I think that the key word here is “balance.” Sares is correct in pointing out that legalism has pushed an entire generation (maybe more) away from the church. We must seek to cast off the shackles of oppressive legalism that enslave so many of our churches in North America. Sadly, I fear, many of these churches will die in their chains.

But why should the quest for “excellence” be equated with the scourge of legalism? Why should seeking “excellence” be considered a mere striving for image? I think this is a false assumption. In my church we do not strive for excellence just to “put on a show.” We strive for excellence in our ministries because God desires our excellence. He wants us to do our very best in the struggle of faith, not just our “better than” someone else. Like Paul urged in Colossians 3:23, “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” That is why we strive for excellence.

I was intrigued by his comment; “Twenty-somethings see a generation ahead of them in the church that cannot live well with moral ambiguity.” God forbid that we should ever grow comfortable with the moral ambiguities of postmodernism. It is our job to be the “salt” and “light,” pointing this morally ambiguous world to the truth of our Savior who said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” There is, indeed, freedom within the moral absolutes of Christ Jesus, much more so than in the undefined, morally bankrupt offerings of our postmodern culture.

Yes, let’s give this next generation the permission to struggle. But let us not cease pointing them down the “narrow road” of following Jesus … and that is what it is, a narrow, difficult road. I see tremendous hope in this next generation. I write about it regularly at www.missionmpossible.blogspot.com . Check it out, dialog with us, and let’s join together to help this next generation pursue the path of excellence and righteousness as they follow God’s will and call in their lives.

Good stuff...but it's not just 20 somethings. There are some of us older than that...looking for similar things.

Perhaps we'd show them we care more if we went to them...rather than expecting them to come to us?

On the other hand, my wife tells me I am oppositional/defian by nature, so perhaps the problem is in me and those like me...

No doubt I have a problem...the question is - is it all my problem? For many - it isn't a dislike of the slickness of a worship service - it's the absence of the cost. Where is Dietrich when you need him?

Very simplistic article here, I am sorry to say. However, it makes points, unintentionally perhaps, that are deeper than generational.

I, not being a boomer or a 20-something, think that quality is DEMANDED by young adults as far as I have seen. It is just that categories have changed. Slick may turn of young adults, but they really do not want a crappy nursery for their kids or flaky preaching either. They want community to be more important than spin. But, who doesn't? The difference is that this new generation does not want to sacrifice their relationships for a slick church program, but would rather be moved by a cause that transcends them.

This article actually is a decent slam against the Christian sub-culture, or ghetto. I think there are more than young adults being turned off by church. It is not a generational issue rather than a fight between those who view church for them and those who view church about the mission.

As a new church plant (last Oct.), we laid out our Core Values for the first six weeks of our teachings. Our first Core Value is "Struggle". I wish that I could tell you all of the stories that have come out of a simple invitation and encouragement to embrace stuggle in our spiritual journey. It seems odd, but the invitation is recieved with joy and relief, "I'm allowed to do that here?"

The response I get from other pastors is disbelief. I had a friend tell me that it was too negative and that it would build a negative culture. So far, I'm happy to say that he is wrong.

"Each week they are told about the standards they are expected to keep, and each week they are led to believe that the rest of the church is somehow keeping up. This "silence about the struggle" quietly drives young adults away from churches all over the country."

This is no doubt the scourge of American evangelicalism: Gospel-less, legalistic, self-help schlock. To put it kindly ;) Thing is, the solution isn't just to lower Jesus' standards, promote struggle and doubt (though they have their place), or "accept people just the way they are." The solution is--wait for it--the Gospel. The one that recounts that God, so unable in His holiness to accept crooked rebels 'just the way they are', reconciled all things (not the least of which being you and me) to Himself through Jesus.

So since Andy invoked the ghost of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, let us heed what he was so passionately convinced was the foundation for Christian spirituality: the cross of Christ. You can hurl stones at modern prigs all you want (Lord knows I have/do), but the upshot is you'll just create a new band of postmodern prigs. We ought to return to the gospel, that our Christian freedom would flow from the justification of the sinner, not just the justification of sin (eh, Dietrich?). After all, the 'good news' isn't that I can wear tattoos and curse and generally be a jerk, and there ain't nothing you can do about it. Is it?

