Thanks David for saying this. It astounds me that some who claim to be literal biblicists insist on adding to the Scriptures and speaking where the Bible is silent.
"God made wine to gladden the heart of man"...
Just not pastors?
:)

I understand what you are saying, you don't become holy because you don't drink wine (or because of any action). However I don't think it's as simple as saying "not drinking wine doesn't make me holy - so it must be OK to drink wine." I also agree with you in that it's not OK to replace one vice (drinking) with another vice (food). Many of us do, but it's still wrong.

Admittedly, I'm old school and my denomination is very conservative on this issue. So I am sure that affects my views. But the Bible does prohibit wine for some people (John the Baptist comes to mind). The Bible does talk about not getting drunk (1 Tim 3:8. Eph. 5:18 and Titus 2:3) - I know a glass of wine at super doesn't make you a drunk, but it might be a slippery slope for some. The Bible does talk about how our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19) and I know that passage is about sexual sin, but if you're a temple, aren't you a temple all the time? Would you drink or smoke in the Worship Center? The Bible does say we shouldn't cause our brother to trip and it would be better to not eat meat or drink than to cause them to fall (Romans 14:21). I guess the point of all those verses is there is some Biblical indication that drinking is not always a good thing. So I am not sure I am ready to say "not drinking doesn't make me holy, so it's OK to drink." I don't think following the 10 commandments to the letter makes me holy either, but I still attempt to follow the 10 commandments. Does that make sense?

In any case, I know I am not to judge my brother. :-) Good thought provoking post.

What if the point of the "rules" that you mention are not simply to avoid falling into addiction what if they are part of taking a stand against industries that have caused many individuals and families (and in turn, our society) pain. We do after all support Fair Trade Coffee, right?

My, oh, my ... where are all of the "commenters?" It seems that no one wants to touch this one with the proverbial "ten-foot-pole."

This is a huge issue within the Southern Baptist Convention right now. Some of our agencies are using the "alcohol standard" as a measure of holiness and as a threshold of offense for exclusion from missionary and denominational service. There are many voices raised in opposition to what they see as "adding to the Scriptures."

I guess, as a pastor, that I simply wonder the most about the "double-standard" for pastoral leaders. Why is it that people within our churches who drink and smoke with regularity, or accept as close friends those who do, would truly "have a stroke" if they saw their pastor puffing on a cigar on the 18th geen at the local golf course?

Sin is sin. Addiction is addiction. Liberty is liberty. Our task and challange, a challenge that was addressed by the pen of Paul, is to find that balance somewhere between liberty and leading our brothers astray ... not offending them ... but truly leading them astray. I definitely do not want to lead my flock, my brothers and sisters in Christ, astray. Neither do I desire to be shackled by a list of Pharasaical rules from which Christ Jesus has set me free.
http://www.missionmpossible.net
http://www.missionmpossible.blogspot.com

As a pastor from a Holiness background, I am still surprised that our conversations about holiness seem to revolve around "subtraction" rather than "devotion." If holiness means a wholehearted devotion (being set apart) to what God is about in the world, how much violence do we do to the concept by insisting almost exclusively on issues of subtraction? I would venture to suggest that many who keep these so called "holiness codes" are desperately far from living lives that revolve around God's passion for the world. It's high time we joined Jesus in his work in the world which (correct me if I'm wrong here) seems to involve turning water into wine and hangin' at parties thrown by tax collectors and attended by prostitutes. I think this overemphasis on subtraction is what the traditional Holiness denominations are trying to correct with the langauge and vision of the Holiness Manifesto.

Every modern generation thinks it has arrived just in time to save the world from the hypocrisy of their parents.

Prohibitions popular in conservative churches grew out of historic contexts in which such behavior was seen as sin. Victorian Christianity reacted to the debauchery of the world around them with clear demarcations for outward righteousness. Drinking led to abuse and neglect. Gambling led to poverty. Dancing led to promiscuity. Tobacco…it depended on what part of the country you were in. Etc. There were rational and behavioral reasons for such prohibitions. They were rooted in the propensity for humans to choose sin. Usually they were designed to protect marriages, women, and children from the sins of the fathers. Clergy were selected from those who proved good examples. Very Pauline.

In the post-modern world, sin is relative and personal. People can easily (relative to the past) escape abusive relationships. The indivualization of sin has hidden its true costs. Moderation is the highest symbol of righteousness. Not too much food. Not too much drunkenness. Not too much righteousness. The morality of MASH often holds more sway than the New Testament, though the latter is used to christianize the former.

