One has to question the motives of a Christian who claims to want to do charity to be more "Christ-like", but only if they can work with like-minded people. They can't have it both ways. My biggest criticism of the Church in our society is that it has become too exclusionary. Hats off to Rick Warren, et al., for demonstrating true Christian values.

Dear Skye,
I am sort of wondering what you mean about keeping people alive since Jesus said, "Follow me and let the dead bury the dead." Perhaps He meant political persuasions, go figure.

My interest in my relationship with the Heavenly Father is to express my experience of salvation (hear His voice ) in the God given moment to AID victims, the poor, dying, pastors and etc (you know, like Jesus ).

It appears that there are many versions of "Christ Like," but then, we need to be shown what we were saved from.

"I am amazed when Christians refuse to participate in the fight against the pandemic because others in the trenches don’t agree with them politically or theologically."

I think that part of the reason a great many Christians (an incredibly loose term these days) find it difficult to jump on Warren's bandwagon is because of the inconsistency of his alliances. The same group of 'evangelicals' who attended this event would NEVER be seen publically at a pro-life event of the same magnitude. It almost strikes one a hypocritical that liberal Christians love to use their supposed pro-life convictions as the reason they must become politically involved in solving HIV/AIDS and/or global warming. Yet none of these people are involved in the pro-life movement. In-fact, many of them deride the movement. Just think about the anti-Jerry Fallwell press over the last thirty years.

Would Rick Warren invite someone who is a well-known racist bigot to stand in his pulpit if they suppported his HIV/AIDS project? Don't be silly. Yet Barak Obama enthusiastically supports late-term abortion in which the baby's brain is sucked out of its little head before its body is brought out of the mother. It is totally medically unnecessary for the health of the mother and in fact, could bring her additional harm. This doesn't seem to bother liberal Christians for some reason.

I don't think any of Rick Warren's detractors are in favor of abandoning people affected with HIV/AIDS, but there is a "narrow" way and there is a "broad" way. For a pastor to ignore a call to repentance in the exercise of his social work diminishes the message of the gospel to such a degree to make it virtually meaningless.

There is not much to comment on because you have gotten it right. AIDS, as the premier example of the havok wrought by income disparities, and pornography, taking a toll on the souls of church leaders, are the two new most difficult challenges faced by the next generation of pastors.

One additional comment. I have been thinking recently about how social justice is cool (Rick Warren, Emerging Churches, etc.) Because it is a "trend" (sad, huh?), pastors need to be careful to not think they invented the concept! We need to continue to access the resources of wise Christian social workers, missionaries, economists, etc. rather than reinventing the wheel.

Social workers, stand up and help us pastors! We know now that we need to be facilitating and encouraging this justice work but it would be great if you would help us do it!

As far as I am aware, followers of Jesus are all about living and speaking the truth. Anything you see written from the homosexual-pro side of things is that when believers involve the truth in their life connections in the world, they are immediately labeled gay bashers and bigots. From someone who was at these conferences, how much truth was spoken by those who were followers of Jesus?

Matthew 28 "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 29 "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

I agree that Christ's calling is for us to help the oppressed any way we can--and I would add, especially if it means working with those outside the family of believers.

I am a little annoyed when you say AIDS "is not simply a political, moral, social, or theological issue. AIDS is a human issue." Somehow "human" is a rhetorical trump card. Clearly, good politics, good morality, good social activism, and good theology do not ignore "human" issues, but rather place them front and center.

In fact, Christians' degreee of care in this arena may very well be measured by their theology: do we understand how deeply God cares for those afflicted by this suffering?

I don't see the benefit of marginalizing those who have strong political, moral, social, or theological convictions. Instead, let's encourage those convictions to be played out fully in our actions toward helping the suffering.

It reminds me of the Evangelicals who spearheaded to fight to abolish the slave-trade in 19th century England. They saw anyone, evangelical or not, who was offended by the slave trade and wanted to have it abolished as a co-belligerent. It was the evangelicals who were moving the campaign forward and taking all the main initiatives to have it abolished, and Utilitarians and other secular humanists were happy to follow their lead. The evanglical contingent could not have done it alone, but it certainly would not have been done without them.

In the AIDS crisis it should not be a question of whether evangelicals should be involved or not, but why they are not taking more of the initiatives. I think there is nothing that makes a bigger impact for the gospel than Christians taking the lead in bringing relief whenever and wherever there is suffering. Nearly two centuries later, non-Christian historians still pay many a tribute to the energy, commitment and love of William Wilberforce. Wouldn't it be wonderful if people could look back 200 years from now and honour the efforts made by evangelicals in the fight against AIDS? Rick Warren, as well as Bono, and numerous other Christians who are serving God in that way are, presumably, among the individual names that will be mentioned. But the whole evangelical community needs to stand united on this issue, and set aside their spurious theology about divine retribution through disease. What would Jesus do?

