I am United Methodist. In my view the system itself sets us up for a driving ambition. Each year when the cabinet gets together for their deliberations, they have the worksheet that lists everyone from the highest salary to the lowest salary. They also have church size, average attendance and other items on their spreadsheet to help them make their decisions concerning pastoral appointments. I do not envy them their task. Tyring to hear the Holy Spirit and match the right pastor to the right church cannot be an easy task.
The hierarchical nature of their task makes the job more difficult. I've heard the goal is to make moves in an upward or at least lateral fashion. This means a few more dollars, and generally, a little bit larger church. However, my own feelings of ambition somtime make me wonder: "Why did pastor X, with fewer years experience than me, get such a large jump on th ladder?" "Why have I been overlooked?"
In it's rawest form, this is ambition raising it's ugly head in my life and Satan's way of messing with me for a few weeks until I get over the "supposed" slight and get back to doing what I have been called to do--minister to the flock to which I am assigned.
As a United Methodist minister, I am not immune to the worldly drive of ambition, but at least I am aware of this shortfall within my own personality and can deal with it. I see some, that don't seem to have noticed how it affects them. I hope that one day, they do.

Thanks. Whether it be size or innovation, it's a killer for sure. As a church planter, I face it a lot within myself.

This really hits home with me.

I often feel torn. On the one hand, there is that side of me that values pastoring a church that is biblically and spiritually solid, realizing that that kind of church may not necessarily be "successful" by the standards of some (i.e. big and rich and imitated by other, smaller churches). On the other hand, there is that part of me that wants to be a "big" church, "realize" the vision, "grow" the ministry, etc., etc., ad nauseum - and I am 100% aware that this part of me is, at times, fueled by ungodly pride and ambition.

Of course, the problem isn't just the fact that pastors have bought into the "success = a big church" mentality. The lay leadership and members of most churches have, too. I currently pastor a new church that is doing well and experiencing consistent growth. There is a lot of expectation and pressure from the church leadership to be a big, thriving church. So, I constantly find myself look at the numbers to measure our level of success and my own personal leadership abilities. Let's face it - if a church doesn't experience continual upward growth, then it will usually be interpreted as ineffective pastoral leadership.

I have been pastoring a Pentecostal Chruch in Puerto Rico for over sixteen years, in a community that has a population of 17,550, with a total of over seventy churches in the community. I feel frustrated the Church I pastor has no more than fifteen members.

Kent...thank you for your courage and your honesty. Size of congregations, buildings, budgets, events, etc., are such subtle "ministry mistresses" that seduce and pull us away from that "First Love" we all so fully responded to once upon a time, no matter the cost, no matter what we had...or didn't have. I'm eager to learn more about your healthy changes for your own church. Where can I/we learn more?

750 people from a church plant and the guy is having self-confidence issues?
Oh boy, well, at least you got the right idea, "We must become skilled at detecting the odor of personal ambition, then flee from it as if the church's future depends on it. For I believe it does."
Anyone who plays the numbers game should quit, now.
Yes quit, immediately, right this instant, right now!
Leave the pastorage, get a job, become a drone, but for the love of all that G-d does in this world, don't ever play the numbers game as a pastor.
Too many egos in the ministry as there is, and the last thing we need right now is another up and coming Pastor who has a "vision", a "word of wisdom," to "lead the way" for all us poor "wandering sheep" to find "spiritual peace" in the pews of Church X.

I affirm what both brothers have written and join them in the call for less focus on success for a renewed call for service. Anyone who has been identified as a “model” by their peers will tell you that at the end of the day the work of ministry still needs to be done by the ones who have been called to do that ministry. Nothing reminds one more of this truth than returning home the Keynote Speaker for some international conference to the cry of a child who needs a diaper change, a senior saint who needs a meal, a drug addicted man who needs to be confronted or a worship center that needs vacuuming.

I pray that were I to ever have a “Love Me” wall that it would contain not the pictures of the seminars led, the consultations conducted or the conferences headlined, but the crayon drawings from the children’s sermon, the weddings that grew to serving families, and the successful confrontations leading to sobriety but never attributed to other than God. Be it done in a church of thousands or one of less than a hundred, the latter outweighs the former and offers less danger for those of us tempted most by Satan’s most powerful weapon – personal pride masquerading as success.

From Henri Nouwen's, In The Name Of Jesus (chpt 1):

"...I am telling you all this because I am deeply convinced that the Christian leader of the future is called to be completely irrelevant and to stand in this world with nothing to offer but his or her own vulnerable self. That is the way Jesus came to reveal God's love. The great message that we have to carry, as ministers of God's word and followers of Jesus, is that God loves us not because of what we do or accomplish, but because God has created and redeemed us in love and has chosen us to proclaim that love as the true source of all human life...It is here that the need for a new Christian leadership becomes clear. The leader of the future will be the one who dares to claim his irrelevance in the contemporary world as a divine vocation that allows him or her to enter into a deep solidarity with the anguish underlying all the glitter of success and to bring the light of Jesus there."

You just got started. Resolution to the problem of ambition needs to be more fully developed. The word, as the much-maligned word "money," is neutral. However, the wrong use of either can be very evil. The enemy of the soul was driven by his amibition to supplant God. In 2 Timothy 2:26, Paul talks about someone being ensnared to do the evil one's will. We must, truly, guard our hearts and minds (Jer.17:9-10), allowing the Holy Spirit's constant scrutiny and revealing any distortion to be brought to light and confession. Thanks for beginning the discussion. I trust that we will finish it.