Let's remember what the purpose for excellence should be. If I am going to a surgeon, I want someone who appreciated the need for excellence. The pursuit of excellence should help us, not enslave us. The church I serve at has many tattooed, lip-impaled, nose-ringed attenders. We all have come to realize that excellence is needed in areas so that quality care occurs. In time, even the mystic, emergent church recognizes that certain types of excellence shows love for each other as God's excellence shows love for us.

How is it that everyone who has gone before us is wrong and we, the 20-somethings, have found what is right? I am not saying that everything that those who went before us did was right. But, it certainly wasn't all wrong.

For all the talk among the 20-something/emerging/emergent church crowd about humility, there is an amazing amount of arrogance.

I'm sorry, but like previous posts all this seems to amount to in my mind is an Inspirational Infomercial. Sure there is inherent sincerity. There is even some good analysis of current conditions within the church. On top of that we have the ubiquitous personal testimonies from our satisfied customers. However, I see this article as representative of the status quo American ideal of 'marketing' (kind of like the 'Diet' industry) rather than 'ministering' the message. It is, quite frankly, nothing new and will fade into oblivion just like "seeker-sensitivity" is doing, and decades before it the "I Found It" campaign.

After Jesus ascended into Heaven the Church was born as the disciples gave themselves to waiting in Jerusalem for the "promise of the Father". We would tend to rather assume the immediacy of the Spirit's empowering than struggle with the question as to whether God is even in the very acts we would argue are being accomplished in His Name. We North Americans do not want to wait for anything. Instant gratification is the name of the game and this noble enterprise (among many) appears to be a well-veiled attempt to perpetuate this state of affairs.

Allow me to make a comment that I already know far before posting it will raise a few eyebrows (this is just one aspect of my prophetic gift! LOL...)

Seriously - here we go...

Every single time I read about discussions or articles or comments or opinions on this sort of dialogue, we ALWAYS end up talking only "on the surface" and when we do that, we totally miss the REAL issue...

This is NOT an "age" issue, as one commenter implied. It never HAS been and it never WILL be. Sad to say, the REAL heart of the issue has to do with a pure and sold-out, sincere and total SUBMISSION TO the power and direction and filling and moving of the Holy Spirit in our lives. That is IT. THAT is "the big mystery" to all of this.

Someone 65 can either stand with their arms crossed, brows furrowed, heart angered, ears covered, legs stiff, etc. 0RRRR they can lift their hands in total and unhindered praise to our Lord, Jesus Christ - and what CAUSES this to happen IS NOT HOW EXCELLENT THE MUSIC IS!!!!!!! The ONLY thing that makes a difference is how IN TUNE WITH the Holy Spirit that person happens to be. Same is true of the 20-something how claims they "can't stand hymns and the organ." This is just B.S. - again, sorry to say. We place FAR too much of an emphasis on production than our Bible and our God EVER intended. It is NOT about HOW we do it - it is about GIVING IN and SUBMITTING TO the complete power and filling of the Holy Spirit.

I have been at this ministry thing for about 35 years. I am not saying I am an expert - but I have seen SO MUCH in those years to lead me to the final conclusion that it is all about our worship of the Lord - our REAL worship of the Lord - that happens WITHOUT ANY choir, band, powerpoint, sound system, hot preaching, slick interludes, light shows, etc. etc. etc. And until we all finally and really BELIEVE this - which is not my idea, it is from our BIBLE - then we will FOREVER return to this "waste of breath" discussion about the pros and cons of worship as it relates to various age groups... ugh...

Please - BE THE WORSHIPER you are CREATED to be... stop playing in to the SURFACE stuff... it is a total waste of time and you will die regretting that you spent more time talking ABOUT worship, than you did ACTUALLY worshiping our Lord.

Good, good article. I know what you mean, and I'm not a 20 something. We do need to be authentic and struggle, and yes, silk ferns are gross and speak of how the natural, but imperfect isn't really allowed.

Even us 40-somethings fear we are not "good enough for God's family" at times. Perhaps that's why Mike Yaconelli's Messy Spirituality struck such a chord.

I had a recent epiphany concerning the words of Jeremiah in chapter 17 verse 14. "Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed; save me and I shall be saved, for You are my praise." The thought came to me, "He was not just stating facts; he was making a commitment." I remembered Nietzche's comment about believing in their salvation if they looked more like they were saved. (Something like that!)