I guess what is most amazing is that the same people who criticize Warren for Obama's appearance cite that Obama is pro-choice and proponent of late-term abortions.

And yet, most of those evangelicals would be pro-death penalty as well...right? if Obama can't be speaking on AIDS in an evangelical setting and be pro-choice, then the coin turns to says the evangelical detractors can't be pro-life and pro-death penalty. The reality is it is never as clear as we want it to be because it is a broken order of existence. I applaud Warren and Obama and all others involved in the fight against AIDS simply because they realize partisanship and sectarianism accomplishes nothing. The issues must be addressed with relative speed.

I mean really, we've had a pro-life president in office for almost 8 years and as far as I know the only life-affecting changes have come for the Iraqis. I realize there are other elements there, but the GOP controlled much of the US government establishment up until November.

Jamie's post, for those who did not read it, was from Matthew 28. It said it all. Why is it that some folks think that any association for the good of humankind with those who are not Christ-followers is an endorsement of their ideologies? We wonder why the church's relevancy in culture is declining when rather than influencing culture with the love and compassion of Christ, we want to remove Him from the equation altogether. God only knows why we would want to tarnish our self-righteous appearances by risking being His Ambassadors in arenas where He is the only one who can offer real hope. This not only smacks of hypocrisy, it is precisely the same mentality that convinced people that Jesus had to die.

an irony is that the same evangelicals who won't work alongside non-Christians against AIDS, will be faced with an interesting challenge if Mitt Romney (gov. of MA and a mormon) runs for President in 08.

i'm betting that it's easier to accept differences to further political gain and power than it is for social justice issues

You all make very good points. I agree in the theory that AIDS is something that we can all fight against, regardles of political affiliation, etc. However, here's what gets me nervous about this liason: Christians who just read the headlines and not the details will assume that Obama is "Christian-ish" and when/if he runs for presidents, they'll be very welcoming...thereby handing this country over to democrats and liberals. So in theory, it might be a good brotherly, open armed, love the sinner kind of thiing to do. But when you are in the public eye, especially as a Christian leader with much influence, you need to be more careful thatn the average bear. I am not very political, believe it or not, but that was my first reaction to this sitaution.

When it comes to forging alliances one must be very careful. If Obama is doing this for political clout, it is a big one for him. Alliances that are easily forged are also easily broken.

As Christians we must be willing to work with non Chistians without a doubt. However, with Evangelicals being millions strong who can be sure that these are not alliances that have them looking for votes? We must pray for discernment as a body of believers.

I'm going to try and be very sensitive here-especially because I know people who have died from AIDS.
***Jesus did not die on the cross so we could help those less fortunate. He died on the cross to save us from our sins.*** ANY social activism that leaves out ANY form of witnessing/evangelising is only allowing the downtrodden just a moment of relative "peace".
Now...with that said, if these unbelievers have no problem with you sharing that we are all sinners that deserve Hell and will go there unless we repent and put our firmest hope and trust in Jesus, then I say HAVE AT IT! Join any and every social group that does charity work because there you will find many of people to witness to.
BUT...if these unbelievers would have a problem with you fulfilling the GREAT COMMISSION then I say "...Come out from among them and be ye separate". ll Corinthians 6:17
We don't need the world to do our works of charity. If we're embarrased that they outdo us then maybe we need to reexamine our lives, not partner with them. We are to reflect JESUS and Him alone. Anything less and you do your Master an injustice.

Sam,

Jesus died for more than just saving me from my sin. When we begin to think of salvation and the death of Jesus as simply our ticket to heaven, we are losing much of the the meaning. Jesus died and rose to bring the Kingdom of God, to inaugurate the new Kingdom. Jesus talks of so much more than personal salvation.

Luke 10:8 And into whatever town you enter and are welcomed, eat whatever is placed in front of you,
Luke 10:9 and heal the sick people who live there. Say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’

I think that Jesus would have been at the AIDS summit with these people. I think he would have touched them and healed them and then, simply said, "The Kingdom of God has come near you this day."

Do people ACTUALLY, REALLY, in reality, not participate in those things BECAUSE of political or theological differences? I mean, is THAT, ACTUALLY, the reason? Seriously. I wonder. Am I being naive?
Jason

sam, I would recommend you find the autobiography of William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army and read it. I think it might be a great experience for you.

be well.

