As a United Methodist, I will say that I wish the children of Wesley were as committed in practice to his thinking as he was in his own practice. Alas, we are not and need Rev. Johnson to press this question with us as much as anyone.

Nevertheless, this is a place I have personally appreciated Wesley's reading of the NT and all of Scripture really. Salvation/being saved is not essentially about going to heaven when we die, though that ends up being entailed in what salvation is. Salvation is being reconciled with God and having our lives restored to the divine image by being formed into the likeness of Christ. It's about being caught up in the Life of God. Sanctification or growth in grace to the end of "holiness of heart and life," to use a phrase of Wesley's, is not a nice, but unnecessary, add-on. It's simply naturally entailed in what salvation actually is. Our theology of salvation needs restoring to the robust understanding of Scripture itself.

Humbly, again, would that Wesley's spiritual children practice what he practiced and preached so that our witness would bless the whole Church.

the problem with this is that it hints (unintentionally?) at a standard. yet i can't escape grace. grace has no standard, that is what makes it grace.

what is more, i bristle at the suggestion that there is something out there that represents what it means to be a "disciple."

what if this Ray was doing his best? what if god's plan for this Ray was for him to continue on as this bitter type person?

then i begin to look inward and i see that there is no standard for discipleship that i meet. god forbid if my community of faith decided that this needed attention. i have been through that trial by ordeal and will have none of it.

Ray didn't change because he didn't have to. Apparently no one talked to Ray or confronted him on matters of personal discipleship. In the church we are often more interested in keeping the peace than conforming to Christ, frankly, because it's easier. It's easier to say, "well, that's just the way Ray is..." than have that intimidating heart to heart conversation.

The church needs to learn how to be real and honest and how to become entrenched in one another's lives, embracing true friendship and a mutual commitment to pursue the claims of Christ on our lives. But that's work and involves regular self-denial. We tend to prefer an easier path.

The evidence of the Kingdom isn't really seen in what we know (apparently, Ray was quite knowledgeable), but in how we live together (and they shall know you are My disciples by your love...). In the end, I'm sure that Ray probably really did go to Heaven. It is the grace of God, apprehended by our faith in Him, that enables our redemption and not our works or degree of outward change (who of us gets to be that judge?). But Ray's lack of personal growth and development in his faith probably also created it's own kind of temporary hell for those around him while he was alive. And for that, it would seem the church also bears some responsibility.

Your soul can be "saved," but it can be really unhealthy.

Sure makes me wonder what happens to Ray in heaven (assuming he gets there). Do we suddenly get a personality transplant?

C.S. Lewis would probably say that the question is not how much better Ray ought to be, but how much worse would he be without Christ. I think he'd then point out that Ray's plight ought to cause each of us to ask ourselves where in our lives we have resisted the Spirit's cleansing.

Having said that, I do have a bit of a problem with Mike's suggestion that God's plan might be for Ray to actually be a bitter person. That would be strange considering what the Bible says about God's will and provision for his children, their lives, and their character.

As a pastor who currently is not working in a church, I read this and wept.

It hit close to home. You can guess why I am not working at a church right now.

Just imagine a board full of "Ray" type guys. Just imagine the debilitating, discouraging and embittering effects of such "leadership". Just imagine watching 4 staff pastors leave within 18 months along with 3 other ministry staff--driven out by the unchecked behavior of "Rays". Just imagine a senior pastor standing by and then later going along with it for the sake of job security and ease.

The sad thing is that all the staff pastors and ministry staff brought the very questions this article raises up again and again. It wasn't just in the board, it was and is rampant in the congregation. No surprise when you consider the elders on the board have been the same for 30 years. Sowing, reaping.

Too often we expect pastors to "lay down" for it in the name of "being like Jesus": longsuffering, compassionate, sacrificial.

But that is all pious language designed to keep pastors from doing the real work of shepherding. It keeps us from dealing with ugly reality that many times pastors are "owned" by the people who pay their salary. They can't lay the wood to people who are poisoning the church environment. The "Rays" know it and act accordingly.

We don't need "watchdogs" in our churches. We need friends who share a vision for ministry with whom we can vulnerable.