The struggle is real. When the Spirit asked us to leave a secure and "successful" pastorate to birth a new church it was this very battle that had to be won for me to follow in obedience. I would be ashamed to admit the extent of the struggle. It would be easier to admit if our new start had exploded with growth, but not so. It has been tough and un-noticable by general pastoral standards. But I'm now finding my "success" more properly defined in the completness of my surrender and the sincerity of my service. Thanks for the evident courage...

I'm not a pastor, but I've been a member of a couple of churches that had leadership in love with narcissistic "success". These leaders were very willing to do what they had to do to motivate (or guilt) people into serving them so they could build their empire.

If ambition is in the DNA of a church, it doesn't just stay at the top of the org chart. It trickled down to most all of the ministries - and doesn't create a very healthy church culture, though it does create a "successful-looking" one.

Thank you for raising this issue, it is one that has been a discussion in our home for a while. I have grappled with the definition of success in ministry. In reading the article, I was appalled that a pastor would be feeling unsuccessful in leading a church plant to 750 people in three years. In my part of the country, it is the norm to have churches of less than 50 people in size. I have a hard time conceiving of pastoring a church of 750 or more people. I know of one pastor who has pastored 2 churches in his career thus far. Neither church ever reached more than 40 in attendance. But in his approx. 10 years of ministry there are at least 8 people who have followed the call of God on their lives and are now in ministry. Is this pastor a successful pastor? I might say unequivocally yes! Why then are we driven more by the quantitative results than the qualitative results of our ministry? We really need to consider this question in the light of the scripture (the quote from Paul is a good start). Thank you again for bringing the issue to the fore. In my own struggle with success, I am arriving at the more qualitative aspects of ministry as a sign of "success".

Kent’s candid comments address a pervasive problem not only in the Church, but among all human society. A consequence of the fall, I fear. But its near-universality doesn’t excuse the Church from “looking the other way” when our leaders surrender to ambition. It is more destructive than people realize. I recognize in my own life how dangerous it truly is, and how susceptible I am to its empty charms. As a military chaplain, I serve in a community where we actually wear our rank on our collars, shoulders and sleeves—revealing to all the world precisely where we fit into the hierarchy. Still, the military isn’t the only organization with its own ranking of clergy… in civilian contexts the “ranks” may just be a bit more subtle.

As the Scriptures amply attest, and the history of the ancient Church confirms, ambition has been an alluring temptation to clergy since the beginning. The canons (rules) established by the Ecumenical Councils repeatedly address the threat of ambition. The epitome of the very first canon of the Council of Sardica (A.D. 343) declares, “No bishop is to be found passing from a smaller to a greater city. If anyone should move from a humble to a more important see, he shall be excommunicated his whole life as proud and grasping.”

Ambition is not only common, it’s insidious. After all, most of the praise that tickles our ears is offered in genuine gratitude by others. That is precisely why we must remain vigilant in watching for signs of ambition in our own hearts. It’s much easier to uproot from our spirits while its roots are still shallow.

Kent: thanks for your honesty. I'm currently in a time of preparation for some type of future pastoral ministry, so hearing some gut-level honesty from those who are currently pastoring is valuable to me.

I'm glad that the pastor of "only" 750 people was honest enough to talk to you, you with us, and hopefully the rest of us can learn to be real with each other too.

I love the honesty of the topic and the comments. The idea of ego and ambition have always been a challenge for me. My upbringing enforced the fact that ego and ambition are "bad" and don't belong to a person of good character. However, without some ego and ambition it is hard to answer God's call to go out and make disciples of all nations. Therein lies the dilemma. Raw ambition is ugly. It should never be about numbers for numbers sake.

This summer I heard Bill Hybels express it in a way that gave words to the burning passion that resides inside my soul, "Impact Hungry." I want to change the world not because I want to have a huge church, feed my ego or feed my ambition. I want to change the world because I desire to change the world for Jesus - contributing to what ultimately is God's will: "to bring everything under the Lordship of Jesus." Eph. 1:10

I'm afraid that will look and sound like ambition. I still have to answer the call.

In Australia the "market leaders" of the contemporary church movement have established the "500 club" an exclusive (elitist?) group whose associates must have a church membership exceeding 500. Sounds similar to the group you visited Kent.

The success syndrome, promoted by elitist groups, drives ambitious men to achieve measurable goals. How does one measure character or spirituality when speaking to other pastors? To speak of a church that is strong spiritually rather than big numerically is considered by the market leaders as an excuse for ineffective ministry. So, numbers, speaking engagements, club memberships and money become the language of success. However, these measurable "commodities" are not achieved through the message of the cross but through the "gospel of relevance".
At the risk of being crass, the following is a quote from a book I have written:

"When our dilemma is head-counts and our goal is to be the church of society, then figures and recognition are the images of our attractiveness, the evidence of our worth. While some struggle to keep their current congregation and be the church of society, others have achieved their success, all in the name of relevance. Whether successful or not, the result is that the glory of the church is not found in God but in renamed images." (Will the real church stand up)

Ambition, like laziness, is idolatry and its fruit fails to glorify God.

May the church be to the praise of His glory - rather than our own glory.

hi i do agreee with kent with the way we are looking at things and miss out the eternal perspective im an associate pastor of large congregation sometimes we just push people to get our numbers how many really have the disticnt lordship of jesus , we are now in a pop culture some times i want just leave and run to some monastic way and quieten my spirit in th lord john thomas

I strongly feel Kent Carlson is hitting the nail on the head.
When I read phrases like "elite group of pastors", "the more successful and talented pastors", "some of the biggest name", I shudder.
I wonder how much we listen to Jesus, who said that he is the only Teacher we have (Matthew 23.8-12.)He taught that anyone who had ambition should a servant and slave (Matthew 20.25-28.) and should take the lowest rank (Luke 22.25-26.) And He practiced what He preached - "I am among you as one who serves."

