the new patch washes off the old garment, especially when they go through the ringer together, but, as dan points out, not before influencing the old for the better.

but wash off it does. my coffee shop style church-within-a-church got canned in 1989 (Portland, OR) but it was able to impact the church for a while.

i say new wineskins for new wine!

It seems that we are all to eager to give up on trying to live out Jesus' prayer that "we may all be one."

A constant attempt to fill "niche" ministries gets in the way of focusing on the things we hold in common. Why don't we expend all this energy on getting us all under the bigger tent of unity. It is frustrating to see us give up this higher road.

Are our values less important than our philosophy of ministry?

I applaud Willow's absorption of Axis. It tells me that they have grown in understanding that those under their pastoral care have something worthwhile to contribute to the rest of the body. Providing a bridge like Axis was their way of preparing both groups to practice the broader principles of the kingdom that both groups should hold in common.

I too have experenced the wrath of the baby boomer twice. I pray that these to generations can work together for the kingdom but actions like this will push the next generations to start over again just like the boomers did with the youth group/seeker chruch.

I gave my 2 cents worth in another post about Mega churches...good or bad...and I once again see the continuous bashing of a contemporary attempt to reach people for Christ. I am greatly involved in a seeker-targeted Mega-church that is not only growing in attendance, but seeing people accepting Christ on a regular basis. I also want to point out that in our weekly church brain storming sessions, we never talk about how we can bring in more people but rather how we can present the gospel in a way that people can relate to and apply the teachings to their lives. This is certainly a changing culture we live in and if we are strong opinionated Christians that feel we can't change with the times to stay relevant, then we are not using our God given talents to present the gospel in a fresh and appealing manner. No compromise at all. Just current and relevant sermons that people can see God even in a degrading moralistic society. Now thats my 4 cents worth.

The ministry I lead, encounter, is getting set to try the "multi generational" approach.

After 4 years of being an alternative/young adult "church within a church", we are now looking down the barrel of half of our people being married, and, in the next couple of years, starting families.

This presents a few unique issues.
1. Babies/toddlers don't like to be up past 8pm, so our sunday night service needs to change its time.

2. Young men and women need to be around older families. (scripture talks of older men & women training the younger).

3. Being surrounded by one generation provides a "watered down" faith. Not that it's ineffective, or wrong, but certainly, being surrounded by other generations, who's faith was lived out in different culture, provides wisdom and experience that peers cannot.

Of course, I think you all know the difficulties of mixing the generations:

1. Huge paradigm shift amongst main congregation

2. Style, language, and worldview differences can easily cause tension and arguments.

3. It's HARD!!! and takes all the pastors, elders and deacons in order to make it work.

While I do believe we are called to spread the gospel to all cultures, we are also called to "mix up the generations" for wisdom and growth.

How to do this.... I don't know, but we are going to give it a shot over the next 2 years.

You can checkout my blog for updates as they come
http://www.encounteraz.com/blog/blog.htm

Caleb
www.encounteraz.com

I belong to a very small church (under 100) and I have really enjoyed getting to know and be mentored by the older women in the church. Sometimes the music on Sunday morning isn't what I would pick, but I think that being a family includes learning from others especially those who are different from you. Having a separate service that isn't designed to integrate people into the main congregation does not fulfill God's design for the church. (esp. the younger learning from and respecting the older as a pp mentioned) My experience with my church family sometimes leaves me frustrated, but so does my regular family. Learning to love those who are different than us is a major part of being the church.

Cheers

Mall churches must have different styles for different cultures, preferences, languages, etc. Even small churches deliver different styles; children, youth and adult. If we don't believe in "splitting the church" we need to stop providing Sunday school, children's church.

At my former church we had six services with five different styles with attendance ranging from 100 to 750, every one bigger than the average size congregation in the US. As we age the church had better learn how minister differently to different people.

Six years ago God called me to lay down my dream that I had in college of starting a Gen-X church, and go to a small traditional church where the majority of the people were three times my age. Some were even four times my age. My strategy, as I believe God directed me, was to come and love the people. Let them know that I was here for the long haul and love them.

