the comments on this post should be interesting to read...

what i find most revealing is:

"spiritual growth doesn’t happen best by becoming dependent on elaborate church programs but through the age old spiritual practices of prayer, bible reading, and relationships."

notice what he DOESN'T mention: getting the message from educated bibliolaters who have put God in a box through their obsession with doctrines and systematic theologies.

yeah, that was a little strong - as i mentioned to someone else the other day, i tend to poke people in the eye in order to get the ball rolling.

we have completely lost the ministry of the holy spirit to work between a believer and scripture. everything that a believer reads or thinks has to first be filtered through what's orthodox, or what the reformation said, or what the chicago statement of inerrancy argued, yada yada yada.

i cannot stress enough: it's why this stuff worked for thousands of years when it was passed down as stories from family to family, from generation to generation. the emphasis was not on the details, or on the facts, but on letting the story reveal the truth to both the storyteller and the listener.

just like in jesus' use of parables.

the pendulum has swung too far. we are at the point now where we expect God to clear what he's going to do with *us* before he does it so we can make sure its's biblical.

do you see the problem?

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

>Does this mark the end of Willow’s thirty years of influence over the American church?

From your pen to God's ears.

Spiritual disciplines, not mega church result in spiritual growth. On one hand I'm not shocked, on the other, that Willow has made this confession is shocking and shows some real leadership and integrity.

Many of us are likely saying, "Well duh," but we didn't have the research to back up the conviction. All I personally had was anecdotal evidence.

At around the same time my small church grew into a large church, I had taken a spiritual downturn; I was hiding in the crowd and not growing in Christ. I was still participating in church activities, but no one ever asked me about how I was doing with Jesus, and consequently I wasn't doing anything with Him.

Sad to say, I probably could have hidden just as well in a small church -- so many churches are more interested in programs than discipleship. They think that's the best route to becoming a large church. But Jesus called us to disciple, not to create new activities.

Glad to see Willow Creek is moving in the right direction.

Well, duh ...

The key to discipleship, growth, and fellowship is small groups.

But we just seem to be all about those programs and extravaganzas, don't we? Glad to see that North American Christianity is slowly becoming less about the "Jesus Show" and more about becoming truly Christ-like.

http://sbcimpact.net

I read Reveal and I am not sure I make it out to be some repentance or recanting of their ministry but a recalibration of what they thought helped people mature. The title is catchy but probably not that accurate and it sets a tone of negative. The book is also not only about Willow but I believe there were several churches who participated in the collection of information.

My biggest concern in this matter is what we call mature in Christ. If you read carefully the “Mature” level was self ascribed not Willow ascribed. Willow gave the framework but people declared themselves to be or not to be mature. Willows definition was growing in a genuine love for God and for others. I do not think Willows definition was off but people’s ability to assess themselves was a bit scary.

I would be careful about posting too much criticism without reading the book first since the title of this is misleading and some of the information is incomplete and could only lead to criticism of Willow without realizing that immature people are in every church.

Small, large, mega, seeker, traditional, emergent, modern, ethnic, multi cultural… all these churches are filled with immature people who do not connect, grow or serve. They are filled with people who hear daily what God asked but make excuses for not obeying.

I do applaud Willow for having the guts to tackle this, to be revealing about their own shortcomings and readjust. I will not only learn from their practices but also their heart.

I think it takes a great leader to take a hard look at himself, and honestly disclose their errors. I have not been a proponent of the "Seeker Driven Church," but this goes to show that men like this have humbly kept their mission and their agenda's next to the heart of God. We should all learn from this! Are any of these guys running for office?? :)

Willow is in the process of basically changing everything. It will be interesting to see what that looks like a year from now, or 3 years from now. It will also be interesting to see how their people respond to this. Generally, they have responded well to change, but people are always resistant to having their favorite program shelved, even if it isn't helping them grow spiritually.

Whatever happens, I'm appreciative of Hybels and Willow Creek being open, honest, and up front about their findings and their problems. That was a big crow pie Hybels had to eat, but he has shown his leadership and is leaning into the problem, not running away. Like him or not, that is worth respecting.

Big Chris
http://mrclm.blogspot.com

Mike, you don't like conservatism, do you? I guess you've forgotten that the Holy Spirit works in us through the Scriptures. Therefore, we must not put God in the fog of fuzzy epistemologies and let God put Himself into His own categories and into His own descriptions. This drives us deep into Biblical scholarship, and, yes, into clarifying statements about what we have learned in order to guard the truth entrusted to our care. In fact, this is the heart and soul of this newfound discovery at Willow Creek. Our experiences in ministry only go to verify what we find in Scripture, not vice versa.

Mike, Check out Matthew 13:13-30 and listen to Jesus say whay He used parables. It was not so that the narratives could be passed down through the generations through families. Besides, if this was the case, we wouldn't need the Scriptures and all of the details and facts it contains, and if details and facts aren't important then why did Jesus say not the smallest stroke or letter will be done away with until all is fulfilled?

May the Lord continue to open the eyes of the modern evangelical church to His Truth and how it is to be conveyed to His people and to a lost and dying world.

Maybe this is the first sign of true humility.

I’m disappointed in the inflammatory way that “out of ur” is explaining this. I’ve read “Reveal”, I was at the Leadership Summit where they spoke about it and I have the initial defining moments CD where they started talking about this. Your description of their philosophy of ministry is offensive and inaccurate. There was never a “if you program them, they will grow” mentality at WC. There was a “do whatever it takes to reach lost people” mentality. Then, as part of their discipleship program, they decided to use classes that emphasized the same things most churches emphasize: spiritual gifts and ministry, discipleship through the spiritual disciplines, fellowship through groups for growth, etc. The problem they have is that people got the message that if they were to grow, it was the church’s responsibility. That’s the key insight of the Reveal book.

Too many Christians think that their growth is dependent upon the church rather than recognizing that it’s the church’s job to equip them for maturity so that they transition from dependence on the church to investing in the church or from consumer to key contributor. As Jesus modeled, the ultimate mark of a follower of Jesus is unquenchable servanthood not an endless accumulation of facts.

Here’s a quote from someone who actually read the book:

Key lesson #6: More than 25% of those surveyed described themselves as spiritually “stalled” or “dissatisfied” with the role of the church in their spiritual growth. The more engaged a person is, usually the more loyal they become. Not so in this case. The higher the level of commitment to Christ – the more likely it is that satisfaction with the church will be lukewarm. At the heart of their unhappiness may be the fact that neither segment seems to realize that much of the responsibility for their spiritual growth belongs to them! This is the big “aha”. And it begs the question: Who should have pointed this out to them? Who should have helped them to begin taking more responsibility for their own spiritual growth?

Did you notice the big Aha? It’s unfortunate that instead of emphasizing this critical discovery, "ur" chose to put their own spin on it and take a cheap shot at Willow. Pity.

This is what’s crippling Chrsitianity in America today. We have a whole generation of Christians who are like little immature baby birds looking for the next teacher to come along and “feed” them rather than taking responsibility for their own growth. Hebrews 5:12-14 is still true today. Instead of “training themselves”, they continue to suckle.

The church in America must put the emphasis on helping people transition from dependence on a teacher and into a life where they are able to connect & grow in their relationship with Jesus every day of the week and not just when someone feeds them on Sunday.

OK, call me dense. But I thought the most common church program around was a small group ministry, and those are all about "prayer, bible reading, and relationships." Of course, different groups may have different proportions of those three elements but that's pretty much the agenda.

So I'm a little perplexed when people are contrasting "prayer, Bible reading, and relationships" with church programs.

Wow, that could not have been an easy confession. I am glad Bill did though. When we are broken and on our knees is when God can REALLY make things happen.

I suspect that Willow Creek just like any other mega church thrives on the statistics of how many were saved in the last service and how many came to the latest performance. I like what David Fitch has to say in opening his bood The Great Giveaway. He feels we should count baptisms, and only after they have gone through confirmation/discipleship classes. This will give a better accounting for how many people were saved and went through the process. This is a better count of who is not falling away or having "false conversions".

That honesty is what makes Willow Creek great. They are willing to make adjustments when they know they have erred. This honesty will make them even more influential as they create new ways of delivering the gospel that transforms people's lives.

I ministered in the shadown of Willow Creek. I learned much from them, good and bad. I prayed for Bill Hybels regularly. Anyone who has been given a platform like he has needs a tremendous amount of prayer support.

I'll watch Willow and continue to learn from them, good and bad, but I hope mostly good.

It simply isn't enough to swing the pendulum to private spiritual disciplines. An authentic Christian community is not merely a collection of individuals, but an interdependent people wholly dependent upon the Spirit of God in following Jesus and making disciples.

Are people supposed to simply 'feed themselves'? Is that the picture of the church we would want to embody--a hub of resources to feed the private life of Christians?

Praise the Lord!

I'm incredibly grateful that the leadership is looking at their methods and saying, "Wait, somethings not right here." May the Lord lead them to a truly biblical, gospel-driven methodology!

I'm thankful for what Willow Creek has done over the years, even though now they see that maybe it wasn't the best. God still used what they did in tremendous ways. What they're going through now is what any person or organization goes through -- live and learn, grow and mature. And I think it shows a lot of character to admit what they have so publicly and also shows a concern for all the other churches and invididuals they've influenced over the years.

And good for the saints who've disagreed with their methods and done what they feel God has led them to do.

I consider both to be doing their best to follow what God has laid out in his Word.

Go God!

