Some good thoughts here. I would dare say, though, that a lot of this article is about "image" and so forth. Who cares about wearing an MTV shirt. What is the substance we are after--life transformation? Are we so concerned with being "cool" or "winsome" that we lose the timeless mystery about our faith? I think that we need to be "winsome" and "cool" if necessary and have fun doing it. However, the focus of this being for the sake of the gospel can never be assumed--it has to be restated again and again.

One problem with the emergent church lingo is that it sometimes is more about what it is against (anything boomer and slick) rather than about what it is for. In this way, history repeats itself.

An interesting article, and I definitely agree with the idea that we need to be all things to all people. I love the idea of emo at church, and four or five years ago I would have loved a church with hardcore music (I'm mellowing out now). So over all I agree with a lot of things this article says.

But I find the comment about the MTV shirt kind of interesting. It's wierd that a little line like that would grab me, but it did. So forgive me if the rest of this goes in a different direction than the article did. (Or just skip the rest of this comment and save yourself the pain).

First of all, that Pastor Sares included this little story is interesting in itself. I'm not quite sure why he did.

And secondly, I'm not sure why he needed to point out the fact that the person who had a problem with it was Christian-college educated. It felt like he wanted me to think "Oh, THAT'S WHY this guy had a problem with it."

Perhaps he had a problem with it because he had been taught to think critically about what it means to live as a Christian in our culture.

Back to the article. There was a disagreement about whether this shirt was morally acceptable or not, and in the end, it was judged okay, because it helped the speaker appear more "winsome." Wearing the shirt was okay because it helped the pastor connect with the crowd.

I have a problem with this line of thinking. I mean, being winsome isn't really a justification for anything, is it? The pastor could go up there with a beer in his hand -- that's not a sin -- and this move could have made him seen hip and edgy (and winsome) to his audience too. But the bigger question is: would that have been the best decision for him to make?

I'm a Canadian, and our main music channel up here is MuchMusic. MuchMusic features videos that objectify women, glamorize violence, and condone a lifestyle that is often offensive to God. When I watch it (and I do) I frequently need to flick the channel away from more objectionable content. I would guess MTV's standards are not much better.

So is it too much to ask that the pastor not wear an MTV shirt while he preaches? There is freedom in Christ, but I don't think this is the kind of freedom the Bible is talking about. Despite the fact that MTV is cool, I think Jesus might have had a few problems with it, and with what it all stands for.

Now, I know we are called to enter into the midst of culture and reach people for Jesus. I get that. Sometimes that means doing things that make other Christians uncomfortable. To me, this sounds like following Jesus. But we are also called to be holy in the midst of that. You know -- like Jude talks about in verses 22-23.

I wonder if one of the reasons some (not all) ministries are able to draw young adults is because we are telling them the message they want to hear. We are telling them "You can be a Christian and still be hip by this world's standards. You can watch the same tv shows, go to the same concerts, but do it knowing that you can go to heaven at the end of it all."

This is different from the message of denying yourself, taking up your cross, and following Jesus.

I'm not saying this is the message of Scum of the Earth Church (I know nothing about it). But I do see this form of Christianity subtly being pushed from other places on young adults.

Another note. I studed youth ministry in college (yes, a Christian one) in the late 90's, and I kept reading about how kids went to youth until grade 12, and then "graduated from church" and never came back.

Aren't the kids that were reached by 80's youth ministry the same ones that quit going to church after they graduated high school? Could it be that they were they drawn to the youth ministries in the 80's because they were "hip and cool" and as soon as church wasn't "hip" they quit going?

I could be really wrong in all of this, and that's okay. I just think these are things worth thinking about. From reading these last two articles, I love what "Scum of the Earth Church" is trying to do.

But let's think these things out. We are called to preach the message of Jesus, and to be relevant. But following Jesus doesn't equate with being cool.

So the argument here is that MTV t-shirts, emo styled music, and Sunday night worship times are the keys to reaching the next generation?

When people criticize Scum of the Earth for those things, they miss the point. The important thing about Christian gatherings isn't the time, the attire, or the instrumentation. What's important is a community of believers living lives transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Just because other people miss the point, we don't need to keep the level of discussion at a mundane level. Or put another way, it's not like Scum has found the "formula" for reaching young adults. It's that they have identified their calling and are purposeful in following it.