It makes sense, then that the next generation look for clergy who model such liberal moderation. A little wine or a beer now and then. A cigar with the elders to celebrate. A little flirting between the pastor and secretary. As long as you are mature enough to handle it.

Why can't we just be Biblical????

The Bible condemns drukeness - therefore its a sin.

The Bible doesn't condemn drinking. In fact, Jesus drank.

The Bible asks us not to make others stumble. However it is always difficult to know how far to go with this. Jesus obviously drank - and supplied alcohol for others - knowing that people could stumble. Martin Luther said "Men abuse both women and wine, should we therefore abolish women?"

The Bible says that the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. This means that Jesus is with us when we drink. This is no different to the disciples who had a drink with Jesus.

I go to a Southern Baptist Church in the Texas Hill Country, but I also joyfully tour the wineries and breweries springing up around me.

I know we need to be careful not to cause our brothers to stumble. But it seems to me that unhealthy denial just leads to hypocrisy. Discussing the complex freedom of the gospel may be more difficult, but the truth usually is.

I try to resist settling for easy answers like the ones Derek Webb sings on his recent (free!) album Mockingbird:

don’t teach me about moderation and liberty
i prefer a shot of grape juice
. . . just give me a new law

let no ml:et mptletLet not many There are a lot of fantastic comments here which seem to have covered this base from nearly all angles. I would add one observation about my generation (Boomer). We were all raised to avoid the BIG 5 sins: dancing, drinking, smoking, movies and cards. About college age, we realized we had freedom in Christ and that those things in and of themselves were not evil and many of us "jumped right in". Then we added to our list of OKAY categories. Our favorite one was divorce. It's now even OKAY for some pastors. After all, God wants us to be happy.

A generation later, we've added sex before marriage and homosexuality to our OKAY list as well as tatoos and generous use of profanity. All in the name of 'freedom in Christ'. In fact, we've decided that if we demonstrate any behavior that could cause us to be singled out from the rest of the world we must be a bad witness because we won't be attractive to unbelievers.

If a pastor wants to practice activities that are strictly prohibited by his/her "Holiness" denomination why not go independent and start your own church? Who needs those old folks anyway? (Oh yeah, they're the ones with the money, I almost forgot).

"My brothers, let not many become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment" James 3:1 EMTV

Of course, overeating is an acceptable vice. When was the last time you heard a sermon lambasting gluttony? Barely, and I've been all manner of Christian congregant (Lutheran, Baptist, etc.).

The closest encounter I've had with a pastor preaching against gluttony was a few years ago, when our pastor preached against the concept of gluttony, but skirted around using the actual word. Is the term the Christian form of kryptonite?

I propose that both gluttony and greed are two vices that reflect an American obsession with (and distortion of) the concept of abundance, which is probably why you will never hear preaching against either from the pulpit. It would go against the American cultural grain, so to speak.

This is comming from a late bloomer christian. I had to make up my own mind about drinking. But I really wrestled with the idea. I understood that I was no longer under the law. I was never a big drinker but I noticed that many times I would choose to drink when I had a crisis in my life. I am sure you all know who I should have turned to instead. Maybe my own coping devise delayed my coming to know our LORD? Then,growing up with an alcoholic father who beat my mother makes me not want to support "the industry". Then there is my son who couldn't understand why I would drink. What message was I sending him? Finally when I saw another new christian who formerly had a drinking problem taking a stand to turn down a drink, I saw with clarity that I could no longer drink. What if her seeing me drink made her turn back? I am under no law. I know that drunkeness is a sin and drinking is not. But I never want to jeapordize my brother or sister. How could a Pastor view it differently?

And smoking. That was the first thing the LORD freed me from when I surrendered my life to Him. No, no law, however, being a slave to anything except God must be a sin.

I am an English pastor, ashamed of my country when I am told that we have the biggest problem of drinking among young people in Europe. In circumstances like this I can only take a stand which corresponds with Paul's in his day: "If (meat) alcohol causes my brother to stumble I will never (eat meat) drink alcohol again so that I will not cause him to fall."

One of the things that I have always understood is that the water Jesus turned into wine at the Wedding Feast was "oy'-nos" or as my Strongs concordance says the juice of the grape!

In 1 Timothy 5:23 where it says ("Drink water no longer, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake, and for your frequent infirmities.") the word used here is "oy'-nos" or juice of the grape!

But if we look at say Acts 2:13 where people accused the early apostles of being full of new wine "gleukos", this means newly fermented wine!