And come to think of it, whose idea was it to take the title "Pastor", when in Matthew 23 Jesus said we should not do such a think.

There's a lot of act to be cleaned up.

Michael Yarrow, Harlow, Essex, UK

I'm learning to ask a simple question..."do this in order to accomplish what?" It seems like Ken's honest evaluation must continue...to continue to go deeper. For so many religous leaders the answer for this simple question leads to justification of activities that "make sense." Making sense is what we know how to do...it makes life work the way we want it...the way our peers expect...the way we've been taught that God wants it.

But what if we stopped as pastorial leaders long enough to truly contemplate what we are attempting to accomplish? So far my life's journey has been filled with extreeme activity in order to be viewed as successful to the world and to my heavenly Father. I've worked so hard to earn His favor...to get His "well done!" Only to be left with a hole in my heart...broken relationships in my life...lost and alone.

It's taken me many years to find that, for me, life's biggest and grandest pursuit is to simply find and experience God...daily. Accepting His love...and reflecting it to those around me...starting with my wife and children. As a pastor I'm having to be extreemely diligent to establishing the right protections for this life's journey to be encouraged. Measures of success within our church community are very minimal...the one we do have relates to each individual pastorial leader's willingness toward finding and loving God and others...this is the only measure.

We find that we must communicate this measure often to our church community...to our leadership team...to our wives and children...and then ask them to understand and encourage us to follow this path...only this path. Because we all understand that the world will pull us toward meaningless activity...activity that would enable us to save the world, but lose our own souls...losing our way on this life's journey for something that looks attractive...maybe even important...but would distract one from finding and experience God...His love and His peace.

Thank you Ken for your willingness to be vulnerable in your life's journey. I pray that God's warm love will fill your heart with joy. I ask for prayers that I will consitently follow the path of simplicity...the path to find and experience my loving Father.

And the journey continues...

This couldn't have come at a better time for me.

In the past month I received an invitation to a similar "elite" conference. I don't think I was invited because of any special ability on my part. I believe the conference was open to anyone who could pony up the impressive conference fee (think thousands of dollars). I was simultaneously disgusted by the apparent materialism on their part and frustrated that my church didn't have the budget for it. I suspect, if I'm honest with myself, that if my church could've afforded the trip, I probably wouldn't have problems with the materialism. What does that say about me?

Yesterday, while searching for some information on the history of our brotherhood, I came across a website that listed average salaries for a person of my education and experience. I discovered I'm paid $22,000 per year less than the average. When I got home, my wife and I had a discussion about finances and whether or not we should let the bank repo our car. Do you think I wasn't longing for something "bigger and better"?

Thanks for leading us all to check our motives. We (I) needed that!

Unfortunately, this mentality is endoctrinated into those preparing for ministry. I recall a number of years ago when I was a seminary student, twice a week every week, we attended chapel services on the campus of one of our denomination's most respected seminaries. The speaker was always the pastor of First Largest Church of Some City, USA. In the past year his church had grown from 400 members to 14,000, had given $$$$$$$ to missions, and had baptized 2,500. I never heard from the bi-vocational pastor of Teeny Weeny Baptist Church of Tiny Town, USA, who knew all of his members - and their pets - by name, whose annual budget was less than what the local mom-and-pop grocery store took in each week, and whose ministry was characterized by a genuine love for his parishoners. His minsitry was not successful enough to warrant an invitation to speak at a chapel service at one of the seminaries his church's offerings help support.

I acknowledge the mindset of "bigger is better," and "success in ministry equals a large congregation" doesn't necessarily begin in seminary, but, from what I experienced, seminaries don't do very much to alter that notion.

Ministry is about loving God and loving people, not big budgets, big sanctuaries, and big membership rolls. I think we can too easily lose sight of that, and nothing pleases the enemy more.

Kent,
Thanks so much for your honest observations about how the Church has veered off the straight and narrow path. I'll bet you didn't make a lot of friends with that one. When I started out in ministry, I was 5 miles from a megachurch - if I wrote the name you would know it. The small church of 70 (on a good day) would consistently lose people to this bigger venue and it would frustrate me. For years, I thought I was selfish for being upset at this. But then a mentor of mine helped me realize that the most-successful ministry ever was with a guy who had a church of 12! Thanks again for shedding light on this issue and how we can prevent it from taking over. I hope you are led to write a follow-up sometime soon!

I was very interested when I saw that Kent's topic was Pastoral Ambition. You see, I am currently a bible school student, and just beginning in full-time ministry. I had this same discussion first with the Lord when he asked me several years ago, "Is your Ambition a Holy Ambition or a Selfish Ambition?" We all know when God asks you a question, He already knows the answer and is wanting you to be REAL enough with Him and yourself to probe your motives. I had to admit at that point and time in the beginning of me answering the call into the ministry, it was a Selfish Ambition. Coming from a background of never good enough, I was out to prove that I was good enough since God wanted me. Then as the Lord gently worked with me, I saw that when I could begin asking the same question to myself that He had asked me, over every decision and possible step of my journey, that it really became easier for me to first determine my motives on a particular project, and to insure that I was focused on OTHERS and not what I might or might not received through it or from it. It really is just that simple. I leave you with this same question, Is it a Holy ambition or a Selfish ambition?
May God Richly Bless each of you!
cammy

Ken I'm so thankful I ran across your article and all these related comments.