The core reason many churches have trouble have trouble reaching young adults isn't a lack of style--it's a lack of purpose, a lack of mission.

Dude,

There is NOTHING beneficial about MTV.

Jesus connected with the crowds in two ways. One way was when He met people's physical needs. Whether He was feeding people, healing them, or producing some really great wine, he attracted a crowd.

The other way was with his message. That He is God, and we are sinners, and that we need to repent and believe. Of course, that's what got him killed.

I hope that after you have winsomely connected with the crowd, you have the courage to give them His message.

While reading both articles my mind kept drifting back to Ecclesiastes. Are the issues at hand here any different than what any generation has confronted? Now think about it, our basic needs aren't changing because we've made it through another century! What brought you to the church?

I'm mystified, in the circles I run I see a great mix of both old AND young. The only thing I see in those churches that are struggling, is that the Gospel is not being taught! Programs, presentations, buzz words and other slick ideas do nothing to bring in the youth. It's not that hard to figure out when one reads the Book Of Acts. If you're overwhelmed with weight of bringing the young folks in, I think then you need to get back to basics. Because the basics don't change anymore than God has changed.

I often wonder how the apostles ever made do without large screen projectors, power point presentations and big name entertainers! I often wonder if Paul ever struggled with bringing the youth of his generation in the fold. I think not!

Strong thoughts all around. The quest for timelessness is a healthy one in the Church – what rings true in approach for all time and people?

Love does top the list of timeless approaches, it seems, wearing an MTV shirt or a suit and tie. "Becoming all things to all men" is a positive biblical statement giving us boucoup room to stretch our wings and be something real to many – real love, real compassion and living truth.

Let's face it. In reality, we in the Church are pretty jammed up when it simply comes to realizing who we ourselves are. Our friend probably didn't wear the MTV shirt just to become an access point; he probably likes MTV. Beautiful. He and his community need to care for his spiritual life in the face of his passions like my own need to care for me in the face of my passion for anthropological studies.

Spiritual possibilities for growth or reversion aside – I think Christian leaders just need to be who they are, all the time, and the rest of the Church. Then, maybe Christians will do the same, and become access points for the "passion tribes" of which they are a part. Right now, we're still trying find out who we are.

Some decry that journey as selfish and "me-centered." But for those of us tired of a worship to God that flows many times from lifeless, confused and even hollow identities (I include myself in that camp in my worse moments), a richer worship born in both God-discovery and self-discovery is yet to come – at least in this generation of Christians.

Very interesting observation, that the current buzz of progressive Christianity is youth groups of the 80s all grown up.

And (Rich) as for the common hit line "more about what it is against...rather than about what it is for", yes, to some extent seems true. But in the midst of buzz and hype (that will last for who knows how long) it's refreshing to see a generation of people following Jesus really doing things. Yes, much talk might be about articulating the fors and againsts, but (as far as my church community goes) we hope to be defined by what we are doing in loving the world around us and living the best kind of lives in order to join God in redeeming everything.

In the midst of all this emerging whatnot, I'm anxious to see what happens when all the teens and twenty/thirty somethings jiving with this all grow up...

The problem I have with the idea of being 'winsome' is actually the problem that I know Emerging churches - or 20 somethings - have with the whole boomer generation - "inauthenticness" (Yes, I know this isn't a word in the dictionary : yet.)

Really, I can't handle Christians who are trying to let everyone know that "Christians can be cool too." Being winsome for me means 'be what's cool' but it doesn't mean 'be yourself' and being yourself is supposed to be the whole point! I'm tired of Christian music that 'sounds like...' or Christian churches with skate parks because 'kids want em.' Rather, I think, get a job at a skate park down the road and evangelize there through relationship. I know that things are perhaps a little more complex than that, but Jesus never appears to be anything else than himself, and - as we know - tends to just hang around at public places rather than having neat programmes for people to come to.

If the pastor really DOES watch MTV and Punk'd, well, then cool, he is just being himself. If he wants to wear an MTV T-Shirt because he likes MTV, and likes his shirt, then fine. But if he is wearing an MTV shirt so that he can 'win the crowd' he is merely doing marketing and taking up a programme driven Christianity that the emerging church is so dead set against.