Then again as some have pointed out that drunkenness and wine are used frequently. Of course in the Old Testament "yah'-yin" and "ti^yro^sh ti^yro^sh" are the words that are used to denote fermented or frothy produce of the vine, and this is what it is enjoined us that we do not take.

Please correct me if my understanding of these words are correct or incorrect.

As we all know and some have pointed out, alcohol is addictive to a large segment of our society and to hurt a brother by imbibing is not to show Christian Love!

Love in Christ
Peter

Is it better for us to model "holiness" to younger believers by abstaining from something that Jesus never commanded we abstain from, based on the "don't stumble your brother" passage? (as if the definition of "stumble" was just "having A drink" or "smoking", and that doesn't seem to be the proper interpretation, i believe.) Or, would it be more effective and more biblically balanced to model MODERATION for younger believers so that they can avoid falling into the so-easily-entangling trap of legalism that has saturated the American church and made us freaks in the eyes of the world? Also, it does nothing but continue to hinder the church in serving the poor and needy, being good stewards with what God has blessed us, and generally and specifically LOVING GOD's PEOPLE, because people can't get their minds off of these importent, yes, but SIDE issues long enough to pay enough attention to what God really values, and that's loving people and loving God.

Just a thought.

Peter, yes you are incorrect. Oinos is normally fermented grape juice. We are prohibited from getting drunk with oinos in Eph. 5.18, difficult to do if it was unfermented juice of the grape.
Divorce, sex before marriage and homosexuality, Melody, are vastly different than dancing, drinking, smoking, movies and cards or tattoos for that matter. Biblically the former 3 are not OK and are clearly inconsistent with new covenant practices. The latter 6 are not addressed nor considered as violating the New Covenant. Liberty comes, by the way when the Spirit is present. (2 Cor 3.17) The context being the glory of the gospel and why the new covenant of life is better than the old covenant of the letter and death. Beholding Jesus, not the law or practicing law living, transforms us into His image. (v. 18) Liberty draws people of all generations to Jesus.

Peter--

For what it's worth, Ephesians 5:18, which tells us not to "get drunk with wine," also uses "oy'-nos." Also, the word for "drunk" here is the same word used in John 2:10 when the master of the feast complains that the best wine has been held back "after the guests have had too much to drink" (NIV).

Quote: [As we all know and some have pointed out, alcohol is addictive to a large segment of our society and to hurt a brother by imbibing is not to show Christian Love!]

So is eating, but do we not eat so as not to hurt a brother who struggles with food addiction? I minister to people with alcohol problems frequently and will sit down and have a glass of beer with them while we converse. Virtually everyone of them has remarked that my ability to drink responsibly and to limit myself to a glass of beer was a witness to them. That I am willing to hang with them on their turf without being holier than thou, yet in control of my alcohol consumption always gets their attention.

Often, when we lead folks to Christ and they seek help for their alcohol addiction, it is our self-control without total abstinence that often brings them to being comfortable with us to talk about their problem, and ultimately leads them to ask us help them find help for their alcoholism.

In such a situation, a drink is not a stumbling block, but the key to opening the door to hearts.

I have come to look at the sin-in-the-church problem this way: When Christians engage themselves in being the hands and feet of our Lord to those in need, it takes their minds off of the things which tempt them to sin. Their focus becomes outward--benevolent--rather than inward--selfish. When we live for others, we fulfill the law, we find fulfillment and purpose ourselves, and we no longer look toward self-gratifying vices to fill that void which only loving God and others can fill.

When I changed my focus to missional Christianity and began reaching out to people in my community outside of my church, and got involved in global missions as well, I one day realized that I no longer struggled with the temptations of a lot of sins that used to plague me.

I have discovered that the more we can inspire and lead our congregations to be missionally oriented, the less time we have to waste on counseling them with their vices.

Show me a truly missional church and I will show you a people who have very little struggle with sin. Give people a passion worth living for and the worldly passions will be soon forgotten.

It goes beyond food abuse to other personal anesthesias in the Body of the Christ. There are sweet heroins more commonly known as Television (24, Lost, and House obsessions), Video and computer game bingeing, escapist reading, mass coffee consumption, internet browsing, blogging...

People often find "acceptable narcotics" and then have the stones to point out their brothers and sisters who have a pint, or a Cohiba as less Holy. We all need Grace and friends who tell us the truth. Great article, thank you!.

I've enjoyed reading through these many points of view.