I too thank the leadership of Willow Creek for their desire to be self-effacing by sharing their findings. What troubles me a bit is that it took qualititave research, which is a tool to measure non-spiritual endeovers, to finally validate what many have been sensing in their midsts through the conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit. As the article states so well, engaging in more and more "programs" as a mechanism for practicing Christianity so one can therefore grow spiritually has not worked because all that serves to do is compartmentalize their Christianity from instead of integrating it to their everyday lives. Intuitively, and as a matter of biblical principle, spiritual growth occurs when believers learn to apply the foundational truths of santification within the context of their daily lives as their circumstances and seasons of life require. Which, can only be learned through the biblically prescribed method of steadfast prayer, the committed, disciplined studying of God's word and organic, that is say unscripted, fellowship with other believers.

This programatically-driven church movement was doomed to fail in it's proported goal of helping people grow spiritually from the start because it chose as its main barometer a "customer-centric" business motif of placing the onus on the institution of the church (business), for suppying the spiritual growth (product) to the believer (consumer) according to his demands. When the scriptures are clear that spiritual growth is a challange (which implies the effort to conform) and the responsibility of the individual believer according to God's will and purposes.

This humble admission is truly breathtaking and perhaps can set the pace for an even greater influence in the future for Willow Creek. Thank God for them and their leader!

What makes people become spiritually mature is the gospel of God's saving reign revealed in Jesus Christ crucified and risen. It's really all about the kingdom and the KIng and his means of bringing the kingdom (cross and resurrection).

Spiritual disciplines are great. But only if they are keeping people in relationship with Jesus and feeding on the gospel. Otherwise, we're just producing disciplined, but self-righteous, people.

Certainly we're all guilty of missing the point of our Christian calling and delivery of the gospel. What is most telling for any of us are the answer to the following questions that Pastor Hybels has on his door:

What is our business? Who is our customer? What does the customer consider value?

I believe that if we have answered the second question, "who is our customer" with "the people" then we have put the cart before horse. Our "customer" is God, though it is admittedly, odd to term it that way.

Putting "services for the people" before service to God is, at worst, not the gospel and at best, not a cause for people to mature in Christ. Indeed, it will provide opportunity for people to utilize American consumerism into the Church. Their first question will become "What can Christ do for me?" instead of "What can I do for Christ?" That is a self-destructive way to call on the mercy of God.

I also believe that any focus of our churches that is on serving people prior to the mention of serving God will, at some point, become self-glorifying and not God-glorifying. I like what Christ said: "I have come to do the will of the Father." He did not expand on the small groups that would be forming or if there would be childcare at the sermon on the mount. Out of "I have come to do the will of the Father" is what flowed all that he did.

It's a major distinction to say that my customer is first God - and he wants me to glorify him by offering everything for his service.

I also think it's great that God lets us go down certain roads only to see why we cannot trust in our own understanding. From Pastor Hybels' response to the study it is clear that he is a man of God and desires that people would become spiritually mature. I'm certain that God is not done with Pastor Hybels! I can feel my faith in God growing deeper seeing this from the outside looking in.

The end. :)

http://www.liveintheword.org

though I am glad to hear that Willow Creek's leadership is admitting that they have made mistakes (which led many American churches astray as well), I am conscerned for how they are going to look to the future. What got them here in the first place, as revealed in the article above, is having an outlook on ministry that was centered on what people wanted from church, not what God ordained the Church to be. God called pastors and teachers to train the church for ministry and to follow the teachings of Christ. They do this through God's decree of preaching the Word by rightly dividing the Word (exigetical preaching). The Bible matters, theology matters, the sacraments matter, prayer matters, because God has decreed it and He hasn't changed how He wants Church done; we have. Church exists to train the elect in God's Truth, save the lost, and most of all, to glorify God in Christ through the Holy Spirit; everything we do should come from the demands of God's Word first, not the requests of people who have been marked for their entire existence on Earth by hating God and creating their own religions.

Hopefully Willow Creek will turn to God's Word for what He has decreed to work, instead of to trends and people to find the next phase in "doing church" that will destroy disciplehsip again.

Duh! Gods word does not teach programs, it teaches the disciplines. Maybe the SBC should take a close look at what Hybels is saying.
Thank God Dr. Hybels has seen what Gods word says. Whith Willow's far reaching ministry may God continue to bless their efforts!

Is Willow repenting or is Willow simply applying pragmatism in another form?

My question is, how do you turn around a monster like Willow Creek? I hate to play devil's advocate here, but if they truly act on their revelation, it will take a true miracle to prevent a massive train wreck. In the end it might even be a good train wreck, but a train wreck nonetheless.

We'll have to be praying for the folks there.

"Replace it [the way we do church] with new insights. Insights that are informed by research and rooted in Scripture."

A great post and many excellent comments. One has to wonder though, why has it taken 30 years to figure out that Willow Creek's membership is spiritually immature? If one's child is physically stunted in growth wouldn't an observant parent (as well as others) find it patently obvious? If the way they had done church was 'rooted in Scripture' from the beginning, maybe 30 years worth of spiritually mature Christians would have already changed the world.

SELF FEEDERS?
...no you've STILL missed the point.
Go and embrace John MacArthur's ministry as your own and do exactly what he says.
Look to men like Alistair Begg and John Piper. Men like Brannon Howse and Ray Comfort.
More "research" isn't the key but Biblical surrender
What Did Jesus Do?
http://LivingWaters.com/wdjd.shtml
There is only one Great Commission, go and do that with the Biblical Gospel. Stop trying to feed your self and go and seek the lost, feeding the widows and taking care of the orphans ALONG THE WAY to doing your commission.
That is the emphasis of Christ and that is the emphasis every Believer MUST submit to and do, every day.
You can do that!
Seek the lost while you still can.

It is obvious by some comments here that some of you did not read the book. The title and the tone of the report is almost as if Out of Ur editors did not read the book either.

Willow Creek is not what is wrong with the American Church. They did not pollute and lead astray thousands of churches either. They simply did an assessment to discern what was helping and what was no longer helping people mature. There was nothing un-biblical about what they did. There is no evidence that Expository messages make better Christians.

Out of Ur, I am deeply frustrated by the way you set this up and your reporting on this is divisive. There are some fascinating truths in the Reveal book that will be missed because it seemed more catchy to say Willow repents than look what Willow is discovering.

Take some responsibility and fix this, you are not above the accountability to God and Christian leaders in this matter.

The "self-feeder" reference has nothing to do with feeding individualism and everything to do with 2 Timothy 2:2.

Too often, some believers don't crack their Bibles open until their pastors and leaders do during a worship service. That's a BIG problem.

I should know how to study the Word and feast on it Monday through Saturday without having a leader tell me to do so.

Jason (above) -
Great comments. I'm thankful for the WC admission. However, taking full responsibility for this little 30 year "experiment" will require more than simply saying, "Oh well...this is a good wake up call...let's take out a new sheet of paper and begin crafting the next experiment, only now with more scripture."

What they should do is completely scrap their "insights" altogether, and return exclusively to the cross of Christ, trembling at His word in the formulation of their philosophy of ministry! Faithful ministries have been telling WC for years (privately and publicly) that their approach is thoroughly unbiblical, to no avail. All such criticisms were drowned out by the large numbers and mass appeal.

Perhaps this recent admission should include a genuine acknowledgment that their most glaring problem wasn't "ignorance" but stubbornness against those who knew how to understand scripture more clearly, and tried to tell them.

Why is this important?

Because, as 2Cor 7:11 indicates, true repentance involves restitution and the vindication of God's word and character. I'd say that 30 years of not really considering a more biblical approach calls for such radical change that we would have no doubt that they now believe their foundation rested on man's wisdom and not God's.

The problem is that these "seeker" churches are feeding the people spiritual candy--not even milk. It's stuff designed to make you FEEL spiritual, to make you FEEL uplifted. What's not there is the spiritual milk in which we learn that our growth is NOT our own work but that of the Holy Spirit working through the Word and the Sacraments, and the spiritual meat of His Body and Blood given by Him as a means by which the Holy Spirit works within us.

The absence of a serious sacramental theology means that the people, even if they do receive the Communion, do not know what they are receiving. The perils of that are clear in 1 Cor. 11:29. Of course they become spiritually dissatisfied. Spiritual candy--big showbiz type services that are more rock concert or pep rally than divine service of Word and Sacrament--cannot feed the flock.

The posts that suggest that the flock is to be left to feed itself are also far off the mark. The people are to hear the Word preached by His appointed messengers, called and ordained ministers of the Word. "How shall they believe if they have not heard?"

I can't help but wonder how many more mega-failures will be required before we North American churchmen will realize that "success," as we define it, does not, necessarily, model "spiritual effectiveness" nor does it merit imulation. We (the North American church) have the most refined "church operations" in the world while we represent the only part of the world in which the church is not growing.

The work of the church, as we all know, is "spiritual." It seems ludicrous to me, to think that secular business models might somehow produce Biblical/spiritual results. Yet, all of us in pastoral leadership feel the pressure to try, so-called, "cutting-edge," innovative methods that others have used to achieve "success." Implied, is the idea that Biblical methods are outdated and certainly not "21st Century," post-modern tools. The business model is, of necessity, customer-sensitive while the gospel is confrontational to the unregenerate approach to life.

It seems to me that the spiritual health of the local church must be key to producing converts and reproducing true "disciples" of Jesus. God grant us examples of church "health" rather than mere church growth.

Best response: Duh!

Best Irony: Hawkings worries about being a good steward of the money the church receives, and it took him three whole years to come up with ...this? (the book repeatedly touts "the result of 3 years of research...")

Best Marketing Strategy (or how to create something out of nothing): create a rob bell rip-off video, and a website and a book and a conference, use graphs and powerpoint to dress up the "research" , then infuse it with donald trump tactics and hype using words like "ground breaking" and "rock your world".