Once again the memories of my own transformation from an atheist to an on-fire, door-knocking, witnessing, Christian came flooding back. Then the odyssey from a "holiness-or-hell" preacher who thought rock and Gospel were absolutely oxymoronic (and incidentally that rock was moronic)to a rock-on worshipper.

Someone mentioned "balance" as the cure-all for these generational differences in worship styles and church structures. I love a new definition of balance I recently read: "Equally extreme in all directions."

During my first trip to Africa I visited a unique church made up of three different tribes. Each group had a time for their style of worship. There were suit and tie wearing, solemn hymnbook worshippers and there were in-the-aisle, dancing, off-the-wall-chorus-singing worshippers. The thing that impressed me was that when the in-the-aisle, dancing, off-the-wall-chorus-singing group was worshipping, the suit and tie wearing, solemn hymnbook worshippers were in the aisle dancing. And when the suit and tie crowd was worshipping the in-the-aisle-dancing group held their hymnbooks properly and solemnly and worshipped with them.

Maybe when the church can really live the Romans 14 model of toleration and the "all things to all men" paradigm, the church can get on with its mandate to win the world.

To be or not be excellent, that is NOT the question. Rather, whose excellence?

Being part of a mega-church dripping in the call to excellence in everything, the strain on the staff was perpetual: Excellence more often than not meant the idiosyncrecies or definition of the senior pastor.

In an honest evaluation of the Greek word "arete" ("excellence" found only in newer translations, never in the KJV which instead uses more often than not the word "virtue"), it points to the personal character, behavior and value of a person. Not the certain look of people or structure.

When you try to force the word into into corporate church values there is an immediate collision: Ties or no ties? Suits or casual? White, Black or Brown or... Jesus? Artificial flowers or fresh flowers? Only professional quality singers or marginals? Replace slightly worn pews/chairs or repair them? Brand-name preachers/speakers in the pulpit or nobodies with a good message? Piano or keyboard? Hamburgers or tacos fundraisers? Culturally relevant sermons or expository? And on and on.

It usually comes down to the definition and values of the senior pastor and/or his leadership board.

That's the problem with excellence: It isn't that we shouldn't exhort people, young and old, to do everything as unto the Lord; rather, it's a fantasy and self-deception to believe that in doing so they have to look and act like whoever defines it and holds the power to enforce it in a particular church. Then, balance is judged by the holders of the scale, not by the Lord.

'Nuff said...for now.

The lack of honesty about struggle may be one reason people leave churches, but it isn't the only one. I would say the main reason people leave the church is selfishness versus servanthood. I grew up in church and wasn't that excited about it. But I want to live for Christ so I stayed with it. I didn't ask anyone to accomodate my age specific needs.

I have also seen the powerful influence of what parents teach. Parents who teach their children committment usually have children who are committed. I know 20-somethings who have stayed with church because that is how they were raised.

I think we need to honest about struggle, but not abandon standards and committment. Jesus was real open with sinners and their sin, but he confronted those who should have known better.

I can totally attest to what was said. We crave honesty, and want the "meat and potatos" of the bible, not just the topical stuff. We want to LEARN, not just know how we should be. And I'm not saying that it's just 20-something's that want that, I think it's any Christian who really wants to learn and understand this life, Jesus' life, and what has happened, and what we can truly do in our time here.

Just a few pennies to add. I think the real issue has nothing to do with things being slick vs. non-slick, "gospel-loaded" vs. "gospel-less".

Instead, I think its about being connected and enfolded meaningfully into relationships that allow for honesty and transparency to happen, and finding a community that validates that. It's about incarnational ministry of flesh and blood relationships rather than 'minister from a distance' marketing style of ministry.

The American church has been built on the 1 pastor for 200+ people pattern, and we've resorted most people to being spectators rather than a team engaged together in living out the gospel. As long as that is our default tendency with church life, then those out of the seat of power (and generation) will probably drift away from those in it.

I tell my co-workers that impersonal means of communication and promotion at our church don't cut it anymore. Everyone, but especially younger people, know the "cheese" factor more than ever. (That's when they see something and say "That's pretty cheesy and lame") They're savvy to it; They're also jaded about it. Slick marketing doesn't work with them, yet they are more media-saturated than any previous generation. That seems like a contradiction until you factor in the hunger to have authentic relationships, and a larger community that OKs it.