Years ago when I attended a certain school I had to sign on to a list of 'community standards' which that institution decided was a good list of "dos and don'ts" that would help the student body live in harmony with one another, and before God. Not only was the use of alcohol, and tobacco prohibited, but so also was the wearing of jeans. Right away I can almost hear some people condemning this institution for its "legalism".

An interesting turn-of-events took place during my first year at this school. One day the president stood up and declared that the 'jeans' rule was going to be relaxed; the student body went wild with applause. He went on to talk about the use of propriety in relation to the way people dressed. Once the rule was relaxed, however, it was interesting to observe how the 'line' continued to be pressed. It almost seemed that certain people awoke an extra couple of hours early so that the denim paint would have time to dry before class.

How would things have been different if the rules on tobacco and alcohol were changed? I sometimes wonder if these issues mean too much to us. On all sides of the issue I wonder if we are not so much taking a position because of godly conviction than we are somehow more interested in attempting to justify our own proclivities. Perhaps we are asking "yes" and "no" questions to issues that do not have "yes" and "no" answers. Or, perhaps we are asking the wrong questions altogether. We prove our own lack of godly discernment and wisdom by being unable to safely navigate our way between the shoals of these "either / or" (in our minds) issues.

A less tangible, yet profound rule for our lives is found in the two greatest laws in the Bible: "To love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength . . . and to love our neighbour as ourself." Perhaps when we truly become impressed by this truth, then we will have more to say on "freedom" and "law" issues like the one above. Or maybe, just maybe, our godly actions will simply speak for themselves.

Great comments. I have often pondered these things while experiencing life as a campus minister for my particular denomination. We Methodists are a diverse crowd, but how to balance that fine line...There is a place for Nazaritic vows and "set-apartness" but what if we never get close enough to others so that it really matters anyways. "Fortress church" seems to be dying, while hanging on to a micrometer-at-a-time sinking Titan-ic of an operational philosophy and screaming the rules the whole way to the bottom. When I listen to young adults, the thing i hear most is a plea for people to be like Jesus, and although that can change depending on the viewpoint, that core concept must be addressed in our churches in all areas. Are getting close enough to the people, adjusting for morality within culture without loosing our core identity? Do we as leaders know who we are or did we just swallow the playbook? Just a thought trying not to regurgitate the previous posts.

Grace.

YES! Jesus drank wine as did many old and new testament saints. Why? Because at that time it was a LOT safer than drinking the water! So nowadays do we have the same excuse? If we take it this far, what's wrong with a shot and a beer?

It's interesting to note that the drinking of wine seems to have some sort of dignity attached to it. Personally I can't stand the taste of the stuff,BUT I love a beer with a plate of spaghetti or slice of pizza. And yet that very same beer is looked down upon by many christians that think nothing about having that glass of wine with supper.

Me thinks ya can't have it both ways....taking it to the next step, what is right amount to drink? Is one just right? Or maybe we should stop just when one starts to get a buzz.

I'll be honest, I'm a cheap date! That one beer I mentioned is enough to knock my on my fanny so,should I have it or not?

Hoping all are seeing my tongue and cheek thoughts here...and there is a bit of irony in all this!

I'm torn on this issue. I have seen exactly what alcohol can do by seeing what it's done to my family. My father is a drunk, and my sister lost everything because she's a drunk(her marriage, her kids, and her career). Is drinking wrong? No, absoulutely not. But, look at what it can lead to. I'd rather not mess with something that has that much power to destroy. My sister, never took that first drink saying "Hey, I think I want to be a drunk!" I think its a very slippery slope. By the way, I am over weight and I'd say eating is a vice of mine. I'd much rather be dealing with this than the other.

The legalism and hypocrisy is accepted and even defended because it is culturally and traditionally our way. This is a great article posted that challenges thoughtful believers.

Being drunk is sin--not drinking. Sex outside of marriage is a sin--not sex. Overeating is a sin--not eating.

So let's walk as mature believers. Of course we are cautious not to cause another to stumble but it is fair to at least discuss these things. Self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit--so lets give our church leaders the opportunity to practice it. our laws certainly do not assure that their hearts are submitted to and passionate for Christ and His kingdom.

And while we're talking about alcohol, let's include moderate use of marijuana, too. Just as red wine has some medicinal qualities (Paul knew that), marijuana can help with pain management. Marijuana does not kill nearly as many people on our highways as alcohol does, and it's not condemned in the Bible.

I don't drink but I do overeat.