Best Wake Up: Isn't "self-feeding" just another way of saying people learn best by doing rather than listening to some lame lecture? Wasn't this "revealed" in the 70's?
Exactly how far behind is Willow anyways?

Best Irony Runner Up: With concerns about programs and pouring money into spectacles, their upcoming Christmas show with aerialists, circus acts, and artistically-bankrupt-copycatting-of-worn-out-Andy Williams-like-TV-xmas specials are still needed to reach the lost, i suppose... but i'm gonna need another 3 years before I reveal the research on that.

Best Foreshadowing: a video of a lonely white guy sitting in an empty 5000 seat auditorium talking to a camera.

Imagine this on a billboard, like the ones we've all seen in other places, sitting above the parking lot at Willow Creek.

"Hate to be an I told you so but..."

GOD

Patrick Burwell hit the nail on the head.

I was joking with my pastor the other day. We are a small Bible-driven church where the pastor teaches the Word expositorily, line by line. We were talking about the tendency for the American Church to be ever in search of "the next big thing." I told him maybe one of these days, expository teaching and discipleship will BE the next big thing.

But the question is, how does WC measure success and effectiveness and will they give this "new" way of "doing church" 30 years to work?

To Ken Howes:
Maybe they are feeding feel good, but at lest that is better than the "feel bad" tone of your post.

Hmmmmm? I was nurtured in a Catholic Community from day 1. My life's journey led me to marriage and then pastor for over 20 some years as a Methodist mentored and shaped under the methodical disciplines of John Wesley for Spiritual Maturity. I have served 4 churches of all sizes and shapes in everykind of locality. I have attended a number of events at WC and appreciated what they offered. I have been at a number of large church venues that have become the models of so many churches in America. There is no doubt that measuring "spiritual" maturity is a very precarious thing indeed. I imagine that WC is not different than any church I have ever pastored just in scope. Those churches and church members and attenders indeed lose their way when it comes to having one's life caught up in "following" Jesus, that is more than articulating the right "words" and phrases. I grow disenchanted with the whole institution of church because it so easily slides in that direction. The energy and effort I have expended over the years attempting to help four congregations reclaim a discipling mission has almost depleted me. My greatest concern for places like WC and many other congregations that model their style is that the "marketing" of their product is akin to what I think Jesus was enraged about in his overturning of tables in the temple. It all just becomes a distracation from the main thing. I wonder if the discipleship paradigm just doesn't go with big. Accountability is lost. The necessity of having one person look after another in close communion and community is essential. Essentially challenging, rebuking, encouraging, all those things that Paul speaks to Timothy about. I know, small groups, small groups. Even those groups, though, begin to lose accountability as certain individuals leverage their will and power on others in ways that don't lead to spiritual maturity. It is tough to stay true to the vision and mission of Jesus. I am afraid for WC and those like them. There will be a loud noise of collapse sooner or later on the edges of Chicago. The vision of Christ's Kingdom cannot and maybe will not be maintained by the budgets and dollars of a people who simply show up in droves at WC. WC though 30 years strong is only a blip on the time line of Christ's Church. Let's all remember that.

The Lord Jesus warned His Disciples about the leaven of Pharisees. Over the centuries the Pharisees had come to put their faith in their traditions, not in God. And when the Lord Jesus would not play by their rules (follow their traditions) they got anger with Him.
The Church today faces the same temptation as the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. The Church needs to be careful not to fall into the trap of trusting in our programs to draw and keep large crowds, to disciple Believers, to lead worship, and bring in money. When the Church begins to trust in their programs, the Church will begin to put her programs first and people second. This is the leaven of the Pharisees, they put their trust in their traditions, and put their traditions first and the people second. The Lord Jesus always puts people first, and traditions and programs second.
So weather it is the magachurch or the small rural or community church, their faith must be put in God not their programs. Then the people will come first.
Pastor Keith Bufford
Following Jesus Ministries

Perspective and Context on Willow Creek's Five Realizations.

1. They want to be good stewards.

My comment: Amen. May they continue to wrestle with the problem. When you see Willow Creek's facility, you are either envious or disgusted. It is very good to hear them saying, "We want to welcome people well but we don't want to spend a penny more than we have to. Are we spending God's resources appropriately? Are there other ways that God might be calling the wealthy North American church to use its resources?"

2. Research helps.

My comment: Make sure this research is done well.
I am glad to see Willow evaluate how they are doing beyond the kneejerk way it is often done, i.e. the ABC's (Attendence, Buildings and Cash) or the three B's (Bodies, Buildings and Bucks).

I would simply urge them to continue to get good advice about how to do sociological research well. The devil is in the details. Numbers can be manipulated to say most anything. We, as church leaders, have got to pay more attention to appropriate use of statistics. I am not saying we need to less statistics. Actually, I think we need more but we need to deal with those statistics and studies in a better way. We need people who know statistics and who understand sociological research so that our numbers mean something. We need people who can sort through all of these statistics in such a way that it makes sense and in way that is meaningful for congregations.

3. They are still effective with seekers.

My comment: Willow Creek's gift to the wider church has been its passion to see unchurched people become followers of Jesus. Willow Creek, along with Andy Stanley's North Point Community Church, is still one of the best examples of an effective seeker model. Though there are other ways of doing evangelism by the church and problems with the seeker model replacing worship with evangelism, the seeker model is still one to be reckoned with because most the other ones are so ineffective. (Are lots of adults becoming Christians at the churches you know?)

4. Consumer discipleship is not working.

My comment: Programs have limited usefulness. After working at seeker-driven megachurch, my friend wrote me: "I think discipling people may only be able to be done a few at a time."

Another friend wrote me about his experience working in a megachurch, "The megachurch approach can truly breed an unhealthy consumerism mentality. Specializing in everything to cater to our every need (affinity groups, a cafe in the lobby, Sunday school programs for children that are incredible, etc) isn't always bad, but can foster a 'it's all about me' mentality."

5. Many mature Christians are unsatisfied with the church. Their conclusion is that people need to learn to feed themselves.

My comment: I think probably people want tradition and depth not just a personalized spiritual growth program. Because church tradition is the one thing Willow decided to systematically expunge during its founding, its people miss it.

Andy Rowell
Th.D. Student
Duke Divinity School
Blog: Church Leadership Conversations

"What is our business? Who is our customer? What does the customer consider value?"

These questions are perfectly fine; what's wrong is that they're answered (I presume):

What is our business? getting people to church
Who is our customer? the people
What does the customer consider value? lots of activities

when they should be answered:

What is our business? discipling people in Christ
Who is our customer? God
What does the customer consider value? spiritually mature Christians ("spiritually" implies "socially")

In business, the customer is always right; doesn't it follow that this aspect of business translates to a church with the others? Naming the congregation as the customer sets the people up to be worshiped by the church staff.

Patrick wrote:
"Go and embrace John MacArthur's ministry as your own and do exactly what he says.
Look to men like Alistair Begg and John Piper. Men like Brannon Howse and Ray Comfort. More "research" isn't the key but Biblical surrender
What Did Jesus Do?
There is only one Great Commission, go and do that with the Biblical Gospel."

I think many of us would question your role models Patrick. Personally I think the Evangelical leaders you point to here leave much to be desired when it comes to modeling what Jesus did indeed do. In other words, what Jesus actually proclaimed in word and deed. The hyper-truncated gospel described by people such as McArthur and Piper is really only a reflection of one aspect of the gospel- heavily filtered through a modern lens. You might want to expand your view a little- read some of the church fathers, read some of what’s being talked about in emerging circles, then reflect on the fullness of what the gospel is and what it is exactly that Jesus was all about.

precipicemagazine.com
Darren King

I've not read the book, and it will likely be quite a few months until I do so. However, I do appreciate this quote from the above article,

"We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own."

Though our church is not a pure seeker church, there was a sense developing that the key for people's spiritual growth was to get them to come back more often to Sunday services, or getting them involved in a small group more often. If they came to "us" and heard what "we" had to teach them, they would grow as they go throughout the week. This is true for some, but for most of the people in our church, I think it is important to de-emphasize the importance of coming to a worship service or a small group in order to grow as a Christian. The importance should be placed on them growing as a Christian as they go about their week in their workplace, their home, their classroom, etc. Of course their is an important place for Sunday gatherings and small groups, but they should not replace the kind of spiritual growth that needs to happen as we do life in the ebb and flow of our regular weekdays.

Finally, WC has realised that something's wrong - if you try to sell Jesus as another product in the market place and you orient your programs around non-Christians something's gotta give. The unfortunate thing about WC and Saddleback organisations, (can't call them churches) is that thousands have uncritically bought into their methods and the train wrecks are already there to see. Unregenerate people in the seats who have just added Jesus to their lifestyle and continued living as they have always lived. It is to be fervently hoped that WC does repent for all those in their congregations who think they're Christians and are not, and for all those they've influenced with their market driven heresy. Perhaps they will start again with the words of the Apostle Paul ringing in their ears - "I serve to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified".

Okay, let me get this straight. Willow Creek was founded on the concept of "rediscovering church", right? Now after thirty years they've decided take out a clean sheet of paper and rethink all of their old assumptions. Does that mean they are now re-rediscovering church? I'm just sayin'

I left my church in this area because they patterned themselves after the Willow Creek Church and I could see and discern in the Spirit that it wasn't right. I'm glad to see that the Holy Spirit has spoken and more importantly that someone has listened.
Franklin
Tennessee

There's a much more serious underlying mistake that evangelicals have made over the last 50 years that laid the foundation for Willow Grove. The mistake is the assumption that when we have one or two believers and a bible, we have everything we need. While it is true that each believer has a direct relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and that the bible is the only document inspired by God, it is also true that 2000 years of Christian experience has taught us a few things. For example, early Christians dealt with many serious heresies concerning Jesus Christ’s humanity and divinity that taught them crucial concepts that they preserved in the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds. These concepts were preserved in order for future generations to guard against these heresies and avoid "reinventing the wheel". But popular evangelicalism has largely been ignorant of the lessons of church history, by insisting that all we need is the bible. It would be laughable for a modern inventor to hold a press conference to announce that after completing a multiple year qualitative study, he had just discovered that squares don’t roll and therefore squares will not work as wheels. Willow Grove has just made the spiritual equivalent such an announcement, and it is an embarrassment to Christianity.