People want a place to be real, yet worship services can be done well with coordination and organization. It's what is going on behind the scenes of Sunday morning (meaning the church life throughout the week) that will influence what shows up on the stage on Sunday. If you're an event-driven church with a stale or lacking sense of loving community, then my guess is the image factor gets ramped up.

You know, after recently beginning to work with the young adults in my church, what I'm reminded of the most as I've begun to ask questions and listen is that really--you can do whatever you will do--excellent or not-and if you don't love them, they won't come. If you don't invite them, accept them, and show them that you remotely care, it doesn't matter how good or beautiful your gospel message is. We are Christ's hands--let us not forget to keep our arms open wide.

Young adults are leaving the church because we won't adapt our methods to suit their culture. Boomers sit back and "enjoy the service" or (probably more commonly) criticize the service while doing what they can to thwart any significant change that will enable the church to reach people for Jesus Christ. (Please keep in mind that I am a boomer with two young men.) As a whole, we'd rather be entertained that to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Christians have to be willing to make every effort to anchor their lives in Christ so that the methods and styles won't be the foundation of their church experience. Glorifying God by becoming like Him and bringing people to Him is what church is all about. I hate to say that we boomers will have much to answer for, especially those who actively resist change.

I am not near the 20 somethings. I know Mike and some of his ministry. It seems to me that what has been said by most of the commentators rings true. Yet, there seems to be something missing. Even in circles of high committed, Spirit-filled folk there is a wall. The simple word is "love" though how it is defined is critical. As I have worked with some of these 20 somethings, I find they are each very different. What they seem to long for is someone who will invest in them, give them time, listen to them, encourage them, drink coffee with them and/or suffer with them (when necessary). Perhaps the difficulty is that we "babyboomers" value our time so highly that we can't love effectively. We tend to "being efficient" and the "wasting of time" on people is difficult. Our hearts, (perhaps revealed by the time we are willing to spend) have to be for this generation and for the others too.

I like Eric's comment 'It's what is going on behind the scenes of Sunday morning (meaning the church life throughout the week) that will influence what shows up on the stage on Sunday. If you're an event-driven church with a stale or lacking sense of loving community, then my guess is the image factor gets ramped up.' It seems that younger adults and older adults as well need a place to belong. This is a universal desire. We need the body, the community of faith. I think that we have placed so much emphasis on the worship service (and making it extremely excellent) that we have neglected the 'messiness' of community that I find young and old need. How can we get that back? As a pastor, I need to help bring back community in my church, and that means the 20 year old and the 60 year old need to hear from one another. They probably have more in common than they think.

As a tattooed and pierced PK with a heart and a calling to seek revival, not only for my own life, but for America, and Colorado Springs, CO (where I live), I think what is missing most of all in our lives and in our churches is living in the context of:
the freedom of Christ. Is God wholly our King? Wholly our Lord? Wholly our Savior? Wholly our Redeemer? Wholly our Friend? Wholly our Lover? Wholly our Master?

As a 28 yr old who has a BA in Biblical Studies and is enrolled in a MA in Spiritual Formation I am burdened by the fact that many of my friends are not and at this point will not attend a church service. This includes a lot of the people that I graduated with, especially those with theological degrees.

Instead they have left the church, but not Christ, though many of us, including me have thought about it and at times wished that we could have left our faith at times given how we have been made to feel in church.

My heart is heavy with the fact that most of my friends refuse to attend church, but I do not believe that the answer is to segregate our churches by age or musical style, which is why I like Sares approach of hitting a key fact in many churches that I have been a part of during my 12 years as a Christian: pretending that everything is ok.

The church that I am currently in has allowed me to run a Sunday School that has a support group format where we all talk about our problems in life, with people, work, God, religion, etc. We speak about this in a very honest way, without offering advise or answers to anyone in the group. About half of the 20 somethings in the church participate in this group, but we have many people in their 30's, 40's, and 50's attending this group on a regular basis.