Maybe, all that the Emerging church is against, is the old programmes - we don't want suit or tie (or, orange suits and yellow ties like in the 70's and 80's) but rather we want Converse Sneakers and a T-Shirt that says "As Tall as Lions" because they're the latest and greatest underground band (I mean, I think 'As tall as lions' are undoubtly brilliant, but if I don't like them why should I wear the T-Shirt so that I can 'connect' with the crowd?)

Will we simply exchange one programme for another in the end? Please, let's not do that. Rather, let's seek out the Biblical Model for church and do that.

All of the 11 eldership couples at my church have an EXCELLENT relationship with the 20 somethings, not because they wear the right clothes, or because they know what 'dodgy' or 'stoked' means, but because they are simply themselves. Yes, they are very gracious to most us when it comes to our dress - and our struggles. They are certainly not tolerant of sin, but they are very gracious when a 20-something goes to them looking for HELP in their struggle. I mean, we can't just TALK about our struggles, we also need to have leaders that can help us in our struggles - most of them went through the same things anyway, just in a different form (but, drugs and sex and everything else has ALWAYS been around.)

Ok, I don't want to write a full article of my own here, nor am I judging the guy about the MTV shirt - but 'being all things to all men' does not mean that you can no longer be yourself - or that you need to package your image correctly to win the crowd over. It means, simply, that you are able to adjust and fit into any culture- in other words, you don't force the Zulu's to sing traditional English Hymns at church. You let them sing their worship in their language and in their style. You can dress like them, I guess, if you REALLY thought it would be beneficial - but if you're white, a white man in traditional Zulu wear just doesn't look quite right. Please, please, let's not employ marketing and all that to 'connect' with the masses, let's rather just be ourselves and trust that if we lift Him up (not our ideals, philosophies, theologies, views on tattoo's) He will draw all men to himself.

What's significant here is that churches of America today reflect the tribalism that permeates our culture. Fortunately the Spirit can work regardless of our social context, but rarely does he work outside our social context. (Remember your favorite godly OT polygamist?)

Sares’ observation about 80’s youth ministry is an observation about tribalism, which has been on the rise in America for quite some time. The gospel reaching into various tribes has resulted in special-culture churches: biker churches, punk churches, suburban republican churches, etc. the homogeneity principle of church growth is reflected here. The mission field has come here. The natives are covering their bodies with tattoos and piercings that identify their tribe. And, they are our children.

So, let’s not put down any church that is reaching people for Jesus, whether they have silk flowers on the platform or tattoos & nose rings on the pastor. Let’s celebrate that the Spirit is at work.. This requires a spiritual and cultural maturity that acknowledges ones own values and recognizes God is at work despite the different values other tribes. Finally, let’s ask the Spirit to give us a love for others that transcends the differences.

Great post. Maybe one of the underlying beliefs of so many church folk that culture should be undermined ought to be reexamined. I don't see Jesus overthrowing culture . . . heck, he was part of his culture. To extract people out of their culture is simply impossible. And to enforce a contrived church culture on people who are not part of that culture is artificial and shows a lack of integrity. Funny how we don't have any record of Jesus telling tax collectors to stop collecting taxes, nor does he tell Pharisees to stop being Pharisees. Instead, he says, "Love your neighbor. Love your enemy." We might be well served to take that advice. Blessings...

Interesting article. I do very definitely see a link between the people in the youth groups of the 80s looking for something new, + now many of those same people driving forward emerging churches. Although I am not sure this is the case yet, there is a grave danger that non-church people will view the various emerging churches trying and failing to be hip + cool. This is how many of the youth groups of the 80s and today are viewed.

The reason?

As Dan Wilt writes in his comment, "I think Christian leaders just need to be who they are, all the time...Then, maybe Christians will do the same, and become access points." Having done extensive research in the U.K. + U.S.A. it is clear that people, young + old, aren't looking for 'hip + cool' but for authenticity in individual people and their expression of Christ.

I think we need to be careful what we do about examing the past. What is the motive? Repackaging a message?

I think what we learn is to be authentic but not sin.

The issue of culture is all too vague. We need to be careful there too. Culture is often used to trump scripture. I simply don't agree.

I have found that those who are so willing to accept and tolerate other cultures seem most intolerant of mine.

Just an interesting side note. Did you know that Solomon's Porch and many other "emerging churches" are actually part of larger denominations?