I am sort of stunned by some of the comments. If we fail to show Christ to those who are not on the narrow path, how will they come to know him?
I fear there is HIV/AIDS phobias, people that fear and grade sin as those not noble or righteous enough to know Christ. This is so valuable, calling us to be the hands and feet for Christ. I believe that it was said that evangelicals have too long been the mouth of negativity in the last few decades. HOW true is that?
I have to look personally at that, what am I doing to be hands and feet vs. the mouth of negativity and criticism. We have the opportunity to be the light to darkness.
Praise GOD a friend did that for me a few years back, didn't judge me because of my less than admirable pre-Christian life. She was the hands and feet and heart of Christ to me. It made a life change in me that is indescribable.
We have been called to do that, all of us, not by saying this is a valued life and this one is not.
I'm so thankful for Saddleback hosting that event. It is changing the face of evangelicals that can be haughty to the rest of the non-evangelical world.

Thanks, Roger, for your comments on the liberal movements & improvements in our history that improved life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for our fellow souls -- freedom of religion, the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights, and on. Nothing speaks louder to others than witnessing that we are genuinely concerned about their health and wellbeing; that we care about the entire person: physical, emotional, and spiritual. This speaks volumes in our self-centered society. We will stand out if we love others.

There's been plenty of speculation as to the WWJD factor. Yes, Christ did witness to just about anyone. He also made sure they knew he was concerned about them personally; he met their needs where they were at that time. Didn't matter if they were outcasts in society or shunned by the religious elect. Today, we have drawn our own lines of "acceptable" people and are often guilty of looking down our noses at people who reach out to gays, atheists, people with HIV and AIDs, or [fill in the blank] without the motive of "conversion by concussion".

I hope this isn't just a passing trend. I'd hate to see our collective conscience die [again] due to lack of the "cool factor."

It couldnt have been better said than by Matt 28,( thank you Jamie and J.W.)Seems that all is acceptable to more and more of the Christian community as long as it doesn't affect them personally. Jesus spoke to all of people and he HE knew how some would react.but, HE did not soften the message, didn't us humankind acceptable methods or values but OUR FATHERS values. Seems to me that we waste for time in showing the world how un-organized we Christians are. By the way Derek regarding Mitt Romney gov of MA. What's another magician in the White House.

For an interesting, systemic approach to treating AIDS in Africa, I recommend the work of Dr. Paul Farmer and Parnters in Health (www.pih.org). Also, check out the book "Mountains Beyond Mountains" by Tracy Kidder to learn of Farmer's approach to world's most desperately poor.

I mention these resources because of Farmer's approach to getting to root causes for poverty and infectious disease. In doing so, much larger and more difficult questions are raised with regard to what we're really trying to do and help.

While we're at it, have a look at our response to the (Product)RED campaign, which we're calling (Red)emption.

I don't want to be misunderstood. I am an evangelical, not a liberal. I do believe that the heart of our mission is guiding people towards an encounter with Chirst, who died to save us from our sin and reconcile us to God and rose again to make that new relationship with God a living and eternal reality. I believe that we do not bring people into the kingdom of God only by caring for them in their suffering. But we are not likely to awaken their thirst for fellowship with God unless we are prepared to get down beside them in their suffering, whatever the cause of it happens to be. The cause of it is always sin, whether it be mainly their own or mainly someone else's. But that fact can only make us more, not less, compassionate. If our commitment to the gospel, the good news that God wants to break into people's lives even through their suffering, is strong enough, if it is genuine, then we need have no fear of it being compromised by our necessary association with "co-belligerents" who are actually pursuing other agendas. Indeed if it is genuine, then, quite the opposite will happen. We will awaken thirst for God among our co-belligerents too. I would appeal once more to the example of Wilberforce. He did not only contribute to the liberation of slaves. He also contributed (and still does) to the liberation of secular humanists from their spiritual indifference. They see in people like him that evil is not rooted out by legislation or by education (many of the slave traders were high up in the European intelligensia), but by unflinching love for human beings created in the image of God and objects of God's love. In Wilberforce's day there was nothing in secular humanist philosophies that provided that inspiration. And there isn't today either. Our ideological root is not the American or any other constitution, but the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection.