The sad, sick thing is there are too many evangelicals who think that the christian life is the equivalent of being in everyone's back yard and nit picking the very staff that sacrifice their lives everyday for the care of their souls.

I hope this article hits a nerve with more people. It sure did with me...

Well, I appreciate the article. But I am looking for something a little different. I would have rather read, "How I confronted an older man about his lack of transformation, and what came of it." This would be a hard thing to do well with respect to 1 Timothy 5:1. I'm longing to hear stories of "stuck-in-the-mud" Christians making new and bold strides in their pursuit of Christ-likeness.

I agree with the general thrust of the post, that there is a severe lack of intentional spiritual formation going on in our churches. In many churches, the primary driving mission of the church is to reach “the lost” and move them towards being “Christ-followers.” Once they become Christ-followers, they’re expected to “feed” themselves.

In other churches, no thought is given to evangelism at all. Instead these churches take pride in their excellency of doctrine, and that their members can all delineate the finest distinctions of systematic theologies. If some don’t like it, and leave, it’s probably because they weren’t “real” Christians. After all, real Christians are always ready for “strong meat.”

The problem with both of these (admittedly simplified) positions is that very little care is being given to nurture spiritual growth in God’s people. In both cases, people are left on their own to figure out the oftentimes hard work of spiritual growth in Christ. Perhaps this lack explains why the church in America, statistically speaking, lacks vigor.

You may not have known everything about his life. He may have had other personal struggles or grief that was hard to overcome. Other people that knew him in other circumstances might have seen a completely different person, full of compassion. People are complex. Plus, I don’t think the fruits of the spirit can be reduced to simply having a pleasant personality. That would almost be a popularity requirement for being saved.

Is this a new standard? Perhaps. But it is a far better one than what we've historically been using to take the measure of one's discipleship. It really doesn't matter what your church attendance record is, how worn your Bible is, or how pious you are if at the end of the day you're still a judgmental, self-impressed jerk. Spiritual discipline that is not transformational is more dangerous than spiritual neglect because it innoculates the disciple from criticism and honest self-knowledge.

The church absolutely has to change the standard of discipleship if we are to ever address the failure of our prescriptions (church attendance, Bible study, tithing, service, etc.) to produce healthy people who reflect the character of Christ.

in reading this, i think i finally understand what paul meant by "the law kills." when we set up rules and regulations AND COMPARE PEOPLE TO THEM the law becomes a tool which too many will use to judge others and kill human spirit. there's just this sense that we're never good enough - that we have this standard of perfection ("be perfect - as i am perfect") and all that we'll ever see in relation to that is failure.

as i've said here before, i don't think having a canon/bible was ever what God wanted - especially now that we've traded one set of "laws" for another.

and before you say, "well, no rules just gives us a license to steal", try to imagine a corollary to "shall we keep on sinning that grace may abound". the problem is we think the answer to all-hell-breaking-loose-sinning is to swing the pendulum to the other extreme and start having our own set of shalts.

i like what mike had to say above.

and what mike had to say here, now that i think about it...

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

The reason we call the fruit of the Spirit the fruit of the Spirit is because it takes the Spirit of God to produce it.

The reason you don't see transformations that bring about the fruit of the Spirit is the Spirit is not Lord of the church, man is. Where He is Lord, He manifests His attributes.

The only reason Ray stuck out like a sore thumb is he was in great need of that fruit.

Most possess common courtesy,(which is the face we put on for men), and think we are good enough.

We aren't as grumpy and socially inept as Ray. So we don't need God like Ray.

How utterly like the pharisees we have become in this Loadacian age.

http://my.opera.com/Boanerges/blog/

Jesus, in addition to shedding His grace abundantly upon us all, also said: "Follow me, die to yourself, leave the things and ones you love behind for My sake." Sounds like a standard to me. Does the reception of grace not guide us to responsibility? Or rather, does the kindness of God lead us to repentance?