ALSO NOTE: I must respectfully disagree with the entire discussion about whether discipleship requires small groups or large groups, although I think those promoting small discipleship have the right mentality and are heading in the right direction. I simply would sharpen the issues even more and bring them more clearly into focus, if I can: I don't think the issue is large churches, medium sized churches, small churches, one-on-one, or small groups. I think the issue is one of CONTENT and PURPOSE. I think it is possible for someone who is passionately in love with God to get up on stage before a mega church and be incapable of containing the intensity of his devotion to God. Someone who has been touched by the fire and power of God (recently, we all grow stale without God's constant presence in our lives), will be incapable of delivering Madison Avenue advertising pablum. No one can be filled with God's fire (recently) and deliver GOD LITE, feel-good spiritual junk food. Such a person would rather preach to a nearly empty auditorium, maybe preaching to the janitor, than to give shallow JESUS LITE sermons to a large crowd. (But he would stand at the exits and beg people to turn to God as they left.)

So, I think we make a mistake by focusing on large versus small, instead of CONTENT.

I think the answer is for the leaders themselves to seek God until they feel God burning in their hearts like a raging fire. And then they will preach Christ.

Let us be even more clear. CHURCHES FOCUSED ON ATTENDANCE ARE PREACHING THEMSELVES, NOT CHRIST. If you are promoting your programs and seeking to boost attendance YOU ARE PREACHING YOURSELF.

"Is Willow repenting or is Willow simply applying pragmatism in another form?"

My thoughts exactly Mike.

Kind of like when McDonalds figured out that everyone else had figured out that their food is bad for you and thus ushered in their "healthy" options...same food, just repackaged.

Ironic is the fact that the only people who find satisfation with WC are mainly unbelievers. It is a harsh condemnation for any church to say that "Christ-centered" people are dissatisfied and thinking about leaving yet the non-Christians love it.

The ministry of the church is equipping the saints. The saints being those who have already encountered the Living God. The church members are the ones who go out and engage the community in proper evangelism. It is not the role of the local church (i.e. Willow Creek or anywhere else) to bring in unbelievers and make them a large part of our congregation. The Church or "ecclesia" are the "called out ones." Meaning those who have been justified by Christ.

But let's hypothetically say I'm wrong, the church should be catering to unbelievers for the sake of the Gospel. I ask you, what will make them repent and believe?

Will they believe if we dim the lights? Will they believe if we make the music more entertaining and enjoyble? What if we focus our messages on something more relevant to the life of unbelievers? I submit to you that the Gospel is never relevant to unbelievers. It's foolishness.

Though we must love them, they hate the Gospel. They are BLIND to the WORD, DEAF to the GOSPEL, and DEVOID of UNDERSTANDING. Paul says that before Christ, "You were DEAD..." (Eph. 2:1). Therefore, there is nothing we can do or say or change in our church that can contribute to the salvation of another. Grace alone from God our Father can open the eyes, unblock the ears, transform the mind, and give eternal life to sinners. Yes, God has ordained preaching to be the means by which one communicates the Gospel. But, it is His Sovereign Hand that saves.

I, personally will commit myself to prayer for the leadership of WC that they might embrace the Word of God. The whole counsel of the Word of God is the most relevant thing in the life of the redeemed. I pray for more "relevant" messages.

Soli Deo Gloria

Darren said:
"You might want to expand your view a little- read some of the church fathers, read some of what’s being talked about in emerging circles, then reflect on the fullness of what the gospel is and what it is exactly that Jesus was all about."

Hey Darren, Why does anyone need to read the church fathers or the emergent church leaders to know about the gospel of Jesus Christ? What about reading the gospel of Jesus Christ directly from the mouth of His apostles -- i.e., from the Bible itself?

Why do McArthur and Piper have a truncated gospel? Is it because they only believe in the Bible?

while i no longer believe in the place, this thread of comments (which, sad to say, i started - sorry) shows that, at least in america, the church is going to h-ll in a handbasket.

you... you... you... brood of vipers...

no wait that's already been taken...

>The mistake is the assumption that when
>we have one or two believers and a bible,
>we have everything we need.

good point. and it's probably a Living Bible, too, or perhaps The Message. stupid christians - imagine, them thinking that they might actually get somewhere without calvin and proper reformed credentials. i bet they can't even spell hermeneutics, and don't even know the eight types of grace God dispenses - or was it nine ladies dancing?...

mike rucker
http://escroll.blogspot.com

Most unbelievers won't even consider looking to Our Lord until they've hit rock bottom somewhere in their life. Others, you can show them that they're sinners in need of forgiveness, then admit it. With the scriptures. But they too have to meet Our Lord with the desire to hear. It's never been easy to witness, so why complicate things with programs and FADS. Just use what Our Lord has given us. And that is: PRAYER, SCRIPTURES, and the HOLY SPIRIT.

I have researched Willow Creek for several years. In reading this blog wanted to check this story out. My first question was.."Who is Greg Hawkins and what is his motive?" Well, for starters...he's selling a product. The product is "reveal": a church assesment package that can truly test your congregations heart using different research techniques. Check out Greg's very interesting blog at:
http://blog.revealnow.com/reveal/2007/10/back-to-the-bas.html In reading completely through the Reveal Website: http://www.revealnow.com/index.asp I'm wondering if WC is just repackaging their product. Only time will "reveal" if this new move is God's way or man's way.

wow, i'm really disappointed in a lot of these comments. why do so many christians tend to sit back safely behind a computer screen and bash other ministries? just live out the gospel in the way that seems most honest to you and let others do the same.

Hi Mike,
From your comments you seem to have an interest in Scripture, but you also say that you no longer believe in Hell. Could you explain that? It seems to be something that Jesus, Paul, and others in the Bible taught and believed.

Nick, you wrote:
"Hey Darren, Why does anyone need to read the church fathers or the emergent church leaders to know about the gospel of Jesus Christ? What about reading the gospel of Jesus Christ directly from the mouth of His apostles -- i.e., from the Bible itself? Why do McArthur and Piper have a truncated gospel? Is it because they only believe in the Bible?"

No, I have no problem with looking to the Bible for the revelation of God. However, the question of how to interpret the Bible is another thing entirely. And I'm saying that Piper and McArthur offer an interpretation that is only a small fraction of the understanding offered by 2000 years of Christian history. Only by reading the Church fathers and such will you realize this.

Secondly, in regards to the truncated gospel, Jesus' primary message was not: "believe in the correct, abstract set of doctrines and you get to go to Heaven when you die for a wonderful disembodied eternity", it was "the Kingdom of God is in your midst".

In other words, Heaven and the afterlife was only a small portion of what Jesus actually talked about and called "the good news" i.e. the gospel.

Much has been discussed about wc. I'm a member of a church that follows after wc philosphy. My concern is that when we do missions in third world countries we hold to the same type of church government here in the states.

We instruct our mission churches, just as wc does, to model the same pattern of church government.

Hybels says we're suppose to be "self feeders". If I grow deeply in my walk with Christ through the week, what does my church look like when I return on the weekend. I'm told to feed myself and grow but will my mega church change and do the same thing. My church has more "stuff" built around the seeker than the believer. I thought church was about helping belivers to grow stronger in their faith.

The comments are more interesting than the Willow Creek boys mea culpa. The problem isn't programmatic churches. Your church may not program like Willow Creek, but your discipleship methodologies function in the same way of making a promise of growth as a function of the church. "Follow our biblically prescribed methodology of discipleship, and you too can be a spiritual giant." I see no difference at all in these programs. They are both predicated on control and pastoral expertise. They both make the claim that the church as an institution is where you need to be to survive as a Christian.

Here's the reality. You can't run a church without programs. If you are not running programs, then you are not organizing to meet the needs of your members. So, let's just move beyond the question of program-centric. We all are program-centric. The problem is that we promise more than we can deliver, and then blame the customer when the results don't match the offer. In order to reassure people of our credibility, we make guarantees about discipleship methodologies that are absolute and impervious. What we need is a bit more humility. It is okay to say, "I don't know." Or, "I was wrong." Or, "I need to change."

It seems that Willow Creek has begun to be more self-reflective. Time will tell whether this newfound perspective will find its way into the next generation of programs that they will develop.

Stephen, those were my thoughts exactly. Why must we all bash WC? Yeah, maybe we didn't agree with their philosophies of ministry. Maybe we could have seen this coming.

At the same time, no church in America has done more to reach out to unbelievers with the message of Christ. The very people WC influenced is the same group that 95% of "evangelical" churches are afraid to talk to or do anything with because we may be confused with the "sinners."

We all do some things right and some things wrong. Let's learn from each other and help each other to grow and to establish balanced ministries.

I recall our church becoming a part of your association and advised my leaders to get away from you guys and your philosophy. No offense, it wasn't because of any reason other than what you've stated in your article.
Church is not a business, it is a family. Church has no customers, there are only brothers and sisters. We have NOTHING TO SELL anyone so their values are not the object of our sales skills but the object of a call to change. But here's the problem Willow Creek. The other way doesn't sell well. We have since started a church to get out and far away from Mega-church and we asked God to take us from a mile wide and an inch deep to make us a mile deep. He is doing that very thing but we're also an inch wide now. It's not popular and doesn't sell. We don't mind since we have nothing to sell. But we had nothing to lose so it was easy. I can't imagine being "Willow Creek" and willing to be pruned to that degree. I really hope that your admission leads to actual repentance and not just repackaging the same ole same ole. It will cost you. Doesn't following Christ always cost you?