Somewhere along the way I learned the need for diversity. I need people who are different than me. I need children and old folks and boomers. And they need each other.

We are now a very diverse church with most of our newest members being Gen-Xers who are tired of Gen-X ministry and see the value of diversity.

This is not said to knock Gen-X ministries like Axis. They built a bridge that could not have been built by a church like mine six years ago. But building the bridge is not ever the final goal.

I think you said that quite well Shannon. You were called by God to fulfill a specific ministry. Mega churches are filling the needs for those who do not want traditionalism. To say that is a wrong way for all because it doesnt fit the norm, well then we are saying that God is wrong.

jay

But, Jay, isn't the power paradigm in the mega-churches? I don't understand how you could point out that megachurches are being attacked from every side and that nobody wants to be 'relevant' to the new generation. the Gospel is always relevant because the Word is living and active - as well as eternal.

but the real danger (and it's a systematic danger) I'm assessing from what you so-well represent, Jay, is that the good news of the Gospel not only needs to be shouted from the rooftops and lovingly addressed to one and all in ways that are sensible (that i wouldn't disagree with) but it also needs to be appealing (your word, not mine). i'm sorry, but that churns my stomach.

the Gospel is not appealing. it is a message of truth and repentance as well as of love and acceptance. Jesus said he came with swords and not peace and that he'll separate families. although a good exegesis may be needed to interpret those quotes, the fact remains that his Gospel may bring us at peace with our Creator and our purposeful selves (the selves we were created to be), it is not appealing, nor should it be made so. that's cheap grace.

It is interesting to me how many of us truly want to have multigenerational worship. I have served in two mega-churches and lead two young adult/Gen x services. The issue to me is that in many cases it is the boomers who do not want to truly mix these cultures.

With the issue of Axis it is interesting that both of the teaching pastors and leaders of Axis have headed to other roles. If the goal is to truly mix and have a multigenerational service, both cultures need to share the teaching, leading, and vision of the greater church. With Willow the teaching pastors are all over 40 years old. You can put a few 20 somethings on the stage to play music but until we truly mix the leadership and vision of the church there will continue to be this tension.

Willow should have included both of Axis's teaching pastors into their weekend teaching team. That would have been a true move of unity. In the end moves like this are nothing more than lip service and will continue to divide the church rather than bring it closer together.

I can't stress enough that we (Christians) continue to miss the focus as to why we gather together in the first place - and this is THE reason why our churches continue to do battle, suffer and divide. Our energies should NOT be spent on "trying to find ways to reach all generations" with our worship services. That ain't gonna happen. Ever. It is completely NOT TRUE that you can create a worship service that will "please" all the generations... it's not a matter of including "enough" of every style just to satisfy the needs of those in the gathering... This is pure selfishness... we DON'T need a hot praise band AND a choir AND a kids choir AND a hymn-sing AND robes AND body piercings AND... etc. ALL we need is to bring those gathered to a TRUE and REAL ENCOUNTER with Jesus Christ through whatever means we happen to use during the service. The huge hurdle to get over, of course, is helping to RE-TRAIN our church attendees as to WHY we gather... 99% of those who attend church are under the grand misconception that what happens during the service is FOR THEM. And if they don't GET what THEY WANT, they will take their marble and go somewhere else. So, the task of we church leaders is to RE-EDUCATE rather than RE-FORM.

Once we do that, we will be on the right road towards offering gatherings that are designed as GOD desires - hearts and minds focused on the CREATOR, rather than on the CREATION.

Still way too vague. Willow received its start by getting the boot from the Park Ridge church (Presbyterian, I think).

Not sure what "values" the author is talking about. I can't believe that in the Body of Christ, with the same God, Savior, Holy Spirit, Bible, History, that "values" would be THAT different! My guess is it has nothing at all to do with "values" or "philosophy of ministry" or any of the subjective terms so easily tossed around. My guess is that the music was different, the dress different, the language different, etc. Probably all the same kinds of stuff that got the early future Willow youth group booted out of Park Ridge. Odd how history repeats itself!