While there is a lot of reaction against mainline denominations within the conversation, there is also a great deal of respect for what is good and beneficial for the whole. The emergent conversation tries to not fall into the same trap as the reformation in that they do not want to throw away everything in order to reinvent themselves.

Dear All:

Something I've learnt from ministerial experience: judge not solely on the behaviour, but do weigh the heart behind the act. We are to be in the world but not of it, and that takes tact. If we exclude ourselves of the world and make Christianity an "elite club" I can't imagine anyone wanting to seek God - or rather I can't imagine anyone wanting to seek God come look for us. However, if we were to behave just as the world does, I guess we'd just be diluted saltwater.

To be salt we must be the ones who are making a change, and not the ones being changed; salt is the garnishing that changes the flavour of the food, not the other way around. However, to be effective salt we must have contact with food! No one eats salt; people eat food with salt on it. I believe many young people will reject the Gospel if it were not presented to them in a way that they could "accept". As a youth myself, if I may say so, I felt most comfortable when I was able to express my youthfulness and yet not be condemned or judged because of it. I can't imagine if in the early years of my dedication to Christ I were required to act prim and proper - not that it is wrong, but that it would be unnatural and is in the first place not central to the teaching of the Bible. There is a place for respect and all, but beyond our actions God looks at the heart. Mind you, I'd be acting prim and proper if I did. Acting. Which is rather hypocritic - ouch.

We must be careful not to walk the footsteps of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Man by nature looks at the outside, but God searches the heart. May we as His Church too value the motivation and passion more than the action.

Philip. =]

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." If we lift Him up, those who have an ear to hear will be drawn to Him regardless of whether we wear a suit and tie, a tatoo, use a power point presentation, a guitar, an organ, drink latte or coffee, meet in a home or a newly built cathedral. Many a grandma has led a twenty-something to the feet of Jesus. Our biggest job is to be willing vessels for the cause of Christ and to remember that when the message of repentance from sin is preached, the world just ain't gonna love us.

Hey I think your artical is refreshing! we need to keep it real, and the doors open to all people because that is being Christ like, he did not put a dress code out for us to follow to be accepted - but he did tell us to LOVE, and BELIEVE, Holiness is a inward thing-God looks upon the heart, not the external or the t-shirt we are wearing, he doesnt nit pick! Tomorrow is Fathers day here in Australia and I will be leading the worship wearing a Homer Simpson T-shirt(it also says LIVE BIG) and the rest of the worship will be wearing super hero T-shirts, paying Tribute to all the Dads,they are heros, and to the one true hero of all-JESUS CHRIST who gave himself for us all(whether we be emos,nerds,young,old or whatever) the theme of the morning is giving your life to him,who saves us, the T-shirts are a fun thing- we are allowed to have fun are we??

Every time I read here, it seems like the controversy is over methods and programs. I think that if people meet Jesus and feel loved, they won't care if you have 'bad programs' or no programs.

Also, Jesus wasn't cool. He is the most perfect, awesome, wise, wonderful person, but not cool. Isaiah 53 says He had no beauty or majesty, and that he was despised by people. I think that trying to make Jesus seem cool, only makes Him seem fake and less than He is. Trying to make Christianity cool makes it into a pathetic servant of our culture, rather than a countercultural light in a dark world.

If we focus on Jesus and do what He wants, we won't be popular, but we will be effective.

Cheers

I think this article misses the point. I'm a young adult (23) who has been going to church all her life. I have struggled with my beliefs and the question of whether God really exists for almost ten years. The reasons for this struggle have nothing to do with the style of preaching or music played in the church; I simple have not connected with God.

Reading the Bible and praying everyday hasn't helped, nor has going to church every Sunday. I find that a huge problem is that other Christians I have met cannot answer my questions. They simply say it's God's responsibility to come to me because I'm doing my part and trying.

Most people of the my generation and younger are realists. I think the majour reason young people do not stay with a church or go to one at all is because we are unable to find a connection to God there.

Dressing casual isnt enough now. Amazing how the author relativises MTV. Not everything on MTV is good? Actually MTV promotes evil,where just so desensitized in our TV addicted, greedy hollow culture! One could argue, why not just go the whole hog and take drugs, smoke weed, pierce our tongues, in fact be just like them to be "winsome." I believe you need to become all things to all men but there is such a clear distinction between that and wearing the symbols of evil and rebellion so that they think your cool.