Ahhh, the "to drink or not to drink" debate of old. Now I am one who abstains because, well, like many in my family, it caused problems. I grew up in a nasty multi-generational self-medicating and abusive environment which I still strive to escape from, but that's another topic for another time. I am a self-proclaimed former alcoholic and quit drinking when I was 20. 'Nuff said. My abstinance continually comes into question among many of my relatives who view me as a bit of a goody-goody because I DON'T drink and I go to church. Put the two and two together. But I just smile and continue to live my life through example and overall not make a big deal of it.

Watching others drink does not bother me. Watching someone get fall-down drunk for the sole purpose of getting fall-down drunk bothers me, yes. Brings back many strong memories. And there's plenty of psychology as to why people feel the "need" to do that. But I have never been on the fence when it comes to any type of abuse or misuse.

We need to remember that addiction comes in many forms, not just the smoke/drink debate. Does your eating / drinking / smoking / drug use / religion affect others negatively? Is it influencing or consuming your job, your family, your friends, your time? Is it the highlight of your day? Do other things get pushed aside? If so, then we have a problem.

Someone wrote: "A little wine or a beer now and then. A cigar with the elders to celebrate. A little flirting between the pastor and secretary. As long as you are mature enough to handle it."

A pastor flirting with a secretary being equated with having a beer? You've got to be kidding me.

"And while we're talking about alcohol, let's include moderate use of marijuana, too."

Again, this is a terrible comparison. Marijuana affects your clarity of thinking, period. We are to be under the influence of the Spirit, period. A (singular) does not have that affect on people.

Good grief I hate this argument.

If you have never had a drinking problem, you have little knowledge of the danger of one drink. I am a pastor for the last 20 years. Before receiving Jesus I was an alcoholic. Jesus changed my life, but I cannot drink. I know I am free, should I re-chain myself to see if I could handle it now? I know better.

I am not holy because I do not drink or smoke. I am holy because it has been given to me through the Blood of Jesus. No amount of rules will ever make us holy, only His blood can do that. Do I condemn drinking when I preach? Of course not. I do condemn being drunk, that is excess and produces behavior that is out of control.

Do I speak about overeating? Yes, more than about drinking. I believe in addressing the problems that we are beset with rather than what is easier to speak about. Overeating is a much greater problem in our church than drinking. We have very few members that have a drinking problem but many with an overeating problem. I do not condemn either. Instead I point to the help we have through the power of God and to the forgiveness we have through confession of sin.
Pastor Darrell
darrellcm@sbcglobal.net
www.lwmonline.com

Rob, alcohol also affects the clarity of your thinking last time I checked.

Either way you go, there seems to be no definite answer on either side.

If you are not going to drink, don't say that Scripture demands us not to and don't use the "grape juice" argument. Simply say you abstain because that is how you feel you should live your life.

If you drink, live according to the biblical mandate against drunkenness. But also be careful not to lead others astray.

Darrell: You SHOULD condem overeating. It's gluttony. Anything to excess is a sin. One dollar for a lottery ticket will not break me nor does that occasional (moderate) spending of money label me a "compulsive gambler." One glass of wine a month or week does not label me an "alcoholic." Why do pastors try to place sin in some hierarchy? Isn't all sin SIN? I believe in G-d's eyes, smoking pot to get high or imbibing alcohol to get drunk is just as bad as THINKING about how to sneak around with your best friend's wife without anyone ever finding out. Pastors need to stop preaching only what they "pick and choose" and start preaching it all! Partial teaching IS false teaching and pastors/teachers are WARNED about that in the Bible.

Here's what I consider to be the real question: "Why smoke, or drink?" While I must eat and breath to live upon the earth, and we procreate to multiply, I can think of no good reason to use tobacco or consume alcohol.

Why does the author feel he needs to drink or smoke? Why doesn't he ask to be allowed to drive 100 m.p.h. everywhere he goes instead? It may never harm himself or others, but it also may cause harm both spiritually and physically to himself and/or others someday. Because we have liberty in Christ is not a reasonable justification to do anything we desire. Without retort or deflection, because this really isn't about me, prayerfully consider the question for a moment-"Why use alcohol or tobacco?".

I'm interested in hearing the excuses and justifications, and yes, I've tried both.

Abstaining from alcohol and tobacco does no harm. It results in better life insurance rates! I have five reasons why I don't smoke or drink -- my five kids.

