I avoid the negative in seminaries, plain and simple. If you are following your calling you should be content and happy.

Pastors are like few others in that they are called to be a part of great times, and bad times. One can truly do a funeral in the morning, and a wedding in the afternoon. sure this wears us down, but a good, life giving congregation should be able to negate the highs and lows by pulling along side their pastor and loving them, loving them, and loving them some more.

I was happy until I read those stats.

Oh well.

Steve.

Wow, the latter stats sound too high. But even with that, I would believe that they are truer than the ones from the Chicago story. You may have a good theory about when they were polled. But how about this instead? The happy ones were polled before a meeting and the others were polled after one. Or possibly the content ones thought they were being polled by their leadership committee (PPR, Administrative Board, Board of Deacons, etc.) so they lied.

So in other words, the rates of divorce, moral failure, career change, depression, etc... occur at roughly the same rate for pastors as they do for the population in general. Interesting.

I think what the Tribune has found is the same thing that others have found; the "halo rule". It's not just for football, but for a pastor to say that they're anything less than "very satisfied" with their work would be somehow acknowledging that what they're doing is less than what the world sees as worthwhile. I'm not saying that the Tribune people lied, but I'm also not surprised at the disparity, because after all, Pastors are human men who struggle with validation, even if we try to hide it in "spiritual" language.

I'd be scared to see the same stats for spouses or partners of those in pastoral ministry.

I admit I'm cynical, but I wonder how many respondents answered the survey questions sincerely and how many approached the survey with the same facade with which they have been conditioned to approach everything else.

Maybe Focus on the Family and Barna are measuring the results from the "squeaky wheels" kind of pastors. Maybe the Tribune/UC measured results from pastors who had not read anything by Warren, Hybels, Dobson, Maxwell, etc, and thus were not struggling with the pressure to grow their church through evangelism and effective church administration; pastors who spent more time just doing life with people instead of trying to change them.

I'm not making a value statement, just an observation.

Wow, someone beat me to my port and his name is Rick too.

Statistics mean something if they point out an anomaly or discrepancy. Sadly, half the points are similar to the rest of the population. So divorce rate for pastors are similar to the rest of the church which is coincidently the same for the rest of the population! Do not use statistics poorly if you want to be taken seriously.

Yes the others, especially the depression statistic, should give us pause. It is a good question to ask why are there two seemingly different results. The question I have to ask is how were both of these surveys were done? Without such information we might as well try to hold the wind.

I think we need to look at what percentage of people were properly ordained. Or are we just looking at a group of people who thought they were following God but were mistaken somehow?

I have had some difficulty in the past wondering if the " call " of God is more to being human than to be anything else. Our humanity has been lost and held captive through ages by self-relience in the vain imagery that is swayed by and out of fear in fleeting timeless moments experienced in the NO of God.

I don't understand how we "do" a wedding or we "do" a funeral other than with Him who we have to do with. I work among people that "do" work with much overtime in heat and cold (and nights} so that thay can afford a mortgage. They don't have to "do" anything but whatever they "do". That is why we are admonished in whatever we do, do it unto the Glory of God.

"Pastors are like few others in that they are called to be a part of great times, and bad times." Sounds to me like a basic description of what it's like to be a Christian or as Jesus would say " Born from Above."

We are not being conformed to a Pastor but the Life giving Spirit, the Son of God.

Yesterday, I received a call at work from my wife who just found out that, that morning a friend of ours' 19 year old son had hanged himself. Nowhere in my grief could I deem his life a waste as my sobbing body reacted in it's part of sacrifice and my spirit proclaimed " Blessed be the name of the Lord."

There is sadness and Joy in both a wedding and a funeral for both say goodbye to one life and Hello to Another Life. Out of seperation into oneness. That is what baptism signifies as an external and in which we paricipate with the Joy provided.

May we, by the Grace given to us, continue to keep our eyes on the total Life given to us freely in the form of blood willingly shed that can't be reasond by anyone but Love. Led us turn quickly in our yoke and be reminded by it that His burden is light and His yoke is easy. Let us not gauge suffering nor exhilaration but present our bodies as in Rom 12:1

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Thank you.

Perhaps the root of the problem is in the seminary atmosphere itself. Well-meaning professors, usually "battle-scarred" ministry veterans themselves, warn young ministers of the hardships of ministry but do little to teach them how to cope.