So that is where I am at. I guess I tire of these conversations because somehow many people hear criticism and instead of deciding if the criticism is justified or not many react as if it is somehow personal. I think that Sares has a point in that many churches will not admit that they have faults and the leadership will not show that they struggle with anything. One of the things that has kept me in a church that is primarily over 40 is that I was in a renovare group with the pastor and some key people in leadership at the church (all within two months of first showing up, and the group wasn't created for my wife and I, but we were asked if we were interested in it) where they were open and honest with their triumphs and failures in their walks with God. It was eye opening and honest and gave me a level of trust in them that I would have kept from them because of my past hurts with the church. If you want to respond back to me stop by my blog www.knowtown.com/epicjourneys and leave a comment, because after the comments already left and comments left on some of McLaren's posts I will probably not visit this comment section again.

Thanks,

Dwight

Maybe the problem with young people not thinking that time tested methods are relevant is with thier own thinking. They need to conform rather than think that thier "feelings" matter at all. What does some punk 20 something know about anything? Very little. But rather than shut up and learn, they think that the problem is with every thing other than thier own warped worldview (which much of the blame can be laid upon secular pop culture).

I agree wit the fact that people with tattooes and piercings should be made to feel comfortable in the real church. Jesus was with those who were unconventional - those types of people are fun to be with as they are comfortable with who they are. It is heart attitude and not outward appearance that should count anyhow!

Isn't the great thing about God's church that it is different wherever you go? Just like people? Some love a smick and "excellent" church, others prefer a small and intimate group, and yet others a liturgical style.

Hey, God made us all different and had the nous to make the church worldwide different. Let's not fall in to the trap of criticising a church style we don't like. Just find one you do and get on with the real stuff.

:-) Pastor David Peters, Ourimbah Community Church, Australia.

I don't believe authenticity is generational. Take fashion as an example, are purchased ripped jeans more authentic than having to wear the same pair of jean until you wear a hole in them as my parents generation did? Which generation has more authenticity?
Mega-churches don't become mega because no one is going. Why throw stones at communities of people who are being true to who they are to reach their communities. It seems to me, it is the height of hypocrisy to start defining what authenticity looks like. I just don't understand why we can't talk positively about what we are doing to reach people, instead of having to shoot at everyone else along the way.

Why is it wrong for me to "struggle" through what it means to be a biblical church leader trying to reach my community. If some of those in the emergent community would practice what they preach and give "freedom" for church leaders to be who God has created them to be as opposed to defining what that freedom looks like maybe, their message would be more helpful. How about just a little encouragement for each other. Lets define Authenticity as being consistent with who God has made us to be, whether that is ripped jeans and a tattoo or plastic flowers! Just a Thought

I don't know what the answer is, but I feel that our world is in trouble because we as Christians have not followed the teaching of the Bible. We do not stand up for moral values, we do not stand up for God and His "Word", we live as the wolrd lives. The Lord says we are to be in the world but not of the world. Even our churches reflect the world; inside and out. I don't think we should allow the world to infiltrate our churches but I believe we need to meet the youth where they are at and make learning and loving the Lord our God a beautiful and wonderful part of their lives. I believe that if we go back to the basics of preaching and teaching from the Bible without sugar coating it and our youth see us trying to live a Christian life and then let God do the rest. Our youth and young adults don't like hypocrisy, not do like, "Do as I say not as I do" Christians. I know prayer changes things and I'm praying that we finally get it, it's not about a fancy church, clothes, cars, money; any of that. It's not about us; it's all about God and our relationship with HIM! It's personal!

The "60-minute church service" is for the believer -- to equip and encourage them to GO OUT and reach their unique mission fields (20-somethings, Gen Xers, Baby Boomers, WWII generation, etc.). The NT church is the ultimate seeker-sensitive example for us -- so sensitive to the need for the world to be redeemed that it was completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit to move in their lives during their gatherings in order to empower them to GO OUT of the building and reach their circles of influence. Pentecost only came because Believers we in one accord, fervently praying for Him to empower them accomplish a seemingly impossible mission -- GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES IN THE WORLD -- They were not having a creative team meeting to try and determine how to "wow" folks who walk into their buildings with lip rings in their services -- those folks, they knew, were to be reached "out there" through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Our gatherings are to be strange and peculiar because we ARE a strange and peculiar people. We are not OF this world -- but are called, through our overwhelming love for God and others, to be IN the world. So let's stop designing venues where "they come to us" only but let's be motivated by our time together as believers to "go to them." Our music, giving, teaching, etc. must be anointed and Christ-centered. After all, 1 out of 168 hours a week is not too much to ask for us as believers to gather "fueling up with Jesus" in order to spend the rest of that time "emptying Him out" onto others "out there."