Speaking of Willow Creek, Zach said,

"At the same time, no church in America has done more to reach out to unbelievers with the message of Christ."

No, that's not true. If it were, we should all rejoice. The truth is that no church in America has done more to reach out to unbelievers with the message of MAN. Big difference.
The message of man speaks to OUR happiness and OUR self-esteem, the true message of Christ speaks of our need of HIS righteousness and HIS glory.
The true message of Christ has been preached from Jesus to, oh, let's say, Spurgeon, and the philosophy of man has been preached for about the last hundred years, leading people who imbrace it's message to health, happiness, and hell.

Well, duh.

Willow Creek has (after how many years?) just recognized the blindingly obvious. It took them how many years before they did a survey to find out if, um, people in their church were actually, you know, growing spiritually?

Makes you kind of wonder how much faith to put in their next best thing, doesn't it? I mean, spiritual growth is kind of the point of church, isn't it?

Am I WC bashing? Perhaps. But then again, maybe this level of utter cluelessness deserves a little bashing.

Directly or indirectly, this philosophy of ministry ... has impacted every evangelical church in the country.

On behalf of "every evangelical church in the country", let me say thanks a pantload for the vote of confidence.

After reading the article and watching the videos I have come to the conclusion that what Willow Creek wants is "self feeding" Christians.

Interesting, the Church is supposed to Shepherd it's flock, but what Willow Creek wants "self feeding sheep." There ain't no such critter. It is always the responsibility of the Shepherd to feed, nurture, and protect his sheep. You don't just feed and protect the baby sheep, or the young sheep, but ALL the sheep ALL the time.

Just like the Christians starving to death at Willow Creek, it is the responsibility of the Shepherd for their care but the Shepherd wants to throw His responsibility back onto the flook. What a great model of a Shepher this makes, maybe they need to follow the example of Jesus more than a business model.

Perhaps when G.A. Pritchard's doctoral thesis (and resulting paperback easy-read) about the Willow Creek model came out in 1995, a few more people should have paid attention? Too bad the Willow Creek leadership response back in 1995-6 was to attack the messenger, his methods, and his motive, and to say (as some have again said in this thread) "Why question us...it's working!"

Whether one agreed or disagreed with G.A Pritchard, even a casual and dispassionate reader could see that he took a very scholarly, long term, thoroughly researched and participatory approach to understanding the Willow Creek model.
He didn't go in with guns blazing. He didn't find "all bad". He actually performed real research. He spent, as I recall, more than a year in the life of the church on a weekly basis, with scholarly intent. He personally interviewed almost a thousand Willow Creek congregants and many of the then present as well as several former staff. He did his historic and biographical homework. He applied appropriate Biblical, doctoral and scholarly methodologies.
After 18 months of research, his conclusion? The Willow Creek model was flawed, when the issue was spiritual discipline, development, and Christian maturity!

Well, we can all be encouraged at WC's new openness to examination. Too bad 12 years have passed since the ceremonial tar-and-feathering of Pritchard's thesis.

Now, given these recent so-called revelations, Pritchard's book is even more eye opening than it was 12 years ago.

Not to sound too dischordant, but perhaps Willow Creek leadership could have saved the money spent on this latest research, purchased and studied a copy of Pritchard's doctoral thesis?

In Christian charity, I'm going to believe that after this latest revelation, somewhere in some office(s) of WC, some very unofficial calls were made to G.A. Pritchard saying something like "uh, can we talk?"

:-)
CBG

How about showing some GRACE & MERCY.
I applaud Willow Creek for admitting wrong and repenting and returning to God's way of discipleship from the WORD. (Matt. 28:19-20; Ephs.4:11-16; 1 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Peter 3:18) Let's all take time daily to examine our hearts to make sure we are obeying God in every area of our lives and in the areas we are not to repent and return to obeying God. Revival is what we need today. (Rev.2:4,5)

I have been troubled by this whole set of posts as well as the original remarks posted on October 18. I watched both videos—the one by Greg Hawkins and the one by Bill Hybels. Something seems very out of whack to me.

From what I can understand, Bill Hybels never set out to build a church of mature believers. He, and those who responded to his vision, set out to provide a place for people to come comfortably when they wanted to know something about God but did not want the “normal” church experience. They set out to eliminate “churchy” barriers to attendance. The very system they created is also set up to keep people immature. It’s a consumer-driven, personality centered religious performance that leads to spectator Christianity.

Transformational Christianity has always been so much more. It’s the living out of our faith in a community that actively seeks to engage a world needing to see and experience the life of grace. It’s not programs, or moving up some programmatic chart to maturity. I get the impression that the leadership of is going to use the same programmatic, pigeon-holing methodology to try to ensure spiritual growth. That is doomed to failure.

The best sign of growth is that people are leaving the Willow Creek communities and seeking transformation in other types of Christian settings. Why not celebrate what they have done so exceptionally well and then encourage people to leave to further their growth? It’s almost as though they are sorry to see people mature rather than recognizing that the best thing adolescents (i.e., immature believers) do is leave home and try new adventures, gain new ways of thinking. Like many others, I don’t understand why the revelation of the discontent of the growing Christian is such a shock. It sounds like a reason to rejoice.

I think they are still making the mistake. Where did they get there info...surveys. The answer is not sociology or anthropology,it is theology. Many of the folks that leave mega-churches of the SaddleBack or WC type do so because they have been self feeders and have come to believe there churches do it wrong. Driven by what people outside the church think instead of The Bible. At a church in SC (Reformed Baptist, Biblical Counseling, Expository Preaching) we had a term for many of our visitors...they passed throught __wood Church. It is scary to me that they are really looking in to the same well for their answers.
Grace Alone,
Greg

I think this text is rather fitting: "Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:14, NKJV. In ministry it is our fundamental responsibility to connect our people to this Living Water. It can never be distilled into mechanical formulas because it is a living relationship. It is more than following a rote practice--it is venturing out into uncharted waters on a grand experiment of faith.

It is neither entertainment nor expository preaching that yield this result. You are probably aware of folks in both settings who are non-growing Christians. It is not enough to be entertained, neither is it enough to be doctrinally sound. Rather, men and women are taught how to connect to Christ by being instructed via example and instruction how to surrender to Him.

The issue is not how little or much one knows, but how they embrace--or fail to embrace--what they know. To everyone who embraces in faith ALL that they know to be true from Scripture more light will be given--and truly in them the Living Water will spring forth. They will not be 'self-fed' but Christ fed.

We can only take folks so far in their spiritual journey--God must, through His Word and Spirit, ultimately lead them on. The only ones He can lead are those surrendered(obedient) to what they know of His revealed will. To this end we can be a catalyst, but we can never be the means.

Lessons learned (perhaps:
1. Scrutinize your Theology.
2. Be honest in your Motivation.
3. Ensure personal Accountability.
4. Use a Biblical Definition of Success.
5. Don't wait 30 years to see if it's 'working'.

God used Hybels and Willow to inspire me and my mates to plant a church to reach unchurched young adults in Brisbane, Australia.

We are very flawed, but God continues to use us to reach people far from God and lead people to surrender thier lives to Jesus.

We just started a second church and are about to start a third in a few months.

I praise God for using Hybels, Willow and a bunch of other flawed people. I especially thank God that they are humble and don't spend their time bashing up other ministries.

Wow! This brought tears to my eyes. After watching church after church trying to mold themselves into the image of Willow Creek and burn godly people out, this is just fantastic. I never had a problem with Bill Hybels. I think he is truly a man of God and his being willing to say they were wrong testifies to that. Shame on the rest of us for relying on our talents and skills and programs rather than the Holy Spirit and prayer to do His work in His church.

I don't believe a word of it. This is just another marketing ploy to re-energize the Willow Creek machine. When the product's sales slips, you simply repackage it as "new and improved."

I'll believe it when these "leaders" repent and quit. If they really believe they have misled the church for thirty years, the only honorable response would be unconditional resignation from any present or future "leadership" positions. If any school board admitted to making such "mistakes" for thirty years, they would be voted out and replaced immediately. But this is not merely a school system and children's education in view--this is the church, with eternal souls at stake.

The best part of this entire article: "we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders'."

It's time to come out people. Structured church as we know it is death - stand up, stand out and become one of the "called out ones".

FINALLY!!! Repentance in the church...what a novel idea. I've been asking when this was going to happen and it has. God has said, "ENOUGH of this mess" and someone was listening. I pray this act of repentance will ignite a spark of revival in our land and resurrect the church in America.

I agree with Justin Bruce above, Oct 19.

I can't believe I just read this entire blog. It proves that the people who do blogs don't do ministry. These entries are filled with Misquotes, misinterpreations and misrepresentations of the character of Jesus.

If you don't like how someone does ministry how about doing some ministry for a change instead of philosophizing.

Who have you led to Christ recently? How many friends do you have who go to hell if hit by a bus? Who was the last person you met outside of a religious environment, brought them to Christ and then sat with them discussing how to read a Bible digest its truth?

Shame on me for wasting time on this when the true Kingdom awaits.