What is the difference between a preacher wearing an MTV shirt (appealing to a culture that glorifies sex and drugs) and a preacher wearing a business suit (appealing to a culture that glorifies greed and materialism)?

The problem as someone noted is BOTH groups are focusing on image. My wife and I are reaching the teens and twenty-somethings of our community. She's the "cool mom" - attractive blonde. I'm the preacher/computer nerd. That doesn't matter.

What matters is the young people of our town know that our home is a safe place where they are respected and loved for who they are, a place where they can crash on a couch and grab some munchies, a place where we'll cry with you if a)your Mom died b) you think you might be pregnant or c) your significant other dumped you. They know some of their behavior is unacceptable, but we also admit when our behavior is/has been unacceptable. Being "authentic" is not about clothes or style it is about loving people and admitting our own dependence on God and need for Jesus, our Savior. I doubt the Lord who told us not to worry about whether we would HAVE clothes, would want us to worry about WHICH clothes to wear.

Unfortunately I see in this the message of the world. You need to identify your target market, find out their desires, and effectively market to them. I'm not condemning the method as another poster has pointed out the hypocrisy of the business suit/MTV T-Shirt comparison. I agree with Scotty. Believers should be fed at church; non-believers should hear the gospel at church. Old and Young will both come together out of love for the Body of Christ and for a lost world. I'm not a Boomer, Buster, Senior Citizen, Gen X,Y,or Z. I am a Christian.

Interesting comments. I guess the one problem I have with this article is that I don't remember 80's youth ministry models as having that much impact. I'll refine my statement a bit - I don't remember 80's youth ministry models as being helpful, at least in the broad sense. I'm guessing current statistics examining the impact of youth ministry (and the disconnect of young adults from the church) support my contention.

"Winsome" and "relevant" reflect the same issue to me. The appeal of these words, at times, seems to flow from from a lack of ability to provoke a genuine hunger for the deep waters of the heart of God. An earlier comment by a 23 year old summed it up well - there is a cry for authenticity, not relevance, from the heart of a young adult. The critical question than, is "authentic what?"

Authentic lifestyles of radical holiness, fervent prayer, meekness and humility that reflects a genuine hunger for the exaltation of Jesus in all that we do, rather than western culture. At least, that would be my guess...

Young adults are looking for models of leadership that reflect fathers in the faith who are actually "doing the stuff" of wholehearted pursuit and obedience to Jesus in secret - a pursuit when no one is looking that bleeds into (disruptively and violently) every area of life and provokes the young adult to run alongside, after the high vision of true Christlike maturity. Where is the leader that can truly say, "follow me as I follow Christ?"

My guess is that such a leader would not need the tee shirt.

Of course, such a violently disruptive lifestyle doesn't help our church growth models. But it may produce truly fervent, long-term disciiples who are willing to be led on a twenty to thirty year journey of faithfulness, diligence, perseverance, and true passion for Jesus that seems to be lacking from even some of our best ministry models.

Even from the 80's.

I am 24. I go (occasionally) to a church nearby, where I'm the only person within 5 years of my age. The people closest to me in age are married with young children, and have completely different priorities and outlooks to me. The people younger than me are just starting high school, and probably won't be coming to church much longer.
I'd like to say I support the church and that I'm encouraging it to grow by my presence, btu frankly, I can't stand it.
I don't identify with anyone else there, and there's nothing keeping me there. I'm occasionaly rostered on to put up and change the overheads for worship, but that's about all.
3 years ago there were 5 to 10 of us about my age and a little older. Everyone else is already gone, moved on to other churches, not bothering anymore or rejected the whole idea.
The reason I still turn up every so often is because I run a bible study/discussion group that is nominally attached to the church. I'm the only connection that most of the people who come have to that church and also to any church.
We're a little non standard (to say the least) in that we will talk quite happily about nit-picky little topics for ages and not come to a single conclusion.
For us, that's an important thing, that we don't have to have a conclusion to a topic. We freely acknowledge that we don't have the answers.
There's not much that we get done, or anything, but it's really the only thing that's kept me going (and I RUN the group - not really healthy).
An important question to ask is not necessarily things like "are we addressing the the cultural outlook and identities of young adults?" but more "are we even listening to them?" We want to get involved, but on our terms, and God's terms, not yours.