I just saw the 'Catalyst' conference e-brochure and just about spilled my drink. I love Eugene Peterson, John Stott, and Donald Miller, so how could they lower themselves to be apart of such low-brow marketing (kind of like Christian cruises)?

What does that have to do with 'generational' ministry? Axis forces people to think in terms of marketing demographics, not people. Net, I'm glad Willow took the step.

Fundamentally, our leadership structures from top to bottom are out of whack. I don't how many 'cool', 'emergent' articles about being on the cutting edge start out with assumptions that you have to catch the people who are the culture influencers if you want to have influence (codeword for: no nerds allowed in church leadership, they must be 'cool' according to the world's standards).

We all have to move to New York, Seattle, Chicago, and LA if we really want to influence the culture.

Jesus came from Galilee which was the rural equivalent of West Virginia or Appalachia and he brought Jerusalem and the world to its knees. I wish we would choose leaders and directions based on their willingness to serve God at any cost rather than on their cultural resume.

Axis going away is a step away from that, but it remains to be seen whether the church as a whole can get away from the leadership mindset that equates worldly success and relevance with Godly relavence. The Church is still a place where socio-economic oppression and status is perpetuated... until we realize that, no model is going to truly work in God's eyes.

I really resonate with Shannon's story on one level. That sacrificing of self-interest is the key to multi-generational and multi-cultural worship. It says, "worshiping together is more important than worshiping my way."

There may be some congregations where GenX'ers are loathe to integrate, fearing their special service will be diluted. But the challenge for my church is getting them to understand how the only way they will survive is by sacrificing their own preferences in order to speak to a new generation, a culture vastly different from the one they were raised in. As mike commented, the resistance to integration often comes from older generations.

My continuing frustration is that they have not learned the need for diversity, for children and old folks and boomers.

And I think it's a bit of a straw man argument to say we should stop trying to please everybody. Clearly, what Axis was trying to do was to speak to a group of people in a language they could understand.

The challenge of inter-generational is not to please everyone, but to foster communion of the saints. Our hope is, in the words of the Psalmist: "One generation will commend your works to another; they will tell of your mighty acts." (Psalm 145).

Jay,

The problem is that the true gospel isn't being preached in many of these "seeker" churches. Instead, cute phrases such as "God has a wonderful plan for your life if only you'll let him into your life" are used. No mention of the horribleness of hell. Sin is rarely mentioned, and if it is, it is recoined as a "failing". Is this what it means to be relevant? To take the hard edge off the truth because it seems offensive? To come up with "new" descriptions for centuries old Biblical terms that describe exactly what God intended them to describe? I am so sick of hearing that we "have to make the gospel relevant" to today's generation. The Gospel, when given in its totality, will always be relevant and will always accomplish the work that God intends for it to accomplish.

I love some of today's contemporary music, but I don't need to be wowed by the hottest praise band on stage, I don't really care if the speaker seems "hip" with his untucked shirt and earring. I want simple, straightforward teaching from the Scriptures that isn't watering down the Gospel by eliminating point-blank discussion on the horribleness of an eternity in Hell without Christ, the exceeding sinfulness and depravity of each one of us that condemns us to such an eternity, and the absolute holiness of an Almighty God who in His justice sacrificed His own Son in our place. This salvation is received only through repentance and faith in Christ.

I'll tell you what I am discovering...this generation is looking for spiritual leaders who will quit seeking to be "relevant" with the Gospel and simply stand up there and boldly proclaim it without fear or compromise. These are the churches that the next generation will flock to - and they won't care if the speaker is wearing a tie and wingtips.

Dan-

I have to say that I have a hard time discovering at any point the Biblical connection (with context in mind) between the idea of the Gospel and it's apparent polar opposite, an eternity in hell? It's not that I don't believe in Hell, but I think the Gospel is more than just making sure people don't go there. It seems as if Jesus' preaching of the "Gospel" had more to do with subversion, breaking the cycle of self-immersion, and restoring the lives of people through feeding them and healing them. Hell, if we see Matthew 26 correctly, is for those religious people who DON'T follow Jesus' lead, not those who don't know Him. Maybe this is far fetched, please let me know. It does affect our discussion here a great deal.