Way to go Willow!! A church that strives to stay alive, vibrant and relevant must have the insight and guts to make mid-course corrections. This is what makes Willow what it is, and was for decades. They always surprises you by NOT slipping into the comfort zone and conforming to shallow programs. To think programs is what Willow is about, is to seriously not knowing much about them... It's easy to change course for a one-man-band. To turn an oil-tanker like Willow takes a tremendous amount of wisdom, guts, leadership and vision. Again Willow decided not merely to ride out the wave and go lie down on the beach, but they are courageously swimming back into the current and deep water to catch an even bigger wave - for the sake of the mission of the local church world wide. That is why the church in the world needs churches like Willow and leaders like Hawkins and Hybels. They will be leading the way for decades to come. With the REVEAL initiative they are simply writing the next chapter in practice, that thousands of leaders will read and learn from in future. We salute your vision and courage, Willow.

My personal reaction, as a pastor, is:

1st. The final responsibility in God's eyes for an adult's conversion and following maturity process rests 100% on the individual himself. No pastor, no program, and no jazzy set of systems can force someone to grow. It is commonplace in many churches for selfish, lazy people to blame the pastor for their own laziness, lust, greed, and social dysfunctionality, and the suffering that results from those sins.

2nd. A church can be excessively driven by evangelism, just as a church can be excessively driven by discipleship. A church that is excessively driven by evangelism is very likely to leave its people in a babyish, stunted condition. This well-known problem has existed for generations among evangelism-lopsided churches, long before WC came along. All WC did was take an age-old problem among the Southern Baptists and gloss it with mochachino lattes and Peter Drucker seminars.

3nd. Pragmatism, uncoupled from Biblical/theological anchors, will drive the ship of the Church into what the old-timers correctly called worldliness. Winning people to Christ never excuses being in bondage to the spirit of the age, whatever that age may be. The earlier poster was right: the church isn't a business, we're working with sinners not customers, and the Bible orders us how to do things, not just what to do.

Man, so many of you seem happy that Bill Hybels and Willow Creek have stumbled. The fact is that WC brings people to church who wouldn't be there if it didn't exist. Getting people through the doors is the hard part (answering the questions "is there a God?" "why are you right and all the other religions wrong?" "why do I need to give you my money?" "why should I believe the content of the Bible?" All of these questions need to be answered as a first step; teaching them how to feed themselves and feed others comes next. It seems to me WC is discovering "programs" is not the way to teach this. But it does seem to me that there are enough people at WC willing to feed others with the amount of volunteers that step forward to work in their programs. WC seems to have found the right recipe to get people excited about God and only needs a tune-up, while churches that throw the bible at you when you walk in the door will never keep a seeker coming back without hammering them into guilt driven attendance; those churches need to get a complete overhaul.

I am glad that Willow Creek is willing to admit their need for a change. What I would really like to hear, however, is an apology. When our church elders toured and studied Willow Creek, they decided to adopt that model. It led to a church split, precisely because so many felt they were choosing the path of shallow discipleship. I cannot recount in this space the grief suffered by dozens of families as they were forced to choose between their beloved church family and in-depth spirituality. However, the "success" of Willow Creek and other mega churches just couldn't be denied. Reaching the lost is our Lord's command, but loss of spiritual integrity is a steep price to pay for it.

I hesitate to enter this discussion because it seems to be so densely populated with "I told you so" reactions.

It seems that so many have been waiting for Willow Creek to "get their comeuppance." Perhaps they feel that, like a "mega-church Britney Spears" Williow was all fluff and compromise, is all washed up and was doomed to fail from the start.

Those feelings sound like jelousy to me. Humans have such a hard time dealing with the emotions that struggle in our hearts when someone seems to have success at what we've been striving for... success that may have eluded us.

I think what we're seeing now from Bill Hybels and Co. is an extension of the honest application of one of their core values... Evaluation.

They have always tried to suggest honest evaluation, as opposed to doing what has "always worked," as a litmus test for ministry. I've heard Willow talking about spiritual formation for years... and some of their most visible leaders (ie. John Ortberg) have written extensively on the subject. They're just taking it us a notch.

Willow has always been honest in telling outsiders what was "working" and what wasn't, what they we're learning and where they had made mistakes.

The Willow juggernaut may have had good and bad repercussions. Speaking from my own ministry journey, Willow has helped me realize that ministry is messy... it's can't be done using easy formulas... or corporate mandates, and it's as unique as each of us.

People have found "easy answers" for church growth at Willow, but that wasn't what Willow set out to give. They set out to share what they were learning and encourage others with the hope that accepting the great comission, with all your heart soul and mind, didn't mean you were crazy.

I see this new "Reveal" as just an outgrowth of their desire to follow God, with passion and excellence, wherever He's leading. I'm struggling with my own "mega-church" relationship. Not because the church is not working, but because God is working on my heart to plant another community that can multiply the effect of spiritual growth. We deepen faith by allowing more people to answer the call to church leadership, insteand of just adding to the population at a corporate church. There is room for all, the large and the small, and a need for both!

Off topic- It saddens me to see what appears almost to be joy in many of the postings."I was right and you were wrong hahahah". Usually followed by a either a very vague - "just follow the bible" or a some what arrogant "but I have the right way". Mercy, love and kindness seem to be often missing.

On topic- I think Nathan hit the nail on the head. In the great commission, Jesus commanded "make disciples, teaching them to obey" so obedience should be paramount.

He did not, however, instruct us on how we should go about teaching them to obey. He left that up to us. Paul seems to go about it differently than Phillip etc. It is about leading people to HIM.

While I have no affiliation with WC, nor do I have an ax to grind, it seems that they have done somethngs right and somethings in ways that need to be changed and improved. How many churches does that not describe?

Thank you so much Willow for your honesty. It means (with respect!) that we all look directly to the Lord rather than following another.

I may be a bit late for this conversation, but here i go anyways.

my thanx to the "out of ur" folks for getting us talking. apparently this particular article tapped a bit of a nerve. I think more embarassing than WC's confession is the mud-slinging i have read in this column of "Christian rant". some of you ought to be embarassed at the level of self-righteousness and condescension you have for one-another. apparently love for one's brother only applies when we agree with them methodologically, theologically, or otherwise. thankfully this blog isn't posted on our church corner signage so that everyone has to see our dirty laundry.

at very least i was refreshed by wc's comment because i am beginning to ask the same question in my church. why does it seem that what i am doing doesn't seem to be working...as in why are my students (i've been a youth guy for the last 13 years) not maturing as believers the way i wish they would. is it just the times, or am i to blame? maybe if i just prayed more, or read better books, or went to the right conference, or had some famous seminarian come and expound the word of God that they would be smitten to heart and would repent and choose differently. i dunno.

if anything wc has put words to my own frustrations - why doesn't anything work? could it be that they have merely asked the same question that we have all been asking for so long - and have done so in such a way to call all of us back to the same question at the same time?

Praise God that leaders in the church are becoming to humbly admit the failure of mans plans and the success of Gods. Go and make disciples is surely a call to teach and minister the body of believers in strength and truth, in spirit and in worship. Pray for the entire body of Christ and for the entire church that this revelation becomes the cornerstone of our walk with Jesus. †

Thank you for being so transparent WC! But, please please, keep up the excellent work! What you have done for church growth has been tremembous! All churches are just like yours;the programs we try to put on for persons to become disciples is a many of times, futile. Not because we have not tried to carry out Matt 28:19 but because people are not looking to walk in the love of our lord. They have to be willing Isaiah 1:19. Willow Creek you have not failed in any way! You have succeeded! You have succeeded in ushering people in the Kingdom of God! Jesus was just as put off with his disciples after he had arose from the grave Mk, 16:14-17. He had to 'upbraid' them for their unbelief. So if he had the same problem with his disciples, the ones that actually participated in his ministry), we are going to have the same challenges with unbelief in people today. So we have to go back and 'force' them to believe. So I am not in any way disappointed with your findings. Go to another level and increase your membership to 100,000! Keep doing what you found that works! Again, please please don't stop doing what you are doing!

Caution before criticism. From one who completely disagrees with the mega church approach to 'discipleship," what I see is a leader who has noticed a huge error in something that was working very well. All church leaders need to ask themselves if numbers are the only indication of life in their congregation. If it is based on how many people come to an event then they have once again fallen into a odd form of idolotry. But does it ever translate into job security! Church leaders need to take on the risky call of Jesus instead of taking comfort in participation of members and meaningless events. And all of us must pause and try to imagine a Willowcreek full of members who are striving to be sincere, compassionate, DISCIPLINED, followers of Christ.

Frank Lawler:
Let us hope so.
With some of the comments. It always pains me for someone to assume that criticism is always to tear down and that those that criticize "just sit behind their computers and criticize." I can't speak for everyone, but as for me, I am way to busy for good and ill.
The real questions here are epistemology and do we really believe in "spirit and truth" or just what seems to work.
Grace Alone,
Greg

As someone who is performing volunteer leadership in a numbers-driven, Willow-cloned church, I am acutely aware of the program-driven model and its shortcomings. We routinely implore people of all spiritual ages into "serving" in dozens of "ministries." Since the same people serve in multiple capacities, all I feel we are doing sometimes is cramming one more obligation into their already packed schedules - not actually providing them a chance to serve others in any real way. Since these churches are aimed primarily at upper-middle class white people, all we're really doing is making them twice the driven yuppie they already were.

Yes, we have small groups but a majority of members don't attend because of the criss-crossing logistics involved in schlepping kids to and from childcare which is back at the church. And the small groups are overwhelmingly billed as social support, not discipleship.

I'm glad Willow has finally been awakened to this problem. Let's hope the Hybelites follow.

Matt 28:19 tells us to go and make disciples! That is just what WC is doing/done! Why are all of you out here acting as if you have done better than WC?! The fact is you have not! So stop being critical! (You are really being envious..Ja 3:16)

They are doing just what MATT 28:19 tells them. So what, sometimes things don't turn out the way they expected. It happened the same way with Jesus. And it was not because he (Jesus) did not try! Look at Matt 11.