Part I
As a heterosexual woman living with HIV it still amazes me, but then again...not really, how this topic is still taboo and still labeled as being gay, lesbian, poor issue. Yes we have our statistics but as those of us who have educated ourselves more on this disease, there are still a lot of people from all walks of life who have the disease and don't know it as a result of fear and ignorance. I still believe we have a long way before this country or the world for that matter, will embrace those of us who unfortunately have to live with this taboo. The bottom line is you don't hear the same rebuttles and comments when we are talking about Breast Cancer or any other chronic illness. I embrace them all and would not wish this disease on my worst enemy. I am a believer, a Christian, I know Christ for myself, and from what I know how this country views the whole topic of HIV/AIDS, especially some of my fellow "Christian believers"...some are casting stones. I knew Christ before I was infected and continued to follow him after being exposed to the disease. See part II of this post…

Part II
Yes I'm sure some Politicians may only do it for the PR, so what...the topic needs to be discussed, exposed, it's real, it's not going away. People really need to educate themselves. Remember the word ignorance simply means: NOT KNOWING. Let's focus on the issue at hand, finding a cure, education for prevention, helping the less fortunate who can't afford the medication. And please...I'm not trying to offend anyone; I have some people very close to me who have survived breast cancer, and friends and family members over in Iraq. But I still see more pink ribbons and yellow ribbons than the red...fear shame and just simply not understanding, it breaks my heart sometimes. We do need to check ourselves, because you never know if it can happen to you or someone your love. Jesus is love and if we are suppose to STRIVE to be Christ like, and then we need to remember to have grace for those of us who still may not believe. Sow your seed, it may not sprout, but someone else may come along and sow another seed, eventually it will grow. Look in the mirror and remember we are not perfect anyone on this earth who believes they are perfect don’t really understand the Word of God…we can only strive for perfection to be the best that we can be, Jesus was the only perfect man to walk this earth. Blessing, Peace and love to all this Holiday season!

When did we decide that it was our job as Christians to make judgement calls on others lifestyles, etc.? Aren't we called to bring those who are in pain, suffering, and doubt TO Christ? That is where they will find hope and unconditional love - through us. Then Christ takes the reigns and does the softening, healing, and convicting. Is it any wonder why many who need Christ's love are afraid or distrustful of the church? We will all be judged for our lives on earth eventually. I'm just grateful that the judgement that matters is that of a merciful God and not the judgement of men on earth! Let's remember that there is a big difference between holding others accountable and judging.

"For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me."

In Matthew 25:31-46 I didn't find that I had to ask first whether those who need my help are rightous enough to qualify, or that my help was wasted if it isn't connected to evangelization (I think merely loving help is evangelization in itself). I found that a poor, sick, or miserable human being, is a representation of Jesus Christ put in my way to show the dimensions of my love and gratitude to him. He said so.

Ukraine, my poor home country, and Russia, our mighty neighbor, both are rapidly advancing to the "leading" position in Europe and the world on this horrible issue. Why? Because kommunistic ideology destroyed society's moral complitely. And the Soviets simply killed tens of millions of people. Priests, scientists, farmers, owners of businesses, Christians...- those who are responcible for moral wealth of every country. Some of those money invested in the Lord's work there can cover huge territory with a network of churches. The churches, by preaching God's truth about sin and His judgement can light the light for many. A lot of lives can be saved from sin, from hell, from AIDS... And you still have enough money available to cover Obama's check. But who cares here, what some poor Ukrainian brother says? We'll better spend billions by pursuing our own plans, because we know better what is good for the Kingdom! - That's what I often can see in the eyes of some famous Pastors, who can read Bible on Hebrew, but refuse to tell the truth to their congregations. I feel sorry for saying that, but this is just an example. And I can say that there is some great deception in Warren's approach to this tragic problem. First of all we should, we must say His Word for the salvation of souls and for judgment of many!

I think we are getting off topic here. I think as Christians we SHOULD be out there fighting things like AIDS and other "human" issues. I think its OK if we fight the same things as unbelievers, and beside unbelievers. As my sister's church says: Bring a living Jesus to a Dying world. But I think for me, the issue is inviting Obama to the CHURCH to speak. I say, hey, invite him to speak, invite anyone to speak on behalf of AIDS awarenes/assistance. But my issue is, did he have to invite him to the church to make it appear as if the church endorses Obama's opinions/beliefs, or, for that matter, that Obama endorses the opinions/beliefs of the church (which neither does the other, I would guess). I guess I wouldn't have had an issue if it had been at another location. I dont think even Jesus, loving the sinners as he did, would have invited them to teach at the temple. Or Paul, as he preached to multitudes, would have said, "hey, here's a buddy of mine, he doesnt believe in Jesus, but he can assist us with helping us feed the poor her, so lets give him a round of applause and listen to what he has to teach us". So, please separate the issues. I think Warren is doing good by being involved in this issue. I think we as the church should join in on whatever needs we see in poeple. I think its oK if he works with Obama. However, maybe next time you dont have to invite him to teach at the hcurch. I mean, I know its just a builidng and the ark of the convenent isnt there or anyting, I just think it sends an unspoken statement about who steps up to that pulpit.