My pastor is in his 70's and has pastored this same church for 35 years, I've been a member here for 25 years. Before reading this article, my pastor was the only minister I had ever heard preaching and teaching against this same materialism and "measuring church success by the size of your membership or budget". He warns us all the time to be very careful about embracing everything we hear from the "big" TV ministries and to backup everything we hear by the word of God- if God's word doesn't back it up, rightly divided in our dispensation, then cast it aside.

Granted, he has been greatly rejected by pastors who are striving for "bigness" and he's almost never asked to speak at their churches. Shortly after he began ministering this type of message our membership went down tremendously, but now those of us who are here, we're here because we love God and we want to live holy lives pleasing to Him. We're not here for a show or to please people, and we're being very well taught the word of God. The membership is not being drained of every penny to help fund the next "big vision";
we're not burdened financially. We know what it means to put God first in our finances and to give as he has prospered us, but every message isn't geared to empty our pockets. In essence, because our pastor had the backbone to step out of the status quo years ago; we're now experiencing real freedom in this fellowship.

I want to encourage Ken and all the pastors out there to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in this regard; it might cost you the material and carnal things of life, but in the sight of God those things are worthless anyway.

This is so true. Thank you for your honest insights. I just wrote about this same thing today. I think that ambition and insecurity are some of the main reasons it is so hard for pastors and Christian leaders to have meaningful relationships with their peers, which they desperately need.

I have to say that I am guilty. I confess to the sin of ambition. I bought the idea that the bigger the better. There may have been
conspirators involved (denominational leaders, etc), but I swallowed it hook, line and sinker. "Things will be better in a bigger church" I thought in my first church of 35 people. "Things will be better in a bigger church with multiple staff" when I was in a church that could not afford staff of 120." Now it is easy to think "it will be better" when my church, with multiple staff that runs 350 to 400, is running 500-600.
I just spoke with a good friend who is exiting ministry, mostly because in 'productive' terms, his church has done more decline than incline. The psychological dark side of a declining ministry has taken its toll. The numbers game has more victims than victors.
In my last conversation with him, I lamented, "I am weary of those guys that speak at pastor's meetings who, after years of workaholism and a few heart attacks, and are pastoring large enough churches to afford executive pastors, tell everyone to 'work less and spend more time with your family'. The fact is that they would not be asked to say anything to anybody about anything unless they had posted huge numerical and financial gains.
I think I am learning that whether my church grows or not is really not a direct indicator of my spiritual status. My churches have grown when I have been sucking wind spiritually and my churches have declined when I have been spiritually stout. Actually, I am finding at the 21st year of ministry a deep discontentedness with the idol of my own making. I think the need to excel says more about me than anyone else. I wonder how many other ministers out there have come to terms with the need to excel as part of their need for approval.
Still on the journey,

A Confessed Ambitioniac

Everyone should read R.A. Torrey's sermon, Why God Used D.L. Moody. One of the reason's that God used D.L. Moody accoding to Torrey is because he was a humble man.

"The odor of pastoral ambition"

What a vivd and helpful phrase!

Thank you!

I have wrestled with this in my personal ministry several times over the past 35 years, some in the Church of God, Cleveland, and now as an Anglican, and this past weekend, my wife and I sat down and seriously considered finally retiring, since my new mission plant in SD is running only 3 - 6 on any given Sunday.
I used to kid about it, years ago in the COG, in conferences and at the State Office, we would always report, 'running well over 300, catching about 50.' That was funny then, in the 70's and 80's, but not now. Too much is riding on all of our efforts now, our world is going to pot in a hand basket, and we are not doing much to stop the slide.
This article has given me fresh cause to rethink, regroup, and act more like a Franciscan than I have been doing.
Thank you, Kent, for this very timely (for me) article!

This article was so refreshing! I feel as if God sent this at such a time as this for me. Pastor Kent has laid himself bare to assist new pastors such as myself. On Sunday the church that my husband and I planted will celebrate its first year. God spoke to me early in this new ministry and said do not get caught up in the numbers game and I haven't. Much like the pastor in P.R. I have a congregation under 20. But you know what? I am simply happy to have been chosen by the Savior to lead his people. I think we must never forget for whom we serve. I am encouraged by this article and pray to remain committed to promoting Jesus' personality and not that of my own.

Thank you for highlighting the church's Great Competition!
Surely the bottom line of the problem is our focus? How did we move from the 'Acts-style' church, to the 'the whole community goes-style', to now, 'what can we do to make church bigger and better-stlye?
However recently, we felt the Lord say to us quite strongly, "Stop trying to grow the church. It is My church and it is the way I want it," and "we need to listen to Him to know where to go and what to do".

I've attended many Pastors Conferences where the 1st question you hear when sitting down to eat with another Pastor is...."So, how big is your Church?" If you have ever asked that question, Why do you? & Please don't!

When I was 28, I was called to the 3rd largest church in a local association of about 50 churches. I went to the monthly ministers conference, and, while I was formally introduced and welcomed, no one spoke to me. After about an hour, one of the men mentioned to me that the group had gotten a tape of my trial sermon and had played it as their program at the prior month's meeting. I was a great preacher, and they were jealous and resentful, he said. I was embarrassed and never went back.

Five years later, the church had nearly doubled, and I had celebrity status. I also had my share of isolation, depression, and exhaustion. I felt "burned out" and left the ministry.

