This is one of those times when you can hear the bones of the saints rattling in their graves as the roll over.

I love it! - the 21 day freedom from complaining challenge!

I love my coffee and enjoy my car, but this sounds a lot consumerism with a religious twist. Given the current discussions on being missional, these approaches seem to have a lot more to do with the aging paradigm of attracting seekers (often "aka church shoppers")than living out our faith in the midst of our surrounding community. What if we brought our neighbor a cup of coffee, washed their car and prayed for those in our path instead of complaining about the guy next door? Just a thought.

I agree the church needs to be incarnational in it's approach to missions - but I wonder if coffee cup holders, theatre style seating and car-dealership sponsors are taking things too far.

What I see outside the church are people who are becoming disillusioned with wealth and materialism. I beleive living simply and not getting caught up too much in trends (Like the current cafe trend), is where the church can show some leadership and be a refreshing change to the self-centred "serve me" world we are in. Be comfy in church, but let's be reasonable.

Wayne

RE: selling cars at church... I wonder if this verse in Mark 11:17 applies:
"My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'[a]? But you have made it 'a den of robbers."

Or am I just a stick in the mud?

I am all for culturally embrasive church gatherings (e.g. art, music, etc.) but the problem is that we have been decieved by money, marketers, media they use and the idea that Jesus is for all these things. We tacitly assume (in say Saddleback which is near my home) that all means available to "preach the gospel" and do church are condusive to the mission of Jesus. However this is not true. When we so easily adopt the whims and ways of this world (America in our context), it is the worlds message we begin to proclaim. There is no way this can be the gospel since it is not Good News for the 2/3's majority of the earth!

We are in serious need of reformation. The whole cup-holder deal is just a subtle by-product of a church that follows Andy Stanley, Bill Hybels, and John Maxwell's how-to modernistic "leadership theory" rather than the radical, subversive and transorming Gospel of Jesus Christ. Don't even get me started on the car dealers marketing.

What next? Will these Mega-wanna be churches begin to take on corporate adversiters and allow them to hang flashy signs from their sanctuary facades? I mean advertising is much more culturally embrasive than say a cross? I got-it why don't we do coffee and scones for communion too?

Talk about a sell out to the consumer culture! Selling cars at church - you've got to be joking!Coffee holders on seats - so you just look at what happens in church as another form of entertainment. Jesus as the "life-style" option, not the Saviour of the world - the God who is worthy of our worship. We all need to repent in dust and ashes and cry out for mercy. We need to remember - "the fear (reverential awe) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". What about - "work out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING" -Our God is a holy and awesome God and this is how we treat Him?!! Just another product to be sold in the market place. God have mercy on us sinners.

I can not abide by cars being sold at church. The first time I see one being sold at my church I am out of there. I attend a "mega church" but do not think we would be so careless.

What is the big deal with cupholders in the pews though? Is their a divine mandate I did not get in bible school that said "thou shalt be uncomfortable in the seats?"

I just spent a weeekend at a mens retreat sitting on the most uncomfortable seats I have sat on in a long time. If the church wants to invest in nicer chairs and a little bit of creature comfort than so be it. When the praise and worship goes a little long, or the sermon is a little more involved than usual than I will be more comfortable and probably a little more apt to stick around.

car sponsorships! i love it!

now if they would only have a full bar at church...

"Our sermon is next...but first, this message from
Starbucks, your home for heavenly coffee..."

God help us.

I'd have a hard time explaining such idolatry to the homeless kids I've met overseas who live in sewers and must sell their bodies to survive, and sniff glue to mask the hunger pains and give them a sensation of warmth.

Perhaps some of these churches would better spend their money to send their entire congregations to a 3rd world country for a couple of weeks instead of investing in the cup holders and the like. Maybe it would give them a better biblical perspective on what matters in God's eyes. Oops, I forgot--it's all about comfort. Guess that idea won't fly.

Personally I am not shocked - nor am I offended -by the idea of cupholders in the pew. Is that somehow more offensive than cups being left on the floor in church that allow coffee into their sanctuary? As for the car sales - that has no place in the church.

But one other thing ... why is it that every controversial idea seems to get directly linked to the "leadership theory" of men like Andy Stanley, Bill Hybels and John Maxwell? They aren't the ones who have promoted bringing car shows to church. When we lump all of the things we find offensive in one big pile, and place it under one all-inclusive banner - when we create an "us versus them" mentality - are we really doing anything to build the kingdom of God? Are we really "standing for truth" or have we started standing for what we like and dislike?

Well, I guess its good that my church doesn't have a parking lot-- no fear of ever showing new cars, we don't have the space. However, the issue of selling stuff at church came up this week at my church, because a parachurch ministry is selling pumpkins in front of the church as a fundraiser. To sell cars and invest the profit in overseas missions, to perhaps buy a car for a pastor who preaches at multiple churches in a day and rides a bike because he can't afford a car, would be a good thing. But to show cars at church to benefit the greedy corporations seems very unethical. I think coffee-cup holders would be a distraction in church. I would be thinking about my coffee instead of God. Though it seems legalistic, I agree with a sign on the sanctuary door of the church I grew up in: "No food, drinks, or gum chewing allowed".

Wow! I thought I had heard everything. I forgot to buy creamer one Sunday in my last church and I thought I was going to get a free coupon for a U-Haul on Monday! Coffee has been divinized!

I think the greatest threat to pastoral burnout is handling critics and complainers. Every pastor has a few or a few too many. I think there should be WMD for complainers. I like the OT where the ground opens up when leadership is questioned.

Small wonder evangelicals are on the wane with this consumer-driven culture that will do anything to appease the world. I JOhn 1:15-16 is stuck in my head when I read stuff like this.

We have at our church a coffee area called "Holy Grounds". I felt guilty after reading the article because I am the guy who came up with the slogan!

Next sermon: "Coffee or Christ!

Jon Privett
Baker City, Oregon

Cup holders in church? Not that shocking. Most churches I've been to have cup holders, especially the most traditional Baptist churches.

There to put the wee plastic cup of grape juice when you're done with communion.

Is the argument here more over bringing coffee to church and needing larger cup holders?