There are churchs that we call entry level, which WC has majored in with seeker sensitive services. Bless You WC! Keep up the wondefrul, blessed work!

My church has been in business for 100 years (1907) and they have not nearly had the success that WC has had in their 30 years. Now, my church is only a bunch of old people remembering how things used to be. They (my denomination) think they have the corner on how God works. (My how mistaken they are!) This seems to be the thinking of every major denomination.

Church people stop being so theological when critisizing WC. You all sound like a bunch of fogetys that probaly are in charge of failing ministries! Shut up jealous pastors and ministry workers! JUST SHUT UP ABOUT WC!!!! Go and continue to work ministry as God has given to you and get a plan to usher people in the Kingdom of God!

Why is it that we think that we have to make quality disciples? This is not our job! On waters, one plants, but God gives the increase! God will grow people not the preacher or even ministries. People come on and read your bibles.

One thing that WC did that was not wise in my opinion. Putting their business out to a bunch of jealous, envious, holier than thou, believers.

Hey guys do you think that God maybe redirecting HIS people, working in HIS ministry, to do things a little different so that the people HE wants to meet just might get to meet HIM because THEY (the church)changed the way they approach THEM (oh that would be the lost person and hurting christian that has been kicked to the curb or slips through their churches programs and traditions that don't do one thing to preserve the fundamentals of the faith...did I say that?! to preserve them they must be taught, they must be learned, and the responsibility lies in the the individual to grow in grace and knowledge of the LORD JESUS CHRIST)and THEY get off their lazy and introduce the lost to CHRIST and instruct the unchurched to a healthy, happy, and helpful relationship IN CHRIST.
I am on staff at a local church on the other side of the country from WC and strange enough going through a similar self evaluation and church evaluation for the last 3 weeks with our Pastor and 5 staffers. We have not been very successful with our current plan or the lack there of.
It would do all of us good to realize that WE (the church) are in God's business and WE need to ask ourselves the question how is business??? Is God getting a good return on HIS investment?
Boys: times change, I know GOD never changes ie...His holiness, righteousness, grace, mercy, longsuffering, way of salvation and so on, but His creation (man kind) is changing and THEY must be reached on THEIR terms, where THEY are, and in THEIR hurt for Christ sake and exhorted to learn of HIM Matt 11:28.
God speed WC and Pastor Hybles

The lesson we must take is not so much the passing of the truth through story-telling as Mike suggests, but I believe it is the programmed structure of the ministry that we seem to be obsessed with. I believe the church over the years has succumbed to the commercial or corporate methodology of doing ministry - where everything is planned, programmed and calculated to the last dime or penny or paisa or even the minute, leaving no option for the dynamic of the divine and human interface. We have not only institutionalized ministry and missions that nothing is left to the working of the Holy Spirit of God. As both the Willow Creek report reveals and an earlier blog on 'Ur' by Gordon MacDonald (Leader's Insight: So Many Christian Infants: Why are we so good at leading people to faith and so bad at prodding them to maturity?) about why we do not have mature Christians in our churches wisely suggests - it is relationships and not so much the reducing of all teaching of truth to the pulpit but to the casual, informal and spontaneous communication of the truth in day to day living, conversations and life-styles. I have been a Christian for over 35 years and been involved in preaching ministry for nearly 22 years, and I have come to realize that we cannot reduce the whole communication of the truth to the 20 minute or 30 minute bullet-pointed sermon on a Sunday morning or a conference session.

Lately I have realized that the communication of truth in informal settings and spontaneous interactions go a long way in making the truth comprehensible and better internalized by the individual. Disciples are made and Christians are mentored better this way. And a closer look at the way Jesus or Paul taught would reveal the same. Most of the communication that Jesus did was through day-to-day conversations in real life, informal and spontaneous situations. In such communication there is participation, authenticity and a dynamic that cannot be got in any programme. You will find very few large, programmed or formal meetings in the Gospels or the Book of Acts. After being in pulpit ministry for over 22 years I have now changed my whole approach – giving more time to individuals and to conversations in informal settings much more than to larger, formal meetings. That does not mean we do need the formal, programmed meetings. We need them, they have their value – in such settings it gives opportunity for larger groups of Christians to meet one another and interact and learn from others.

A word of caution regarding Mike Rucker’s comment, “everything that a believer reads or thinks has to first be filtered through what's orthodox, or what the reformation said, or what the Chicago statement of inerrancy argued, yada yada yada.” While one can understand how sometimes ‘bibliolatry’ can go to painful and ridiculous lengths one should never underestimate the significance of rooting our faith both in the Word of God and also to fashion it on the lines of the historic Christian faith. Otherwise we would reduce Christianity to personal understanding and private interpretations of individuals without any biblical and historical moorings thus making it no different from folk religions.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

I can find no record of Paul, Peter, or any other apostle using "programs" to build the church. They simply lifted up Jesus!

Many of the mega churches are more into a "purpose driven church"...the purpose of becoming the biggest. We are called to be SPIRIT driven!

I have personally written to this church to explain that one of their popular programs...domestic abuse is based upon a myth. They state 95% of the victims of abuse are women. Truth...half are men and we showed that from unbiased research. Still, since they want to be politically correct, they refused to listen and as a result, their program can not be Biblically sound if it is based upon lies. It also makes me wonder about the other programs. If they are telling people what they want to hear, they are not telling them what they NEED to hear. REAL Christianity has never been popular with the masses.

This article too makes me wonder...is this another ploy to tell people what they want to hear?

Pastor Ken Deemer
Director Shattered Men
http://www.shatterdmen.com/

I am no theologian but when i read the Acts i see the prominent place the Holy spirit had in the running of the Church. I am very suprise to see the different names brought forward and by the way, who is Mr Research for the leadership to listen to and believe? I thought the leadership should listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. I think if the church listen to the voice of the experts and the professionals and some so called theologians then it has really lost its way.

I wonder how much time the leadership spent on prayer and listening to thwe voice of the Holy Spirit?

What i mean it has taken about almost twenty something years to find out the mistake.

However, on the other side of the coin, after saying the above, I would like to attend this kind of church to be pastored by this kind of pastor who is not afraid and not too proud to announce that he had made a mistake. It's just too good to be true.

The article states,

"In the Hawkins’ video he says, “Participation is a big deal. We believe the more people participating in these sets of activities, with higher levels of frequency, it will produce disciples of Christ.” This has been Willow’s philosophy of ministry in a nutshell. The church creates programs/activities. People participate in these activities. The outcome is spiritual maturity. In a moment of stinging honesty Hawkins says, “I know it might sound crazy but that’s how we do it in churches. We measure levels of participation.”"

In the article and in the comments there is still no definition of what constitutes 'Spiritual Maturity' or 'Disciples of Christ'. Doesn't that seem odd?

I guess my biggest concern now is this: Is Willow Creek now going to give a copy of these findings to every church that has been trying to do the program ministry for the past 30 and tell them that they need to focus on Prayer, Holy Scriptures and community? That would be a better use of Willow Creeks time and effort. A lot of churches have listened to Willow for quite some time and now they are saying their ministry plan (which isn't found in Scripture to begin with) doesn't work. Well what about all of the medium/smaller churches that have tried to follow their example? Does Willow have a plan to now help them? I hope so. It would awesome to have a large church/organization pumping out high quality materials on prayer, how to read the Scriputres and how to develope Christ centered communites. If they were geared toward new believers all the way up through the mature Christian elder. That would be sweet (for lack of a better word!).

For WC: some of us get real nervous when we hear Americans saying they want to transform the planet

I agree that one of the things that makes Willow great is their ability to admit mistakes. I also agree with the basic premise of teaching people to be less reliant on the church per se. But let's not all jump on Willow as if what they've done in the past has been "wrong." I think in many ways Willow has been effective in doing just what they say-- reaching seekers and building believers; a lot more effective than most churches have been. If more churches were like Willow in their priorities and approach to things, we would have cause to be thankful, and rightfully so.

Entry level churches? That is beyond the pale.
So, growing folks go to one church and newbies or non-believers go to an entry level church. Then who are leading the newbies? Who is evanglizing?
Answer. A growing professional ministry. This my friends is dangerous. As I watched Greg H's confession, I was alternately warmed by his honesty, and heartbroken by his professionalism.
Might I suggest books brothers and sisters.
Brothers We are Not Professionals-Piper
Saving Ministry from the Success Syndrome-R. Kent Hughes
1 and 2 Corinthians by a guy name Paul of Tarsus.
You will find we are not professionals. Christians do not live their lives in castes. We are saved by God for good works chosen by Him before (Eph 2:10). Among those works is serving those who are less mature than us. The pastors calling is to enable/equip others to do that work (Eph 4).
An entry level church is not a church. An advanced church is not a church. A church is a group of people called out by God to worship God and serve God and men.
Greg

I applaud Bill Hybels for admitting the mistake and what they believed was the right thing to do for helping his congregation. That took courage and not too many pastors, I think, would own up to something like that.

No other book or strategy program can replace what is revealed in the New Testament letters.

Acts 2:42-47 is the example we should follow.

Semper fi in Christ.

Grow up Kent!!!! Your comment tells me that you are a Kool-Aid drinker! As a 20 year vet of WCCC I stopped drinking long enough to realize how much programs and events blurred the vision to teach the regular old fogetys (I think you mean fogeys) like me real, true, Scripture so we can be strengthened to go out and win lost people and have an impact on the culture not vice versa which seems to be happening.