I think perhaps the wedding of patriotism and theology/ecclesiology has more to do with the corruption of the Gospel than people not knowing the "reality" of Hell.

this is an interesting conversation because it really depends on where you're from. if you're from Willow, chances are you have a more subdued opinion of the shift. if you're from rural Illinois (like me) you have an opinion somewhere between curiosity and cynicism. the fact is that much of what we believe to be Biblically-rooted ecclesiology is modernist/Enlightenment centered and hyper-individualistic. the "this is just marketing crowd" is right, but so are the "relevant" folks.

it's life: context, context, context. Jesus was thoroughly Jewish and intended to complete the eschatological hope of Israel by replacing it. He spoke and acted in a context of empire--we would do well to let those ideas and more influence our understanding of Scripture and the church.

I attend a "mega-church" that focuses relevant teaching of today's problems, anything from debt reduction to finding a mate. But I notice on many Sundays scripture is not even mentioned. I realize that seeker churches are not threatening and you leave their cafe after having a Latte feeling good. But it appears since the inception of the church over 2000 years ago, growing in your love for Christ has gotten watered down. Even though I enjoy the programs and children's ministry of my church, I'm starting to wonder if I'm really growing in Christ or just going to church for the entertainment.

Nathan W. You nailed it.

Wow Dan...where do I begin. You say you are sick of hearing that the gospel has to be relavant. I guess I am sick of hearing people say that "seeker churches" are watering down or compromising the gospel. On the contrary, we are being creative to attrack spiritual seekers because they have been turned off by traditional churches. Our church consists of %80 unchurched people that are spiritually starved and are looking for God. We realize that need and also realize that traditional churches are not necessarily reaching that demographics. When I see unchurched people being saved and then their lives being changed, it is so authentic and pure when it comes to true servanthood. These unchurched conversions have no history of previous ways of worship so they see God in all his glory, not in a way we were taught in Sunday school 30 years ago. I like to think of our church the way Jesus felt for the lost souls and sinners that had no hope of redemption.
As for your comment about not preaching the consequences of sin, we do preach the wages of sin, but just dont hammer it down there throats every chance we get. There have been bible thumping preachers using this approach forever. We allow God to convict their hearts and the Holy Spirit to change their sinful life style. We prefer to reach people with the hope of Jesus' forgiving power, not through the fear of going to hell.

Jay,

So what i don't understand is how unchurched people who have no past history of the Church or of what an understanding of the holiness and worthy-ness of God looks like, are turned off by the Church. how could they be turned-off by something they don't know in the first place, or have no experiential knowledge of?

but beyond this questioning of semantics is the question of sustainability. is what is being presented as the glories of Christianity (or of following Jesus the Lord, or of having this relationship with God through Jesus, etc.) compatable with the reality of the walk of Christianity. or, is the courting true to the marriage?

and i guess that's a question for 'emerging' and 'traditional' churches (neither of which, by definition, i have a problem with - my bone was with this idea of an 'attractive gospel', which i think is a dangerous idea).

The story of Axis is a case study of the weaknesses of the institutional church in the post-modern world. Change happens too quickly for such a large institution to adjust. Culture is no longer passed from one generation to the next. The mixing of two generations is as difficult as mixing Jews and Gentiles in the first century. Willow Creek wanted to start a new ministry but perserve the same institution. They thought that by changing the music , the liturgy and a few other cosmetic changes they were thinking outside their box but the needs of the institution still restricted them. I compliment them for trying. However, their lessons should tell leaders that a radically different model must be tried in the future. One that is not stymied by a religious institution.

Great comments! Maybe culture does move too fast for the traditional worship center (Church). Personaly Willow's service still appeals more to my parent's than myself. The age of the teachers is less important than the life changing message. Ministry is more than the service though. It community, spreading the good news, and serving our neighbors.