and Asia. Many times in the course of history God has seen fit to change the location of the "center" of Christianity. Palestine, Greece, Rome, Britain, the United States...now it will move South.

The Kingdom of God will not live or die by the status of American Christianity. I suspect those who are inclined to bind the two together very tightly (the 1000 who left Pastor Boyd's church and others) are unaware of God's movement outside our borders. Philip Jenkins has said in his book, The Next Christendom, that by 2050 only 1 in 5 Christians will be white. Let's pray for America and serve our communities, but let's also pray for and praise God for his work among the nations.

I wonder: did all 1,000 people leave, as the author suggests, solely because they were hanging onto a "myth" and thus disagreed with the message? If the tone of above excerpt is representative (i.e, "I'm right and anyone who disagrees is evil or stupid"), it occurs to me that a substantial portion of those who left did so because of the offensiveness of the messenger.

The argument that America is or isn't a Christian nation is moot. Christianity has ever been an identification reserved for those who follow the Savior, Christ- not just intellectually but in Spirit and Truth. Those who have bathed in the redemption provided to cleanse sin and guilt from the heart and soul.

The whole of which is a process started with the prompting of God and continuing throught he planting of a seed and harvest and discipleship.

Can we do that as a nation-through our political process? Is it possible to gain Spiritual ground through legal arbitration or constitutional semantics?

Are we called to argue such points at all?
We're called to:
"take up our cross and follow."
"To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength."
"To go and make disciples(not conversions) of all nations"
"as far as it dends on you, live at peace with one another."
"Offer ourselves a living sacrifice.."

Is my relationship in such a condition as to not be influenced by the secularism that pervades my community? Is yours?

Is my heart so grateful as to be compelled to spread the Word of God to all those around who would listen? Is yours?

Is my faith strong enough to trust my God to protect me in all my days and throw MY caution to the wind when it comes to sharing that faith?

Should I vote to protect that which, in my heart I know is scriptural, yet will cause another to voilate his/her faith? (even though they are barking up the wrong tree) Should i become party to the political process of 'protecting' the rights of the christian.

Incidently, what are my rights as Christian?

There is no agenda of fallen man that can supplant the truth of the gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit. This being said, and thank God who made us each unique and to follow Him while serving, we cannot assume either prideful victory or the ceding of souls to wrong ideologies. Though we are not of the world; we are in it and in it not to be changed by it. I have of recent questioned the idea of being Conservative because, as in all venues human, there is that which is venomous. Still while the opportunity yet exists to preach the gospel openly, I will defend that right; not desiring to caus martyrdom by turning a blind eye, as was case with the Romanian church.Stand for life in Christ!

The British went through this about 100 years ago, and the belief in a God-ordained British Empire was only smashed with the eclipse of the British nation following WWII.

Now it's America's turn. Modern Christianity has become a foil under which Americans advance their empire. This process has been going on since at least the 1898 destruction of the USS Maine in Cuba, and America's subsequent actions during the Spanish-American war.

The myth of a benign American power that is only reluctantly provoked into war when it has no remaining options is a cherished belief for many people. The harsh reality is that the United States is an interventionist power that has placed its armed forces in over 100 countries in order to influence events or control foreign resources.

We had troops fighting for the Czar in Russia in 1917. We had forces supporting Chiang in China. We supported Pinochet's genocidal regime through tax dollars. We gave Saddam the gas distribution cannisters he later turned on his own citizens (and for which he is now on trial). We give Israel immense amounts of foreign aid which is used, in part, to harshly repress their indigenous Palestinian population (a significant part of which was Christian in 1948). We have militarily intervened in most of Central and South America, under the Monroe Doctrine, which held that the Western hemisphere was the sole stomping grounds for the US to play out its imperial agenda. We unilaterally invaded Panama in order to secure our use of the canal, despite prior treaty obligations. We invaded Hawaii under Wilson's ecstasy of bringing civilization and Christendom to the savage inhabitants there. Our adventurism in Africa during the Cold War knew no bounds. We have been in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Iraq, have bombed Libya, and have constructed a startling shadow government of military bases strewn throughout the world in order to secure our access to foreign resources.

As someone who is not a Christian, it strikes me that any attempt to disentagle faith from nationalism must start with an honest assessment of the fact that America is an expansionist, aggressive power, regardless of which political party happens to hold the reins. Only then can the exact role of faith within this framework be examined.

Puh-leeze!

In neither article does Pastor Boyd address those "issues" that many conservative Christians view as important political issues (abortion, homosexuality, etc.). He says that the purpose of the article (Part 1) is to not address whether any issue is right or wrong but to point out why we as Christians should be careful mixing politics and our Faith over the question of this country's foundation in Christ. I think I know where Pastor Boyd stands on each issue and why he lost 1000 members of his church. While I agree that Christians should never call themselves Republican or Democrat, there is nothing wrong with wanting a pastor to hold to a conservative view of scripture, especially if those verses relating to each social/politcal issue are truth. The theme of both articles purposely avoids the obvious to introduce yet another lame criticism of the much maligned "right wing Christian" by debating whether America is a Christian nation or not. It reads like a clever attempt to switch the focus off the issues, and avoid having to preach the truth in love and let God handle the results. Truth works in friendly and unfriendly governments because God seeks out those who worship him in "Spirit and Truth". Whether we are a nation founded by God or not doesn't matter if Truth isn't being discussed.