Young, gifted men desperately need the counsel and support of older pastors. My job looked appealing from the outside but it was very stressful. I could have used some encouragement to help me hang in there. Today, I work very hard to recognize giftedness in young ministers and try to help them grow spiritually and professionally.

We need to help each other to advance the kingdom according to our gifts and place where God has put us. But, you can't help someone if you're competing with them in your heart.

Thanks for this very honest post. Ambition is a tough topic for any Christian and it must carry particular baggage for a pastor. I blogged on the topic of stewarding ambition just a couple of days ago. For anyone that's interested, here's the link -

http://everysquareinch.blogspot.com/2006/10/stewarding-our-ambition.html

Is the argument for validation of larger or smaller churches? Busy and ambitious ministers or relaxed and mellow pastors? Or is it of who is actually making disciples and disciple-makers? Larger churches need their own seminars to address the number of people that they have. The paradigms for a 50, 500, and 5000 attendance church are all different as they are for business sizes. There will always be a place for mega, large, mid-size, small, and smaller churches because each meets a need of the community. The spirit of Kent's article may have been for discipleship through multiplication instead of through addition. Moving from an icon church to a replication one (i.e. Elephant in the Boardroom; Weese & Crabtree).

The problem runs deeper than most people think, including pastors. Even the Apostle Paul dealt with this problem.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
"Paul wasn't interested in baptism or fancy talk. He was not out to impress anyone with his knowledge or his communication skills. He didn't give a hoot what the world thought of him or of his preaching. This is a lesson that the church has yet to learn—particularly those who appreciate scholarship and credibility..." more>>
http://www.pilgrim-platform.org/1cor002.php

I'm a pastor. I have quite a few ambitions, some better & godlier than others.
1. To help more people around me become and live as disciples of Jesus.
2. To raise my kids in a way that they are inclined to love God & live as disciples.
3. To be able to provide for my family. This includes material things like braces for teeth, vision correction, college - maybe even someday when we strike it rich, to own our own house.

My congregation is 149 years old. Though the buildings aren't that old, they're pretty decrepit, needing constant repairs & money. The debt was large before I arrived 3 years ago. I feel like I have to fight everyday just to stay afloat. We have to grow for the completely unspiritual reason of just paying the bills. Our town of 4500 isn't growing, so growth is work.

I'm in a denomination where I'm appointed to a church: we don't just choose each other. I can't just say, "Well this debt stuff is unspiritual so I'll go pastor somewhere else." I also don't feel right saying to those we owe, "This debt is degrading our spirituality, so we'll just renege on it."

Thanks for both the challenge and encouragement of your article. I just celebrated 25 years pastoring the same church and have also wrestled with the temptation to focus on membership. I have also experienced the self-doubt of meaning and affectiveness because of changes in the size of the congregation. We have seen growth and shrinkage - but I realize that being effective for the Kingdom of God does not necessarily mean large numbers - but is always means lives changed!

As an African-American minister shaped by the Civil Rights Era I am disgusted with the success model that mirrors the "BLING-BLING Gansta Rap World. “I choose to not segregate myself from the world and started three Alternative Schools in rural Ga. In Nov.05, I stood over the grave of one of my former students and his brothers who were killed in a home invasion related to drugs.
I was never able to get the church community to help me reach this un-churched community because time and time again I was told "these types are a drag on our vision for growth. “I am totally angry that we want "Favor" and not a "Fight with Satan." I have had to drop out of seminary to earn money for my family because I chose to serve a generation that will kill its community to get the things that even the church say's you need. I am not saying the church is advocating crime but it is not advocating "for God so loved the world (poor and rich) either. I am not angry over my situation. I would rather die poor than to become as my student called "a pulpit pimp"

As an African-American minister shaped by the Civil Rights Era I am disgusted with the success model that mirrors the "BLING-BLING Gansta Rap World. “I choose to not segregate myself from the world and started three Alternative Schools in rural Ga. In Nov.05, I stood over the grave of one of my former students and his brothers who were killed in a home invasion related to drugs.
I was never able to get the church community to help me reach this un-churched community because time and time again I was told "these types are a drag on our vision for growth. “I am totally angry that we want "Favor" and not a "Fight with Satan." I have had to drop out of seminary to earn money for my family because I chose to serve a generation that will kill its community to get the things that even the church say's you need. I am not saying the church is advocating crime but it is not advocating "for God so loved the world (poor and rich) either. I am not angry over my situation. I would rather die poor than to become as my student called "a pulpit pimp"

I see so many than leave seminary and find a smaller church to use as a stepping stone to bigger, better things. Or what about the seminary student who serves as a youth pastor merely because (1) he needs the money and (2) it will look good on a resume to get experience toward a "real" pastor job?

One can find a church, put down roots, and be there for decades and still struggle (at least I hope he does) with pastor ambition. However, I'd like to see more of that.

Piper's Brothers, We Are Not Professionals, should be read more often by those in ministerial training.

Unfortunately, while we a little "drive" is a good thing it leads to improper measurement (butts, bucks, and buildings) and questionable practices.

I didn't take the time to read all of the comments, so someone may have already said this.

One problem for ambition may not be an inner temptation but a shove from church members who want "results." I serve a small congregation in an extremely rural area, and the members are so concerned we are "not growing." Growth is a sign of health. If you are not healthy you will not grow.

Faithfulness as already stated is the key. We cannot save someone only be used in the process.

There is definitely some very insightful discussion going on here!

I am what many would consider a ministry failure. Coming out of seminary I was enticed by the first position that came along. The long and the short of it was that I was in no way gifted for the task that I was set to accomplish. Currently my role is being played out in the 'business' world.