Proclaim Christ and Him cruxified!

Wow, what a timely topic for me this week.

I am a 40-something who just stepped away from a church that is following the "excellence model." Why? Not because I view excellence in presentation (or even safety and convience in the children's ministry areas) to be fundementally wrong...after all worship should be a lifestyle outside the auditorium which to me should inspire us to do our best in everything we lay before the Lord! What does trouble me is a repeating trend to focus on excellence of presentation but yet "allow" mediocrity to be entrenched in the sub-level below the staff led worship celebration/leadership level.

I grew a great deal in this are from a great study on the deeper issues related to excellence through an audio series Chuck Swindoll did years ago: "Living Above the Level of Mediocrity; A Committment to Excellence" and would recommend it as a place to dig in as one ponders this issue.

In the meantime, even with no local body in my life, Christ rules my heart and life and I refuse to compromise by joining my peers in the Christian Ghetto. I will instead do as I did just last evening and spend my time in gatherings of not yet believers.

Sandy

This is all some rather interesting discussion. However, I think that we are missing a major point. We are witnessing the beginning of a generational shift taking place in the church.

The "seamless" church has left little if any room for God. As a forty-something I am frustrated with the church's consistent unwillingness to honestly dialogue about the issues that matter. Being a believer can be extremely messy. We have sought to sanitize Jesus and the Gospel to the point that it doesn't look anything like it did in the first century.

Perhaps that is what this generation is truly seeking. As a student minister and a parent I have grown somewhat disillusioned with the body's failure to deal with life. Much like those who have gone before us, we are trying so hard to make the Gospel into a catchy slogan, or a neat and packaged message with "four points and a poem" that it begins to lose its power.

It has been said by someone far wiser than me that our world needs to see a new apologetic. Our orthodoxy (right doctrine) must be fleshed out in orthopraxi (right practice). Thus, people don't care about what we believe unless they see evidence of it in our lives.

The days of compartmentalized Christianity are gone. As Steve Camp put it years ago, "If you want to show them that Jesus loves them, then you better be ready to love them too."

Maybe I am the only one in the Kingdom that struggles with being who I claim to be. If so then I'll just slip off quietly into cyberspace.

I truly believe that God has so much more in mind for the church than we have experienced thus far.

The post-mo gen are reacting against the polished perfectionism of their parents, and I see their "coming-out" statement everytime I goto down to Williamsburg, a small brooklyn town just a subway stop east of Manhattan, the new and cheaper bohemian joint. The sidwalks are littered with cigarette buts, the walls are plastered with awefully colored billboards, the bathrooms are covered with graffittis from the profound to the profane, and all of this decor matching the fashion of the young adults striding on its streets, loud chaotic colors but strangely artful. Perfection is out, messiness is in. And I know every generation imposes their self-image onto Jesus but I can't help but think that Jesus just might be more comfortable sipping coffe at Williamsburg and talking about the Kingdom than walking down 5th avenue.

Thaks for the interesting discussion.

I believe what young adults often miss most in many churches is a sense of COMMUNITY. They need genuine and meaningful relationships with each other, with older and younger members of the church and with pastoral staff so that they have people to journey alongside, encourage them, and pick them up when they fall. (and it's not only young adults that need this!) And this takes us getting deeply involved in the messy detail of each others lives. When people are deeply 'plugged in' we can compromise on all the peripheral stuff! Yes, we do appreciate a vibrant and relevant worship service, but without strong community, even the most 'excellent' looking church is only smoke and mirrors.

Many of these writers make good points; some based on experience and/or relationship (to God)and others on perception. Perception, good or bad, may seem real to those who express it. Lets respect even incorrect perceptions until we are able to spiritually demonstrate (in a kindly and loving way, that is) where the person's idea may not be correct and point him/her to a better understanding of what God has directed us to do -- not what "man" has devised for us.
My favorite among the many fine comments is the item by Dan McGowan. He sums it up very, very well.
Robert

As a 30 year old church planter...I find that many spend more time trying to figure out "how to do church"...than just doing church.