Pastorburt wrote "Ray didn't change because he didn't have to. Apparently no one talked to Ray or confronted him on matters of personal discipleship." I have witnessed this first hand. A couple of years ago, my mom told me that one of the couples from the church where I grew up were divorcing because she finally had reached her limit with regards to his extra marital affairs. You guessed it - he was an elder for all of my childhood. As a matter of fact, after hearing this news, I was discussing it with a friend from a church in a neighboring town. I never mentioned an name, he told me exactly who it was. If it was common knowledge, then why was this man allowed to be a "pillar" of the church? What is up with that?

I'm perplexed by the import of some of the comments on this post. They seem to be saying that Christian leaders should feel content when people in their congregation never grow in Christ, that Christians ought to be at peace when they themselves never grow more Christ-like, that to apply any standard at all, even to ourselves, is to advance some sort of unholy judgmentalism.

So then to be a Christ-follower means what in the life of the believer? How sad, and dumbfounding considering how much of the New Testament is concerned with exhorting the believer to grow in Christ in word, thought, and deed.

We ought to do so out of love of Jesus, not out of obligation. Nevertheless, the ought remains.

As well as describing the fruit of the Spirit, Paul wrote about the works of the flesh--you know, sexual immorality, wrath, jealousy, envy, enmity--that kind of stuff. And when he described these things he made a stern statement: "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." Poor Paul--exchanging one standard for another, obviously undermining the concept of grace! Grace includes the power to live like Christ through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we leave this out, then we are teaching a deficient gospel. Did Ray ever wonder why his life was so much less than the lives of the disciples who were filled with love for one another as well as for their Lord? Did he decide that God wasn't really strong enough to change his personality? Or did he justify all that bitterness as "righteous anger"? But the scariest part is: "not only did Ray never change, but no one seemed to expect him to."

Cheap grace and Cheap theology.

We suffer with Cheap grace when we allow anyone who can recite a certain confession to claim membership. I know too many people who have only mimicked the sinner's prayer that it is only a meaningless confession.

Cheap theology leads us into places where we are paralyzed into inaction because of our Biblical incompetence. We refuse to take a stand or make a judgment because of one or two verses while ignore other verses that contradict our position.

I have more at My blog

Interesting post. My only question is what was Ray like before he met the Lord. Maybe we came into Ray's story in the middle of the book and got to the end without ever reading the prologue. Maybe Ray was a lot less scary when he died than when the Lord first grabbed him.

Watcha think?

A very interesting post indeed. I think the question has less to do with Ray particularly (did he evidence 'change' in his life that no one ever saw?) because we all know people who are long-time churchgoing people who seem to demonstrate zero significant change in their life as a result of becoming "saved". What is up with that? And more saddening (maddening), the church seems not to notice.

I would like to propose what several of the post-ers have hinted at--that we are somewhat deficient in our understanding of salvation. It seems to me that in the Evangelical culture of "praying the prayer to be saved", we have effectively equated salvation with justification. Indeed, this is one of the major characteristics of the Protestant Reformation is a return to the Biblical doctrine of justification. However, in equating salvation with justification, we have missed what the Scripture says about salvation being not just about justification, but also about sanctification and also glorification.

We have done well in preaching and teaching Ephesians 2:8-9, "by grace are you saved through faith, and this (salvation) is not of yourselves, but is the gift of God, not by works . . ." But, we have done less well in teaching Ephesians 2:10, "[we have been] created in Christ Jesus for good works." We have also neglected severely the numerous Scripture passages that teach God will judge ALL MEN (and women) according to what they have done. This is not a judgment from which Christians are exempt.

One final disclaimer. I am NOT suggesting in any way that our salvation is works-based. We do not earn our salvation. However, Scripture I think is clear that a life that demonstrates no evidence of change is not a life that has experienced the salvation of God through Christ.

The real issue is that many in the American Church have a "list" of acceptable and unacceptable sins. Have an anger or pride problem? That's acceptable. That's "just the way he is." Got a problem with a sexual addiction? "Throw the bum out!"

I never saw a clearer example until the local church (which I recently left) decided to kick out a woman who was promiscuous. Several in the church were trying to help her. I'm happy to say they have succeeded in spite of the church, and she is now happily married, -very- faithful to her husband, and most importantly, growing in the Lord. Meanwhile, the same leadership that booted her has several men with serious pride and anger management issues, including the pastor, who has a flaming temper problem and a huge ego.