I have thought about this issue a lot as I am a pastor of a holiness denomination church. It seems to me that much of how we respond to the issue relates to our background, experiences, appetites and intentions. Additionally, I think the issue of Christianity vs. smoking, drinking and overeating is also cultural. In Europe, my continent of origin, smoking and drinking are not necessarily equated with sin. I don't smoke, try not to overeat (sometimes unsuccesfully) and drink in moderation. I don't feel any condemnation from God on this. I do however need to consider my brother in this process. One thing I do, since the Bible is clear on this, I don't drink while performing my responsibilities as a pastor. My encouragement, let's love one another, accept our differences, respect various interpretations and seek to honor God in all that we do. "Whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, do it all to the glory of God."

Wow! Here we go again...

As a pastor, I am very careful who I drink around. I have a beer on occaion--because I was brought up to repsect it, and drink it in moderation. Drunkenness is the same as gluttony, smoking everyday as an addiction is also gluttony.
I have enjoyed a good cigar--in fact, in most cases it was what broke the ice in a conversation.
And a good beer, or glass of wine with supper--all in moderation. However, never around someone who has had a drinking problem!
The Bible HAS to be our final arbitrator--not culture, not history, not some guys who came up with laws in the past.
Without fail, the ones who tried to convince me of the UNholiness of a drink, were obese, obese, OBESE. Bummer, eh?
I have made more progress in working with both re-commiting Believers, and NON-Believers by having a drink, then with this "holy refrain" from alcohol.
This shouldn't even be an issue--Bible says to not be drunk, and doesn't say anywhere to refrain 100%. I don't drink around a recovering alcoholic, of course. But at the baseball game, that hotdog tastes much better with a cold one.

Bible--the Word, Jesus, our final Arbitrator.
In fact, one clergy member down here in Texas is having a weekly meeting with 20-30 year olds in a bar! They all have a beer, and then talk about God! Awesome!-breaks down this 'holier than thou' attitude!

Just because we can, doesnt mean that we should! This lines up with the Apostle Paul's statement on things being permissable, but not necessarily wise. Is the issue at hand discipleship (me following Christ) or leadership (other following me, as I follow Christ)? They are quite different! In the latter case, even if I can handle something, it doesnt mean that the new believer can. What the church needs right now, is mature leaders. Leaders who are willing to lay down (count the cost), whatever it takes.

I did not mean that to sound like alcohol has no effect on clarity of thought. What I meant was to compare the effects of a joint vs. one drink is hardly comparing apples to apples.

A few thoughts from my experience – I’ve observed that personal convictions regarding drinking and smoking vary according to where you live in the world. For example, in northern America smoking is usually frowned upon. However, in the Deep South (especially tobacco country), many people smoke and have no problem with it. On one occasion, I even shared a short-term mission experience with a couple from the South who owned a tobacco plantation. They talked about it like they were growing cabbages.

I once heard J. Vernon McGee comment that while he was in Germany at a Christian convention, he observed a couple of very prime and proper German Christian ladies (with no make-up, by the way) enjoying supersized steins of ale at supper. I know a Christian lady in France who tells me that some Christians there (few though they are) enjoy wine with dinner. I once had an interesting conversation with a Christian fellow from Australia who was surprised to learn of the abstinence of the average American Christian. His comment: “I’ve got to ‘ear more about this! In Australia, all the blokes stop at the pub after work for a pint or two!”

I say, respect the culture and respect your body, whether it’s food, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, or whatever. And have some grace. For the record, I don’t drink or smoke and I watch my food intake, as I have a rather addictive personality. As Boris Veysman once said, “Physician, know thyself.” And this thought from Paul: “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.” (1 Cor 6:12). Methinks that bit about being “mastered”
holds the key.

Now I think I’ll go have a bowl of ice cream (chocolate, of course) and call it a day.

As long as we try to find laws by which to govern our lives we will continue to struggle. Paul explained to us that the law was given to show us how impossible it is for us to live sin-free lives, to control our human instinct for self-gratification and to be God-like. Jesus introduced a new dispensation. He died in order that we might be freed from the law of death; to liberate us to be directed and governed by His Spirit. Many have misappropriated this freedom and enslaved themselves again to selfish gain. If, however, we are sincerely motivated by love for God and love for others; if we enter into an intimate relationship with the Most High God, learn to hear His voice and truly seek His will in each situation in place of a global form of self-righteousness; if we become mature in seeing things from a Godly perspective and learn to choose Life and decide for that which will bring most honour to our Lord in each situation, then surely we will be able to put the emphasis of our lives into things that count for eternity and we will be governed by the Spirit and not by law and God will increasingly be honoured in all the earth.