We do have to encounter people at their worst, but we are also priviledged be present when they are at their best.
If seminaries would spend more time teaching young ministers how to "strengthen themselves in the Lord," and a little less time of theology and church growth strategies perhaps the numbers wouldn't be so disturbing

53% of statistics are made up on the spot:)

I'd venture to say that most pastors know they are "supposed to be happy with their calling," but the reality of the pastoral practice leaves them somewhat to very frustrated. We are happy with knowing that we are being obedient to God, but unhappy with other's acknowledgment of our calling and respecting our leadership.

I've just concluded 30 years of pasttoral ministry and am moving into a whole new expression of ministry. Part of it is because I'm weary of dealing with church politics, unruly sheep, and the demands of a 24-7 calling. But the biggest reason is that I can be more effective for the kingdom doing something other than pastoring at this stage of my life.

I'm inclined to believe that both sets of stats are correct, but because of different ways of interpreting what ministry is.

The pastors I know love what they do in spite of all the hard stuff. Why else would they keep doing it?

I think the initial positive stats reflect the value pastors see in their job. The latter stats reflect the toll their job takes. It also depends on the geography, the specific congregation and a number of other factors that may be disproportionately represented in the different samples. Pastors also tend to have something of a messianic complex, or an exaggerated view of their sacrificial role in society, which may polarize their response.

A serious mistake is being made by many in this discussion. The Tribune was reporting on feelings and opinions, which are extremely easy to misrepresent. Little should be made of them. Statistics on divorce and "numbers leaving the ministry", however, are not opinions but hard facts. A person either has, or has not, divorced (or left the ministry). Unless outright lies are being told, these numbers should exactly correspond to reality. It is foolish to challenge facts with opinions.
A divorce rate of fifty percent among pastors indicates an American ecclesiastical train wreck. Anyone who ignores, minimizes, or tries to put a positive spin on this scandalous reality is, at best, desperately apathetic about pleasing God. I know that's a value judgment, but it is a valid one. It's past time for the church to stop following deceptive feelings/opinions and face the truth that we are in deep trouble with God.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

I would be more surprised if the stastistics were much less than they are since the learned gospel appears so greatly to preach unity to a creed or core values rather than a Living, Vibrant, Risen and Honestly Humble and Spontanous Life that seems to be so rare.

Myself, I never tell anyone that the church is the answere, nor that going to church is the answere but always point to the Head which is the Life seated at the right hand of God. I am told, and by God's Grace believe, we are not of this world even though we are in it. Many teach that bringing someone to church is bringing them to salvation. Many it would seem, experience salvation as church members when they are at the church building or pot luck, once out of familiarity they are in a battle which they think is theirs.

When God gives us the single eye, and He totaly did... Jesus, then we see the organized church as a symbol of the everpresent Church where there isn't any room to see God allowing a wasted moment that didn't work towards redemption. If the bride in a marriage is a symbol of the Church, and She is, then how do we view her? Could we indentify ourselves as with a blind man who fell in love with Her when he was told of Her beauty and then after having his eyesight restored beheld a lady full of makeup and effort to please her groom? There are many "small" churches and many "large" churches out in the world but you can't identify them by size only by the Life they gained by the life they lost.

If the above appears to anyone as giving disscredit to meetings as in the one where I raised my hand so many years ago... it is not. The best place is always where God has us and in that we don't complain about our work nor what God is doing, nor who should get paid for how much.

Thank you.

EXECELLENT point Roy about feelings statistics vs. real events statistics! The professionalized pastoral SYSTEM has deep "issues", or should I be forth right and say sinfulness. There is interest on the part of many to white wash it or spread jelly over the burned toast. There is too much money for the clergy and too much passivity for the layman for either to test the system and the texts used to justify it. "Test everything, hold on to that which is good." Part of the problem is that God's grace is so deep, He can use the sinful system. We wind up enlarging the sinful system so that God's grace can be seen more, even though Paul says "It should never be this way." Brothers, please seek to walk by faith, not by the sight of long generations of tradition passed down by men. Look at ALL of Paul's teaching, both in word AND example, on the economics of church leadership, not just those that talk about "the right to be paid". Tradition is trumping truth on this regard.