Until we realize that the standards with which we measure ministry are of the world we will continue to struggle. The role of the pastor is typically defined by 'universal leadership principles' rather than the Scriptures that the likes of Michael Yarrow and Philip Ross (above)remind us of. Unfortunately when it comes to such truths we have more of a sophisticated come-back that amounts to nothing more than "yes, you're right, but . . ."

I like what dt.hasse quotes from Henri Nouwen when he says in light of the gospel message "it is here that the need for a new christian leadership becomes clear."

Paul also warned of days like today: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths" (II Timothy 4:3-4). It is here we see the evolutionary development of what Mike Biggs calls being "a pulpit pimp".

How Refreshing! It's true. Our drive for success is rooted in pride. Jesus needs to go to the top of our ministries. How little he is mentioned in all the mags (Charisma, REV, etc). The mega church model is not reality for 98% of all pastors and churches. Thank you for the open and honest article.

If we only want to hear people speak who are ministers at huge churches then that rules out the apostle Paul. I am sure if Paul were in town there would be quite a line to hear him speak. Those house churches were probably no more than 40 people and probably no more than a couple per city at the time he was doing ministry. Somewhere in the mix our priorities have gotten all messed up. I am sure consumerism fits in there somewhere. Bigger is not always better and smaller is not something to be ashamed of. God works in different ways at different times in different places. As long as we humble ourselves to his will in our lives it really doesn't matter what size church we are at.
In scripture those who were popular with God were actually not so popular with many people. Look at the persecution of the prophets and apostles. Jeremiah was basically alone in his quest to get Jerusalem to listen to God's word. On and on the list could go. Let's just be God-centered and let the rest fall into place.

What a refreshing word! As a pastor's wife, I admit in times past I compared our ministry to others. But I soon got tired of playing the numbers game and worrying about things out of my control. God reminded me to focus on "souls not members". We are commanded to be "faithful" not successful. I now realize that God hasn't called everyone to be a captain over the tens of thousands. Some captains have only the hundreds, some have only fifties and some only tens. To the pastor in P.R. and to all the pastors who serve in "small" ministries, be encouraged and know you are not alone. Our church is 10 years old and we have 9 members and most of them are family. But we feed and clothe the homeless, pray for the sick and do real ministry. We need more courageous men and women to stay in the fight. To the pastor with 750, you should be ashamed of yourself. What would you do if you were in my shoes? Our city newspaper profiles and spotlights a local pastor once a week, mostly from the larger churches. I wrote the editor and complained because I didn't think it was fair. I told him I felt there were a lot of smaller ministries doing a lot of good but don't get the same recognition. Well, a reporter came and interviewed my husband. We thought this was great! We would finally get a chance to speak on behalf of small ministries everywhere. But when she took the story to her boss for final approval, she was told the interview wouldn't be published because our church was simply "too small". Talk about a slap in the face. She apologized but it still hurt. We got over it because God is faithful and continued to give us favor in other areas for which we are glad. We need to hear more on this topic. Thank you so much for exposing this issue.

I live in Jackson, TN. Jackson, has a population of 50,000 plus. I feel honored to pastor a congregation numbering between 25-30. I feel certain that the Lord has me exactly where I belong and that He will send to us those to whom He wants us to minister. We boast in the Lord.

This is a very difficult topic.

There are many who lead both large and small churches who struggle with wrong ambition. The double-edge of this topic is that we are called to reach lost people.

There are many small churches that use this struggle as an excuse to put on poor quality events that turn people away from the Gospel and reinforce their "suffering for Jesus sake" mentality. There are those in large churches who allow numbers to become the end all.

Some earlier posts mentioned the "elite" group. But we know that the moment the pastor of a large church attempts to hang out or, God forbid it, try to help out with an event at a smaller church they are accused of "sheep stealing." And we don't even need to mention the accusations of selling short the Gospel or easy discipleship that the pastor of a large church faces.

The issue is a heart issue. Is the pastor pursuing God's call with excellence and dedication to presenting the message of Jesus Christ in a way that HELPS people come to know Him? Are they continuing to learn and grow personally? Is the pursuit of God their first priority?

I am a elder of a small church in Brussels, and I read the stories.
Brussels is a mostly frenchspeaking town, and we are a flemishspeaking church of some 90members.
Most members come from out of town; I think that it is not important wether your church count 90 or 5000 members.
What counts is, that yout hart works for the Lord our Savior.
When we go for a large church I think that our hart is not with the Lord, but with our ambition.
When the Lord blesses us with a large number of believers, that is a great thing, but when not that is even a grater thing.
The point is, that when our hart is with people, like the Lords hart, than it doesnt matter how big our congregation is.
Sometimes a church of 20 people is more hously than a church of 500, but sometime it is the other way around.
What matters is, that you lean on the Lord, and He will give wisdom and growth at His time.

Hendrick Ederveen, elder and preacher of a tiny church in Brussels Belgium

This article and the vast majority of the posts that follow it leave the reader with the distinct impression that striving to accomplish something for the Lord must necessarily be labeled "ambition." No way! There is a subtle message in what has been written that we shouldn't experience any inner motivation to grow our ministries lest we be guilty of wanting to do it for our own personal gain and gratification. Certainly this is a complicated issue, but it's not going to be solved by suggesting that it's okay to return with the one talent that you were given in the first place. God expects results, as the parable Jesus recounted clearly points out. While some pastors may take comfort in "knowing every congregants' name as well as that of their pets," this is NOT the only thing that Christian leaders are called to do. If we aren't equipping the people sitting in our pews to go OUT and reach the lost, then we are falling far short of the responsibilities with which God has entrusted us. For example, Author Charles Arn wrote ten years ago that HALF of all churches in America fail to win and add a single convert to their congregation annually. Does this sound like over-ambitious clergy at work? Instead, let's talk about an attitude where a strong "drive" to meet the Great Commission and to love our neighbors as ourselves is acceptable, pure and holy! Our rapidly deteriorating American culture depends upon it...