The reality is, most of the theory and comments are not new. Post moderns...check out the Jesus Freak movement. You see some of our "original thought"...already printed.

Doing church is not that complicated. Follow the leading of the Spirit... (period)

Why should we make holiness a bad thing?? The Bible says, "Be ye holy, for I am holy." (I Peter1:16) One thing for sure:Jesus does not change. He is against sin now just like he always has been. We should not accept sin into our churches and pretend it's ok with God. Someone truly wanting a relationship with God should be able to find Him in our churches. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin. No one wanting to live in sin will remain in a church that preaches against it. We should stand against anything that is against God. We should always try to get sinners saved. That is what God called us to do. God's Word does not change. We are the ones who are changing and taking on the ways of the world. Would a sinner be able to come to church and see anything holy? Or would they see something just like the world? If we don't have anything godly to offer them, why would they come to church?-so they could live their sinful life without having to feel guilty about it because it is accepted in the church. How sad.

I can honestly say that there is not much difference in most of the churches today as there would be in any worldly establishment. We need to have holiness in our churches-even in the way we dress. Rebellion is the main issue here. Churches are getting rebelious against God and His standards and taking on the standards of the world. It is so difficult to even read an article like this without getting sick about it. Morality and holiness should not be issues that are debated in the church. They should be expected-demanded-loved-lived. God demands holiness from His children. A church that condones immorality is not a church but a mere social club.

I'm not sure that it fits into your generational pardigm, but a pastor friend of mine made an interesting observation recently. She said that following WWII there was real feeling - at least in North America - from both the church and the cultural at large of a need to be "good". If we are good, then nothing bad (like the horrors of WWII) will ever happen to us again. It was a control impulse born of world out of control. Attending church was a way to "be good". Messy spiritual struggle didn't fit into this view, but today seekers don't see things in such black & white terms. The general culture moved away from the mindset in the next generation, but it's taken the church another couple generations to realize it.

In relation to the story of Reese and Keith, it seems interesting that one can follow Christ without regard to Romans 14.

If the author regards the "weaker", older members as true siblings in the Lord, then there is no juxtaposition of values. Instead it is a conflict that "family" needs to work through (true commitment to relationship).

For the sake of Christ, should we separate from those we disagree with on non-essentials? What does Paul or Christ make of "stronger" brethren holding the "weaker" in contempt? (Ro 14:3-4)

While I don't take issue with how someone looks, I struggle more with what seems to be a misrepresentation of Christ dressed in "holy clothing". Reese and Keith are "applauded" for being so committed to Christ, they left behind the spiritually "immature". Apparently, this older member was not as committed -- but I can't tell.

Note -- my issue is with the author, not the couple. I don't know why they changed congregations apart from what was reported. But the report commends something that seems to be a different Gospel than what Paul preaches.

Let's not forget this is not a new problem.

"After that whole generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel." (Judges 2:10)

I wonder what George Barna stats the ancient Israelites tapped into.

I think excellence is Godliness. God looked at everthing He created and said...it is good. I think in the church we tend to become sloppy in things we do, what is the attraction in that? I work with young adults in Africa and the strive for excellence I have found has no generation restriction. I feel sorry though for the preachers who concentrate on externals as Christ himself was concerned for the condition of the heart (internal state of being). Let us attract our young adults by being genuine, authentic and that means being like Christ in excellence, in love, in purity

To add a bit to an interesting discussion...
One of the things we talk about in our tiny little church plant is authenticity. Excellence in its common forms is not a particularly Biblical value; understanding that the Temple was made by the best goldsmiths and woodworkers and God is deserving of our best.

When I see excellence on the values list of any church, I am concerned that they are working from a cultural norm that excludes the inferior and honours the overachiever. Regardless of age, that is damaging. (Many churches that value excellence aren't dong that I know, just saying...) I want to be in a church that strives to be the best we can be as individuals and a congregation, but one that never sacrifices being sincere or real for that purpose. When excellence and authenticity conflict we want to choose authenticity every time.

I think it's a lot of the same thing that was written in this book about contemporary
Christian music. I think too many people are prideful in the fact that they do or don't have tattoos, or that they do or don't drink, or that they do or don't like 80s Christian music, instead of coming together on what God's word says...nothing more, nothing less. There's too much more and too much less out there...my 2 cents.