Surely the question is less, "To drink or not to drink," than it is, "To love or not to love."

I was going to comment, but I'm just too tired of the legalistic blather.

Here's a novel idea...
How 'bout we just let the Bible speak for itself. :0)

Since the Bible says we're not to be drunk (idolatry being the issue), then I won't get drunk. To go beyond that is pure, unadulterated legalism no matter how you "uncork" it.

Hey LB,
Darrell DID condemn overeating.
Did you read his blog?

not just for pastors, for all believers. avoiding the vices of alcohol and tobacco are not good for you, period. too much salt, too much red meat, over-eating, its all bad. Not making an excuse. Peter talks about excercising self-control. It's also about my personal witness, its hard to explain as a pastor if i'm at out eating dinner and someone from the community sees me drinking. Alcohol abuse is destroying urban inner cities, along with drugs, and the abuse of sex. what's wrong with avoiding these things as a way of promoting better life?

The central issue on alcohol is that of inventing a rule that attributes drinking to sin or to indiscreet behavior which adds to the barrage of man-made rules that sour people on Christianity. Attaching man-made prohibitions creates a burdensome religion, one contrary to the joyous life Jesus preached.

We tend to regard drinking with suspicion. By our dogmatism one would think that Jesus went to the wedding at Cana to turn the wine into water.

Total abstinence has its roots in American Christianity; it's a tradition that has a way of controlling our thinking on right and wrong. We need to ask whether abstinence from alcohol is a people-made rule or a biblical one.

I had to come to grip with that question during my years of residence in several different countries. Why were evangelicals abroad drinking wine with their dinner? Don't they know it's sinful? I mused. I quickly learned that their culture viewed wine as a beverage that complemented and enhanced the meal; it was looked upon more as a food, not something to get drunk on.They were simply living in accord with their cultural norms. There was no question on connecting it to sin.

We tend to disregard this cultural phenomenon. An attitude toward wine on one side of the ocean is not necessarily the same on the other side. Or to put it more bluntly, can it be sin here and not there? Go back to Jesus' time and ask yourself if you would disgustedly get up and leave the wedding celebration at Cana upon seeing Jesus graciously providing more wine for the festivities, and doing so by means of a divine miracle at that. Might you have entertained such thoughts as, "Jesus, are you out of your mind? Miracles are for healing the sick, not for making wine, of all things"

What if you were a participant at the Last Supper? When the cup of wine (no, it wasn't grape juice)reached you, would you say, "No way! I'm not drinking that stuff!" Or maybe you'd react more subtly by simply passing the cup without taking a sip. I went to Greece with some American colleagues on a short term missions program. I know that during communion some of them were shocked out of their socks when they lifted the cups to their lips that contained wine

It seems important, given biblical instruction on liberty in Christ, that we protect that feedom privilege while at the same time heed biblical admonition about overindulgence (lack of self-control) or perhaps misusing liberty to cause a brother ot sister to fall. In that latter sense, who that person might be is left for each of us to decide. Setting up a rule for all to obey imposes a law of our own making.And I think we've seen enough of that kind of "Christianity."

Some Christians are similarly guilty with rule making on abstinence. They are so concerned about the possibility of someone's weakness that they condemn drinking altogether as well as judge the drinker as sinful or at best as insensitive and spiritually out of touch. I would certainly not offer a glass of wine to an alcoholic or to a recovering addict, or even drink in his presence. I recognize the temptation and danger for him or her. However, the Bible doesn't allow us to establish a rule on it to apply to everyone (except on drunkenness, of course). Some people make such rules, and in all fairness I understand their good intent. Excssive use of alcohol can be ravaging. But we must view it in the context of Christian liberty and avoid trying to make robots out of fellow believers regarding a human rule. Judging one's spirituality should never be suggested in this respect. A prohibition on alcoholic consumption exemplifies the subtleties of people-made requirements to govern the Christin life.

I hope you won't interpret this discussion as intended to encourage drinking. I am aware of the dangers of alcoholic consumption. Some people can't handle it, just as they show weakness by excessively consuming other kinds of liquids, such as caffeine-laden sodas or coffee. They even use food excessively, even when grossly overweight. They have lost self-control. They have difficlty exercising God-intended moderation that says, enjoy all things but always be in charge of your appetite.