Tough stuff. I am part of a re-vitalization of a parish that suffered through some tough times. We get about 100 on Sundays. This is more the norm for the 'average joe' pastor than the megamegas. It is tough to look at the greener grass of the big and bustling. But, was the apostle Paul successful by our standards? His churches were small and conflicted, that's why we have so many of his letters because there were so many problems!! Yet he was content to preach the cross. I hope that we can all learn from that. Strength in weakness.

Kind of late to the discussion but I would like to say thank you. I am in year 8 as pastor of a church that had 8 people, my wife and I included, when I was selected as interim pastor. I work a fulltime job and don't get paid by the church, although this year they collected some money so we can take a vacation. Our church is in the shadow of four mega churches. We have lost members to three of them and the fourth opens on sunday. But we also reach people who would never go into those big churches.

I sometimes struggle with my ambition which is to be able to get paid enough to live on without working a separate job. It would be nice to dedicate all my time to nururing this church. Ambition takes all forms at all levels and isn't confined to the big boys.

Thanks for all the insight ladies and gentlemen!

Thank you for your article. I have spent most of my time reading the comments. I think any pastor would like to see indication of God's blessing on his ministry and also to know he is appreciated by those he ministers to (and for women in ministry too).
Whenever I see someone else in ministry who appears to be more successful than me, such as bigger numbers, he is more well known than I am, his ministry seems to be prospering and growing and mine isn't, I need to refer back to John 3 and the discussion John the Baptist had with his disciples, because it appeared Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John. John's replied that he can only receive what has been given to him from heaven. He reiterated the fact that he was not the Christ. Ultimately it is Jesus Christ who must be pre eminent, not John the Baptist.
This is the passage I need to refer myself back to when I see outward indication that someone else's ministry is succeeding more than mine.
It is God who bring about growth; not our manipulative techniques. We should evaluate our ministries and we should be open to ways of doing it better. But we need to remember we are here to serve, not to be served, as Jesus said in Mark. Let's exalt Him and not ourselves, knowing He will exalt us at the proper time as Peter says

This is a very valuable discussion. I'm sure that if most people were criticizing small churches I would be the one wanting to lift my voice in favor of small is beautiful. But the article is so right on and the responses so favorable that I feel the need to chip in on the other side (sorry that's just the way I am). I would love to see big churches; the bigger the better IF AND ONLY IF those megachurches were turning out megadisciples. I wonder if the problem is not ambition but the wrong ambition. We want bigger churches rather than . . . how shall I say it . . . bigger disciples (?). Pastors give up your small ambitions.

Stan,

I know emails like the one you received from Ben and Pricilla hurt. We feel the same. It is like receiving a failing grade regarding what we feel called to do best. This article is a great reminder that the grade we receive is based on faithfulness not human measurements or opinions.
You and Cammie are faithful pastors. You live the walk and put all your energy into loving and equipping your flock. Our depth of relation and growth is growing as is our impact on the community and world. You know in your hearts that you have been faithful to the call you received and we affirm that and our proud to be a small part of your team.

BOB

I pastor a rather very small church (+/- 50) but we have a great vision and are growing. As I read this blog I think we may be in danger of sounding a little harsh in our criticism of larger churches and their pastors. I believe that the desire for success, rather than being insidious, is a reflection of the nature of God in us and the mandate of God to us to subdue the world and exercise dominion over it. The inner drive to rule is the beautiful stamp of our Creator’s character within us. Although the environment of success is indeed filled with temptations and pitfalls (and we have seen many fall to these) - we fool ourselves if we think that the small-church leadership environment is any less so. In many cases they are simply different - but as perilous. I believe there is room for the mega-church and room for the more intimate type - they reach different people, they have different strengths and God uses them in different ways. To pastors of the large churches and to pastors of the smaller churches I say the same thing, ‘Well done - keep up the God work - mind the pitfalls - and I pray God blesses your ministry even more.”

As a religious historian, I'm an odd bird to take part in this discussion, but I keyed in on it for reasons of my own.

Among religious historians, (I'm shamefully unaware to provide a reference here), there is a strong suspicion that in England, the great urban tabernacles (such as Spurgeon's) that marked the high point of Evangelical influence in its homeland, were actually a crucial part of the decline of the tradition, a precursor to collapse.

Though the preaching and music were extraordinary, and though the crowds and offerings were astonishing, and though the missional outreach empowered by those offerings was worldwide in scope, they were still a crucial part of the decline of the tradition because they constituted a brutally effective competitor that ate all the small churches. They created an enormous concentration of precious resources that helped rid the land of the small, locally rooted congregations that constituted the principle institutional form taken by Evangelical religion and which accounted for much of its diversity of worship and theology. In fact, the growth of the great tabernacles in England could be seen as a crucial step in the secularization of England.

In this era, while extremely large churches and their leaders deserve genuine commendation for creating innovative ministry methods, I believe that there is a strong case to be made that the megachurches of today are growing largely at the expense of smaller churches, and though their growth may not constitute an actual sign of decline, one should not feel completely cynical for actually "worrying" about it.