What's wrong with this picture???

Yet, over and over, I hear similar stories from other folks. Nasty people are tolerated, mostly because they intimidate others, while nicer people with personal problems are treated like dirt.

Bretheren, this ought not to be!

Jim

In my first full time Pastorate, I had two Ray types on the board and simultaneously on the worship team. Being the post modern/ free spirited person I am...you can imagine how my personality and ministry style went over with the Rays! In my first two years we went logger heads many times. I had many sleepness nights. They threatened to divide the Church, but finally a miracle took place. The Rays could hack it and pulled up and left. A few others trickled out the door in disgust. But the climate of our Church almost immediately changed and the Church began to grow. Now, nearly Four years later we have been all to the better for standing our ground. Don't get me wrong, there is hope for people like Ray. But we must never let them control the agenda! Take my word for it, it's better to stand up to people like Ray sooner rather than later. The battle we fought with the Rays was worth it to save the Church.

Maybe God's will is that this man remain bitter? Say what?

Jesus does set a very clear standard of discipleship. "Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it.'" Mark 8:34-35

Discipleship costs us our all. What's so amazing about grace then? The amazing thing about grace is that Jesus has freed us from the power of sin. We are now able to give him everything. We are slaves to righteousness!

See also Ephesians 4:20-32 & Romans 6-8. We are not called to remain in our old selfs but to put it off. Praise the God who sets the captives free!!! :-)

We may not always display Christ-likeness, but to accredit that to the will of God for our lives is a backwards and unbiblical view of God.

The grace of God, and our humility before secret work of the Holy Spirit within the human heart leads me to think someone like Ray has a place in church as long as he or she is not tearing it apart, but why was he an elder. That makes no sense to me.

Can anyone be a disciple and not become like Jesus? What a great question for the church today! May God help us to be what He calls us to be.

The problem with "Rays" is they don't understand grace.

The problem is us is we don't treat "Rays" with grace.

No Andy, I'm sorry. The problem with us is not that we don't treat "Rays" with grace. It is that we give them a pass, we allow them into positions of power and then we allow them to stay in those positions, we don't expect better of them, we let them abuse the sheep, we allow them to be stumbling blocks for others, and we're afraid of them.

Pastor Greg Boyd (Myth of A Christian Nation) puts it this way in his blog (christusvictorministries.org)(paraprhased)

the commitment one makes offer ones life to Christ IS NOT the actual life one lives to honor that commitment. (go to his blog, he's more eloquent than I)

It's kind've Weslyian. Mental assent to propositions doesn't really make one "more like Jesus". Are you saved...probably...do you need to let God go to work on you...deffinately. Should pastors and spiritual leaders encourage, exhort, and discipline you during that process (HECK YES!!!!!!) If they don't they're impotent leaders. Someone earlier said something like we have no model for what it means to be a disciple....ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDING ME?????!!!!! HIS NAME IS JESUS and there are four great books about what living/acting like Him are like....get real.

Salvation is a gift, and thank God for that. Holiness....that takes work! I think the problem is this (and Willard would agree). Being externally pious is no guarantee of a life lives close to, and transformed by God. The life lived close to God...will be transformed into the image of God. Hence the idea of being made like Christ.

It seems to me we all like to ignore the book of James. It makes our simple faith to difficult.

Jason

my church had several "Rays" - they made life miserable for the pastors, the congregation and mostly themselves when they couldn't get their way - the power struggle was tremendous. They never "grew" in their faith; they only "grew" in their own little world of control....they left to join other congregations where hopefully they are now "happy" - our congregation is so much better now - we have a vision team and are planning ways in which our church can really grow and search out in our community those people who truly need the love of Jesus -

I think that one of the reasons there are so many "Rays" out there in our churches that, as Willard points out in Renovation of the Heart, for a very long time, there has been no expectation that members will actually be disciples. Sort of goes hand-in-hand with the biblically-offbase notion that you can be a Christian and then choose whether or not you would like to be a disciple. Someone on this blog made a great quote how churches today cater to people who want the benefits of being Christian without paying the cost. I wrote about this recently:

"Sadly though, human beings often seem to fall far short of our potential. We fail to be Christ for the world; we may even drive people away from Christ by our actions or lack of action. Rather than standing out from the world, we try to blend into the world around us. We’re afraid to stand out from the crowd and be identified as followers of Christ. We want the benefits of being a Christian without having to pay any of the cost. What we forget is that in the end, it costs us so much more when we refuse to claim our identity and pay the full cost of being a follower of Christ."