Perhaps there is another explanation to these stats. Is it possible that the UC/Trib stats were gathered from Mainline churches and the other set came from Evangelical/Pentecostal/Charismatic pastors? It would be interesting to see how that would effect the interpretation.

The viberant echo " Oh taste and see, the Lord is Good." resonates more out of seriousness than happiness. True Joy comes from the seriousness of rightousness of Life in our Daily Bread.

We may find ourselves, at a time, grieving not to proclaim that the King is at our house but that the King is at Home, and so it should be.

Fear of the unability to trust ourselves due to the fall, still can not fanthom the I AM of God nor the depht of His Love for us. We sometimes look at our situations as the pearl of great price, esteeming it with the due attention wether we really did leave it all to follow. We can wash our hands of proclaiming Truth and still deem ourselves as peacemakers, that is, an artificial peace, but then, you can't proclaim something or someone you don't know.

So now, let our shiny Pastors be the broken bread of the mystery of the gospel now revealed, Christ in you, the Hope of Glory. Let happy be secondary to the statement of Gal.2:20 " Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I know only a handful of pastors who would say they have high job satisfaction, and countless others who would say the opposite. I am highly suspect of the Chicago statistics, if only anecdotally. I'd want to know things like the variables they controlled for, the randomness of their sampling, the types of questions they asked, etc.

I'm not so sure that pastors continue to do pastoral ministry because they can't do anything else (though that is certainly true for some). I suspect that many pastors feel that "once this hurdle is overcome, it's got to get better!" So they keep on keeping on, thinking that things will return to "normal"--not realizing that "normal" is conflictual.

After seeing some of the things I've seen (in my own life, and in the lives of so many pastor friends who've been virtually chewed up and spit out), I'm a little tired of hearing about how pastors need to develop better leadership skills, better conflict resolution skills, better self-differentiation, better change-leading skills, better people skills, better counseling skills, better administration skills, etc., etc., etc. At what point (and in what way) do we say to congregations: "YOU are the priesthood of all believers! YOU are called by God to be for one another what you expect pastors to be for you! And if pastors talked to you the way some of you talk to them, you'd run them out of town on a rail!"

Sorry, I'm just finding myself hurting for some very good friends who love God, have loved their congregations beautifully as servant leaders, and I am despairing for how they have been treated.

By focusing on happiness we're missing the point. Happiness is based on what happens and is going to change a lot.

Wednesday, I received a hate-filled anonymous letter full of gossip and lies. Worse, my wife was the one who opened it. I wasn't very happy on Wednesday.

Sunday, the leadership of my congregation pre-empted my sermon time to address the letter. They quoted Scripture after Scripture dealing with back-biting, gossip, slander etc. and assured the congregation that if they knew who had written the letter they would be visiting them. A large number of the congregation responded positively to the message. After that, I was happy.

Happiness comes and goes. But then, happiness isn't the point, is it?

These statistics are full of it. Last year, I heard the statistic about pastoral divorces for the first time by a well-known pastor in the Pacific Northwest. I called him up and challenged him to give me the data on this. He directed me to a popular web site for pastor's wives. I called them and asked for their references on the data. They directed me to the Barna Group. I called them and they directed me to the Pastor in Seattle.

Our guts should tell us this is incorrect. Think of all the pastors you have ever known people. Are half of them divorced (including the ones who left ministry)? Neither are mine, not even close. I would doubt the pastoral divorce rate is anywhere above 10%. Any study that suggests otherwise is derivative and lacks statistical credibility. Out in the field, where you and I live and reporters for the Tribune work, things are better than we are allowing others to report.

My tendency is to think that these negative statistics are somewhat exaggerated. That is not to dismiss these concerns. There are far, far too many ministers who experience some very real negatives as the result of pastoral ministry. These are very real.

I don't know that pastors are overwhelmingly happy in this role. However, that is not to dismiss the fact that many of us are very happy and really enjoy this life.

Interesting -- looking back at Doug's post, I was asking myself the opposite question: whether the happy pastors are in the Charismatic, Pentecostal, and/or Evangelical streams and the unhappy from the mainlines! This is what my own observations would support (not an unbiased sample, of course)...

David,
Pastors are human women, too.