To put aside my historical hat for a moment, I would like to opine that when folks baptize the commercial language of the marketplace and talk of numbers in the pews and revenue, only a very thin line separates them from the business owners fretting over their relative "market share." The brutal logic of competition may actually claim some limited ethical warrant in the business world, but when the smaller, weaker churches are put under by their mammoth cousins, it is not at all clear that the kingdom of God has been well served.

As our church has been on an upward growth pattern with a move into our first new building, I've heard plenty of times how we can "impact more people for Christ". While I believe in the hearts of our pastors as to the fact that this isn't about numbers, but about reaching as many souls as we can in our area, we are walking a fine line. Ego and pride can so easily creep in along with the excitement of seeing new people come and being reached with the gospel message. However, we must examine ourselves as to what we are really the most proudest of...an increase in church membership or the number of lost souls saved. Would we be just as happy if the newly saved took their church membership elsewhere? We should be. After all, we are really working for the global Kingdom anyway.

Great article.

Ambition is a two headed monster. One head of ambition eats at us pastors/preachers to be better than we are or to be like those who are or appear to have a lot of ambition. The other head is the "lack of ambition" for pastors who are just trying to get by ... as Isaiah says, "run and not faint" ... not even thinking about "flying." Yes lack of ambition is a real threat ... some call it burn out, others might call it laziness or "just getting by" but it is ever so real as "selfish ambition." This morning at 4:30am (couldn't sleep, stress, headache etc) prior to reading this article I penned a list of 30 items that are heavy on my heart pastoring a church of 400 or so in worship. I am wondering where to find the ambition to address them, how and when. May I be so bold to say, "I am tired of pastoring, and yet I hold onto a call from God." Ambition ... if it were sold I might buy a pound or two. What a moster ambition is!

Ambition has done more to ruin me as a young pastor than money (or lack thereof), stress, and crazy work weeks combined. Ironically this 'odorous ambition' has come from the leadership in the churches I have worked in. I am called to do, and not be. I am called to 'smoke and mirrors', not substance and spirituality. If I spend too much time with people and not enough time on the things that look good (whatever that means) I am reprimanded for being lazy and having poor time management. I am forced to choose between a job and people. I work just as hard as the next guy to be used by God to accomplish His purposes. I simply don't believe that most of the purposes God has called me to can be quantified.

Ephesians 4:1-3 "I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

The life we have been called to has less to do with our accomplishments (what we do) and everything to do with our character (who we are).

Is it truly ambition or is it motive that is being discussed? I would say that we need to be ambitious because it drives us to accomplish God-sized things for his kingdom. The motive I suspect is the issue; does the glory center around "me" or is it glory that is given to God because his spirit moved amongst the church in a way that drove us to participate in the expansion of his kingdom?

I serve in a denomination that appoints pastors to charges(churches) and what we have lost is the model of faithfulness as motivation. It is a system of looking for the next better appointment and politicing for it generally because we feel like more church equals more money and a more comfortable lifestyle. Sad I know but it is reality.

I personally find that I have been called to faithfulness but being a participant in this system I find my motives to be questionable at times and ones that I must struggle with, confess, and receive grace for. So where does the answer lie? The pious answer of course is in God. Listening to the stories of faithful followers of Jesus I find reality also points to God. I pray that God will motivate me through these stories to be ambitious for his kingdom!

I know that I am late to the discussion, but I just recieved the article. I am so blessed to know that I am not the only one who struggles with this problem. I don't knock big churches. I am in a church that runs 40 to 50 in Sunday School. I know that I cannot build the Church. God must. I do however struggle with ambition. I was just talking to my wife last week about it and longing for another pastor that I could talk to about it. To be completely honest, I have been questioning why I want to win people to the Lord. It is mostly because I want the Church to grow. Not because they will go to hell without Jesus but so I can be seen as successful. Terrible! I want to be the "big Church" in town. I want the recognition that I am not just a dud. I am new to this Church. Only been here four months. Only three baptisms. I feel like a failure already. The people are excited. But I leave Church on Sunday's discouraged that more didn't happen. Not because I care about the kingdom, but because I care about how I look to others. I am in a struggle with this sin and keep crying out to God to forgive me, to change me. I have older pastors tell me. God called you to be faithful. Not successful, but I struggle to give up this drive to look good in my denomination. My denomination at the end of every year recognizes the top churches for souls won, for growth, for giving. etc. They call them to the front and award them. My desire has been for so long, to be the one who gets called up for the most growth and baptisms. God please forgive me and deliver me. Thanks for the article and the honesty.

What man or woman that enters into ministry does not want to change the world for Christ? Don't we all want to see positive change because of our preaching and pastoring? The Apostle Paul desired to see the churches he planted grow and develop. I see nothing wrong with earnestly desiring to see our churches grow.

But we should be careful that numeric growth does not become the sole measure of our success or failure in ministry. The ultimate measure is how many disciples of Christ, not us, are birthed into this world. The numeric measure of Jesus' 3 year ministry was only 12, and one of them was a devil. (By our standards, many of us would have called this ministry a failure!)

It is not until after Christ has returned to his Father, that the 11 began taking the Gospel to the world. We may never know the real impact our churches of 10 or 1000 will have during our lifetimes. We should all look at this conversation as a wake up call to why we answered God's call into minstry. To quote Rick Warren, "It is not about you!"

Most churches start with the noblest ambitions regarding serving Christ and ministering to people. Then, after a time, the most important thing becomes "feeding the beast". We manipulate and coerce the flock instead of shepherd them. I'm not a pastor, though I have a seminary degree. I see this, however, and I believe that much of the rest of the flock sees coercion and manipulation for just what it is.