For more see: http://www.3cords.org/blogs/canthesebonesliveagain/archive/2007/04/05/Vanguard-of-the-Second-Coming.aspx

"I'm longing to hear stories of "stuck-in-the-mud" Christians making new and bold strides in their pursuit of Christ-likeness.
"

I highly recommend "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality" by Peter Scazzero for one such story.

Grace is amazing.
This is why we call it a faith journey.
I made my confession of faith at 11. I was saved at that point in my life.
But, I’m not even sure I recognized there was something else I needed to do (read: turn my will over). Sure, I was saved, but I chose to continue to make the wrong choices. Not read the word, not to seek to be transformed.
Many years later, I rededicated my life to Christ. THAT is when the real changes started to occur.
All those years in between though, I professed my salvation, but my actions didn’t reflect it. I lived hard and made tons of really bad choices.
But, that is a very common theme, I believe, in the 1950-60’s paradigm of civic minded church, salvation = justification + transformation.
I feel it is crucial to work towards developing the person’s relationship with Christ. Spiritual disciplines, pray, study, and so on. Develop the PASSION for Christ. That is what transforms people lives. But, the fact remains that God gives us free will and we have a choice to be transformed or not.
I believe justification comes through salvation. It is a line we cross, a line of demarcation. Just like we can’t go back into our mother’s womb.
But, sanctification doesn’t come with salvation. That is a second choice that we make.
I am glad that God was patient with me. For my life has since been transformed. Not perfect, that’s for sure. But transforming each day.
My heart is always seeking to find out why a person hasn’t started on the road of transformation. God’s mercy has allowed me to use my bad choices to help others in their journey. For example when I see some one with a lack of self respect and self-worth that leads to a promiscuous lifestyle, I understand that they don’t grasp “Who’s” they are and that God loves us perfectly.
So for me, it is critical not to stop the faith journey at the line of salvation, but encourage people forward on their journey towards transformation. And to always remember, we don’t change people lives, God does.
Doro
love God, love others, it’s simple

I have read through all the posts, and can't believe that while so many of us are either ready to "pass righteous judgment" or give Ray a "free pass with cheap grace/theology" no one asks about the sin of the Church. Our sin in these situations.

Some have alluded to it. You know what I am talking about, the "dirty little secrets" everyone knows about: the teenagers who are way too affectionate with each other and "going to get themselves in trouble;" the unfaithful husbands and wives who are "staying together for the kids;" and yes, even the Rays who are "just that way" as they wound and injure others in a place we call "the sanctuary."

So I ask, what is our sin? Where are we? Not to confront, or judge, or even drag these sinners out the door by their ear...we're not even asked to do that much. The truth is we don't even care enough to have a conversation with the person that we are all talking about, as we all stand around at a safe distance and watch others struggle, wound, and fail.

It begs the question who has truly failed here? Who is failing now?

I am so interested in this subject right now.I've been doing an in depth study on it for a while and what i'm finding is very interesting, but hardly ever talked about. I believe that there is a large group of people out there who think they're saved but are in for a rude awakening when they stand before God.The bible teaches that choosing God is not a one time, verbal agreement. It's a continual decision. The bible says we must continue in the faith. We may say with our mouths that we know Jesus or He is our Lord but if our actions say different were decieving ourselves. He knows the true thoughts and intents of our hearts. One of our problems is that we take God and His word too lightly.It's a package deal He can't be savior but not lord. It's all or nothing. Salvation to me is not as easy as some explain it to be.It's a free gift that cost you your life.