Mike P. stated:

"These statistics are full of it...Our guts should tell us this is incorrect. Think of all the pastors you have ever known people. Are half of them divorced (including the ones who left ministry)? Neither are mine, not even close."

For some time, statistical experts and the general public have believed that the general population experiences 50% divorce rate or worse. This is a major bunch of hooey!

They counted the number of marriages in a given year and divided it by the number of divorces in the same year -- then came up with 50%.

It is statistically wrong! The divorces involved people how had been married for many years -- of varying lengths of time.

A better study would be to follow a set number of marriages over a long period of time and determine the percentages from that.

I wonder of the same is true of the above information. Mike's observation certainly makes sense in my world, as well.

Wow, one thing we can't dispute is that pastors are long-winded!!!
Seriously, though, a life-long battle with depression (that blessed family tradition!) has taught me that: It's when we take the focus off the fact that JESUS is the answer and adopt a ridiculous sense of OUR OWN responsibility for every tiny facet of every single person's well-being that we become burnt out, depressed, poor lovers, cranky parents, and generally "UNHAPPY".
I have learned to love what I do - but it's often a daily battle with the flesh!!

It's sad to hear the negative outcome of the stats but it seems to me that it's also inaccurate as surveys are somewhat exaggerated (my opinion).

If pastors really know the true meaning of a "servant" of the Lord Jesus Christ, and focus on the greatest achievement of life
and the main business of the Savior which is "soul winning", then those negative responses will come down. If pastors will put more attention on the Lord Jesus Christ
as their Master, and not in themselves
then and only then the stats will change to
a favorable one that the Savior can be proud of. The only suggestion I have as a pastor, is to make sure that if a pastor is married, make sure that the spouse is also called to minister or understand and accepted the calling.

After reading all these comments, I wondered if anything could or should be added. I think so.

In seminary I wasn't ever really warned about any of the negatives. I have spent 26 years in ministry, in both mainline and evangelical groups. I have been gloriously ecstatic on some days, profoundly depressed on others. I have been both a well-respected and loved pastor and an unwanted "used pastor" working for minimum wage. As a pastor, my salary has remained flat for most of the last 10 years. I've been up and down, loved, honored, hated and slandered (often by the people I have invested in most). I didn't lose the faith or divorce my wife. I've felt burn-out, but I am still "in the saddle."

What keeps me doing it? 1. A genuine sense of call, which has been tested by others, repeatedly. Call is complex and not experienced the same way by us all. But it must include a sense that we are being pulled into representing the 'Father Heart' of God to others and the belief that we are invited (drafted, perhaps?) into the proclamation of His truth to his people. 2. A belief that I must display to God's people the same kind of faithfulness to them that Jesus would. I have wanted to 'cut and run' a hundred times. The image of God I leave with people when I have escaped, or divorced or whatever--I cannot live with that, and some days that is what keeps me doing it. I don't want to image God falsely to them. 3. Some days it is the sheer joy of being engaged and used in God's work of redemption in another human life--how can that not bring joy and happiness? What greater work is there? 4. Ultimately, I stay through it all because I really believe in the incarnation. God really does use weak, broken vessels--they show his grace. Maybe, I can demonstrate how just one such vessel lives out a life filled with uncertainty (and yet trusting in the face of it), for the sake of others, people God has entrusted to my care.

It is great comfort to read 2 Cor. 6.1-13. Paul pretty much says it all, at least for me.

The Chicago study was researching job happiness in general. Clergy tend to feel like they 'have to act that way' These happy shiny masks drop when they go for help from those who care for clergy.

The NORC statistics don't hold up either to surveys of clergy wives.

Want to know how satisfied someone really is in work and life then ask their doctor and their spouse. The University Chicago would do well to research those who care for clergy that date back to the 1980's. I have asked them and they do not agree with the NORC statistics about clergy.

Furthermore, one of the Duke Pulpit and Pew dissertations found that clergy are not consistent in their answers when being researched. When given the chance to write they are far more negative than when given questions to rank or just say yes and no to.

Also, any job with a satisfaction level of 87% would have long waiting lines seeking to get in. Do we have that? No. Seminary enrollments are declining. Denominations are facing or about to face clergy shortages. Some studies tell us that we are loosing more clergy across North American each month than we are loosing soldiers in Iraq.

I could say more, but then it would be an article not a post.