Great reflection on a cultural issue that the church loss to extremism bequeath by the temperance movement.
Real tragedy has to do with the number of folks that I encounter who come from Baptistic/Holiness backgrounds and avoid church due to their use (not overuse) of either tobacco or alcohol. The other tragedy is the unbiblical use of "grape juice" in the place of biblical and traditional use of "wine" at communion. Just as well use "water" like the Latter Day Saints! All of these abberations of biblical practice came to us by way of the "temperance movement," not the Spirit of the LORD."

I am a pastor of 35 years. I am a person of 57 years, and a pain in many people's necks for the same. I have many faults and frailties. One look in the mirror of God's Word and I am reminded that I'm a sinner saved by grace (emphasis on grace). Like Qoheleth, the Preacher of Ecclesiastes, I've gone down the proverbial roads of excessiveness in just about everything (smoking, drugs, alcohol, violence, sexual immorality, exercise, work, coarse jesting, play, surfing, cussing, day-dreaming, pleasure seeking, television, web-surfing, eating, and even ministry. But notice that "excessiveness" even includes wisdom, knowledge, science, stupidity, and folly. (1:17-18). Read the book. The end of every road of excessiveness is less than what God intended for us. He wants us to experience His blessings in place of "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life." Sure the church struggles with all these things. Who's the church? You and me.
1 Corinthians 6:12 (NASB) "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." I, for one, have had too many masters over the years. I've struggled with the hypocrisy of trying to serve both the eternal Christ and the temporal things of this world. Although we try, the abundant life Jesus promises in John 10:10 cannot be substituted with any of these temporal things.
Philippians 2:12b-13 (NKJV) "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Get back on the surgery table and let Him work.

i think the christian standard must be based on the word of God. if we compromise inoder to have people in the church fine but the main issue is leading people inorder to inherite the kingdom of God. HOw can a blind man lead a blind man? they will both fall in to the ditch.
Thnks.
gOD BLESS YOUR.
I AM HOPING TO HEAR MORE FROM YOU.

It's interesting that so much of the discussion revolves around our 'rights' as to drinking. Would it not be better to focus this energy on a discussion of our responsibility to lead and set examples to even the 'least of these' that we pastor - including those with alcohol problems?

I minister in Australia, and our nation has an epidemic of alcohol abuse (according to a Government report). It's less about our rights and more about modelling that a live can be lived without alcohol - a foreign concept to most in our society.

Abstaining because of 5 kids needs to drink one or 2 glasses of wine a day since current research indicates 1 (or 2 for men) glasses of wine (especially red wine) tends to keep the heart attack away.
A call for maturity is a call to liberty not legalism. In Galatians the mature believer is the one who lives in freedom, the immature is constrained by a law lifestyle. The immature is concerned with exactly what one eats or drinks.

Holiness is always a heart issue, our response to the Lord who loves us. As soon as we legislate a behavior, the fear of man comes in and the holiness we thought we were promoting becomes a wall or a mask to hide the real goings on of the heart. If the Lord does not condemn me for a glass of wine with dinner, I am not condemned. If my own heart condemns me as I drink it, then it is sin to me, the Scripture says. The laws we think will point us to a godly way serve as a hindrance, ultimately.

"The wise are cautious and turn away from evil, but the fool throws off restraint and is careless" (Proverbs 14:16). Why walk along the craggy edge of the cliff when you can walk in the safety of the middle of the plateau? We are warned that there are ways that seem right to us as humanbeings, but the end is death or destruction. The cleric is admonished to be an example for believers in all things. What does it mean to be holy? While we all stumble, we must be careful that we do not fall into the pit of unholiness. Grace catches all of us, but we are not to count on it as the basis of our living. Regardless, each of us is to be convinced in our own minds (Romans 14:5b). I'd just rather be safe than sorry when I stand before the judgment seat of God, to whom each of us will be accountable (Romans 14:12).

Hey Greg: He says he doesn't CONDEMN overeating. Is there an exception in the gluttony clause that excludes food or did I miss that in the Bible? He also doesn't condemn the drinking problem. Read again. So, if we don't condemn gluttony, let's get a freebie on greed, envy, sloth, spite, lust and anger. And wipe away the 10 Commandments while we're at it. If that's the way someone is going to preach (half-truths) then we just need to toss out the Bible and start preaching our own versions of "truth." Sins are sins and held to no heirarchy although man tries to make "his" sin (say--gluttony) less than others (a money hoarder or anger issues or G-d's name in vain, or whatever speck you find in your neighbor's eye). And if G-d really approved of gluttony, why is there so much talk of fasting in the Bible?