As a Chinese Christian, I have learned that it is not social justice bring people to Christ but the genius Christian’s love and moral discipline bring people to Christ.

So, what are we talking here is about Christian’s love or social justice? To shows genius Christian loves, I believe we do not need to alliance with unbelievers. Jesus did not alliance with Romans nor did He alliance with phrases to advance the kingdom of God! To do social justice, however, we cannot do by ourselves because there is always poor among us, as Jesus said in John 12:7. If so, then, when alliance with any organization of this world, let us admit that what we do is about social justice and has nothing to do with advancement of the kingdom of God!

On the AIDS issue, all discussion here seems centered on how terrible is that AIDS kills so many people. Do we care those souls or those human lives? We all know everyone will die one day. We also know that Bible tells us heaven is far better than this world. So what are issues about death? Should not we care more about the salvation of souls? If we care about death, should not we pay more attention to abortion that kills more unborn children than AIDS infected people?

For those people praise Rick Warren’s tactics in involving Obama because the summit can save human life, please tell me that you also participate in pro-life movement to save millions of unborn children! If you care about suffering, please tell me you also concern tens of millions of cancer patients who suffer more pain than AIDS! Are not cancer and abortion more urgent than AIDS in both quality and quantity?

Church in the western world has so much indulgent in social justice and forgets that the souls are more important than lives. I do not mean that we do not have social responsibility because we are Christians. We do, but let us fulfill our social responsibility in the context of social justice. Please do not taint God’s Gospel with the philosophy of this world!

Great post! I think Rick needed to do what he did. I once new a very successful business man who actually controlled the majority of his industry. Yet many thought he was a minor player. He'd buy a competitor and keep their name on the front door. Why because it is American to bash "the big boyz". Rick doesn't have the luxury of "minimizing" the bulls eye on his back. I applaud his courage to do what might be unpopular with some, to save lives. If the good samaratian had been a pro-choice, gay, demorcrat...would you have helped him? I think far too many in the American Evangelical church would pass him by. Jesus' harsh words today would be towards the "church", sin in our camp & self-righteousness, keep us from reaching the least of these. What would He say to the sinners? Something akin to "lets spend time together." The hard sayings of Christ are to His church; the loving embrace is to a dying world to bring them home! Jesus will never rebuke you for helping the lest of these...but His words might sting, "If you confuse the work of His KINGDOM, with the Kingdoms of this world!

I understand that we all come into this world "Dead in sin and if not for the Love of God, Jesus, would Die in that same sin."
In other words we all came in to this world self righteous, as in, whatever the choice... we considered it right at the time. Serving one of two masters, never, ever in between.

Let us consider everyone a victim of someone else's choice and free all the prisoners in our jails and to ensure that they will be a compliment to society; let us give them about 50,000 dollars a year for just being them. That would work wouldn't it... change the environment but keep the same old stink inside.

And it's a great stink, turn on your TV's and get a whiff of it. Read most of the printed materials and listen to most of the music give testimony to that stink. Try to resuscitate

the dead that can not Live. Prop the corpse with stilts and paint it's face rosy.

please don't tell the emperor that He doesn't wear any clothes for you shall be deemed a fool. Rely on your own wit to rise to the top of the pyramid since the flow will be accepted by all that is considered wise.

Whatever you do, don't expect a miracle. Figure it out yourself on how to logically smoothen salvation out to the point of recognition; after all, isn't this what Jesus would do?

I am kind of tired of big names stepping up and with one fell swoop condemning everyone who apparently isn't doing anything to help the weak. That is bogus. Just because you don't jump on board or should I say "in bed" with Rick Warren or Obama concerning AIDS doesn't mean you are a deadbeat. Yes it is a tragedy that 8000 people die everyday because of AIDS but what of the 126,000 worldwide who are aborted every day? One is a disease and the other a decision. It is absolute and glaring hypocrisy to wag your finger at people who criticize Warren from inviting a pro-abortion politician (defined as one who uses governmental influence to pass and support legislation that makes it legal to kill unborn, innocent children) to speak on the topic of life and then say "saving lives is more important to us than political alignment". What a load of garbage. Where's the proof? Hypocrites... white washed sepulchers that outwardly appear good and noble but inside stink of death.