I no longer attend WCCC and am glad I cut the cord. It was after a LOT of tears, but tears turned to anger and frankly last spring Hybels took us vets to the pole barn and told us that we are responsible for our own spiritual growth. That was a big time cop out for Hybels as he and the other leaders are failing at their jobs. Scripture is clear about what a pastor/teacher/elder is supposed to do for their flock. Hybels flock is the world which now includes Bono.

Please....

Maybe we should all take a second look at Richard J. Foster book, Celebration of Discipline. After all many have made mention of Jesus command Go make disciples. Let's Go!

"Make people less dependent on the church."

That is a large problem with the American church. We are independent of it. We are supposed to be brought in to a dependence on Christ and His church.

We are looking to American society, not The Bible for our model.
Greg

I have been a christian for 30 years and know many people who sit in church and might not even be saved ,they have been there for decades. Church is a social club and they are 'good' people.
I just want to feel safe somewhere and when the church is no different than the world were in trouble.Hard work and discipline infused by the Holy Spirit's power is what works.
Concerning some of the above posts I agree about the emphasis on orthodoxy being too preeminent, but after coming out of screwed up abusive shepherding churches that don't know orthodoxy for me the pendulem has swung in that direction. I do get tired though of the gospel according to CS Lewis more than I do the gospel of Jesus..

It's good to see leaders taking a good look at what they do and to pick it to pieces and separate what's good and what's not.

At the end, everything we do in Jesus Name will be tested by fire. What's good and left will be our eternal legacy. Everything else will be gone. It's only encouraging to see leaders trying to improve what they do.

Thanks to WC for a gutsy look at themselves. Think stages of spiritual growth just like stages of academic and emotional growth. WC has done well with Pre and New Believers. Not so well with folks with spiritual problems who Stalled and not at all well with the older, more committed types.

So, WC is a good OB GYN unit that gets people born again and then follows up with pretty good nursery school and kindergarten but poor counseling and guidance for the children and teenagers who have problems.

They do worst with the Seasoned Saints who have developed a deeper life with Christ & need college and graduate school. So, WC has been very successful with beginners but not good with helping folks Finish Well. I am an educator and counselor who read Reveal to see what kind of growth philosophy they had. They assumed if people came, gave and volunteered thay would grow & be satisfied. They were wrong in that assumption.

The WC folks are smart and getting wise. I am sure they will learn from this and change their ways. I hope they consult an expert in Xn growth, healing and education or they will still make wrong assumptions and develop inadequate programs.

Shrewd guess: the profits
from all the program books and other
materials are down.

What to do!?

It has been said that there is no cross
in the WC buildings, and not much
emphasis on sin and repentance.
Perhaps, the story of Jesus as He told it
would be a good place to start over?

this is a perfect example of how we can feed the flesh and build church attendance . i thank God they repent and saw the lignt . satan doesnt care how big we buld the church he cares if we go out and share our faith to the lost . It is time we equip everyone to share there faith and get out of the church hit the streets and preach the gospel. 150,000 people die every single day and we are playing computer games at church . If you truly believe the bible when Jesus speaks about hell more then heaven .Jesus last commands before he went to heaven was to preach the gospel top every creature . That means me and you.

I am a staff member with Campus Crusade for Christ. Similar to Willow Creek, we also are looking at the issue of how to help people grow in intimate relationship with Christ.

We are finding that people want to know who God is. They want to understand God. They want to know how to trust God. And they want to see God change their lives, change their behavior, which they sense is not pleasing to God and not working for them. These are the kind of questions we hear. They don't want to be entertained in this area. They want God's answers and, initially, need someone to guide them to these answers in the Bible.

Since the Internet is such a natural place for people to search, we created www.EveryStudent.com, a very effective evangelistic site now being used in our campus approach worldwide. And we have a site for new believers, www.StartingwithGod.com, which has excellent written messages to help them grow. Both are a comfortable way to understand who God is and what it can be like to know Him in a real way.

In ministries, I think it is important to include such Internet sites, to allow people to search and feed themselves. They provide an informative, personal way for God to speak to someone. Always free, and always available. The real value to the person, is having strong, biblical content presented in an understandable way.

Why do we have to try until all else fails, before we go back to the instructions (Matthew 28:18-20)! Hopefully, the American church can get it right before Jesus returns! Admire WC's honesty and right motivation to recognize the truth and set out to right their wrong directions.

Wow, I can't believe the vitriol expressed in these comments by those who claim to be Christians.

The fact of the matter is that whether a church is expository or narrative in preaching, reformationist or Arminian (or somewhere in between), traditional or contemporary, laden with Christian trappings or warehouse-like, or whatever pet doctrine or ideology you hold, it shares the blame that together, the church in America has failed to produce the claims of the gospel to produce transformed lives.

There are just as many doctrine laden churches with stagnant believers as there are immature believers in seeker driven models.

Jesus was so right when he taught us to self-reflect first before judging others.

Perhaps this Biblical process will make us much more effective because we become focused on making things right rather than trying to be right.

What Bill is expressing is what many pastors and church leaders are now waking up to in EVERY church model - how do we become effective in making disciples because that is what Jesus commanded us to do?

The question has been raised and all of us need to provide an answer.

What is your church's process for discipleship?

Helen stated:

It has been said that there is no cross
in the WC buildings, and not much
emphasis on sin and repentance.

I searched their website and could not find the most important message....how to be saved. I have a website with over 800 pages and although it is aimed for a secular group...at the top of each and every page you will find a link to "how to have eternal life" Our purpose is to help heal the scars of abuse in both men and women...but the only way this can really be done is by the nailed scarred hands and our job is to point to those hands.

When I hear "seeker friendly" I do ask..what are they seeking? Membership in a church to feel better...or JESUS...to BE better?

Jesus said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to ME!"

That was the message Paul preached..and it is the message that I want to give to those who God brings into my path.

Hawkins is correct in his assumptions. I live near Willow Creek and attended since youth and unfortunately it has turned into the rich mansion loving Barrignton homebodies it was trying to avoid in the first place.

They don't give indiscriminately anymore to try to draw people who are NEEDY unbelievers but just emulate other "successful" Christians to moderation.
They are just another movie theater now.

They aren't that bad as their teaching is world class, but teaching is NOT ENOUGH as it doesn't relate to the attender! It's just too big and rich now and Bill Hybels needs to focus on the little things and not manage everything. He should really know the names of people who have put allot into Willow. Instead they just die and noone seems to care.

Many churches that have followed the seeker-friendly, church growth model have compromised worship by assuming that evangelism should be done simultaneously. So, instead of worshipping, they entertain. Instead of challenging, they encourage. Instead of songs that lift Him up, they sing songs that make people feel good. Instead of preaching the full and glorious and sometimes scary truth of His Word, they say what people want to hear. And people go out feeling good, and entertained…and unchanged.

Worship is to be our humble response to the revelations of our Sovereign God. It is He who calls people to Himself according to His will. A friend of mine said it very well: “As we lift up Christ in worship that is acceptable to Him, men are drawn to Him. Our vibrancy, elements of worship, music style, etc. are to be our Spirit-led attempts to enable a Biblical response to God for who He is and what He does. God becomes the audience of our worship and the church is put on display before the lost as the redeemed praising their Savior. That is either attractive or repulsive to those observing - certainly not neutral. It is then God who calls them to Himself.”

The church’s focus in her assembly is very clear in Acts 2: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer."

The results followed: “All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.”

And growth came as a result: “And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.”

It’s good to see that Willow has seen the light.

I had heard they did this study but had not heard much about the outcome. I'm not that surprised with the findings but am pleased. I've been talking for the last 3 years how the church has become too complicated and focusing more on programs than ministry and more on evaluating itself against a self defined level of excellence than against the Christ-likeness of attenders. It's tough to not be consumeristic in such a consumeristic society as America. I'm not yet sure what the answers are other than getting back to what God intended the church to be. I'm quite sure He never intended it to be so complicated as we have made it. Come to think of it, we've sort of done the same thing with Christianity too.

This is not really about WC, in truth. WC has been the focus of a lot of attention because of the evangelism and ecclesiological precepts they've used (and taught others). Bill Hybels' faithfulness, good intentions, or practical results are not relevant, when you're debating a set of philosophy principles. If the principles are true, then they are true even if Bill fails to live up to them; and if they're unbiblical, then they're unbiblical regardless of his personal zeal.

I am an EFCA pastor working to bring the outreach aspect of the church I serve up to snuff. I have cherry-picked bits and pieces out of Saddleback and WC materials, but I will not invest into the total program.

I don't believe that Willow Creek is sufficiently anchored enough in Biblical theology. It comes out of the same wishy-washy, leftist evangelicalism as Wheaton College. I think their view of original sin is weak. I don't believe they see sinners as being spiritually dead. I think they have always underestimated how much the Bible tells us about methods -- IOW, the Lord does not just give us goals, and then tell us to go to it. For example, the New Testament clearly teaches that the Lord's Day meeting is for the worship of the Godhead, the celebration of the Table, and the edification of believers, not for the evangelization of the lost.

Willow Creek capitulates too much to progressive secularity (for example, it doesn't teach or support male headship, and violates Scripture by having female elders). It doesn't accept that the Gospel (by its own nature and the nature of the dead human heart) offends people; or that offense is an unavoidable part of doing evangelism. I can't see Willow Creek ever causing the kind of hostile uproar that Jesus used to cause.

So the admission, "We've realized that a high level of program participation doesn't make people grow" is only the tip of the iceberg. They could fix that, and there will still be a lot wrong.

It's sad to me to see the number of people that want to criticize and say I told you so, I'll bet most have never attended WC but just read other accounts in the media and add their uninformed two cents to it. If your hearts are so good, Christ-like and smarter than everyone else's, I think you should be praying for WC not condemning them.

The Truth About REVEAL

Friends,

I’m thrilled to see the high level of interest and energy behind the blogosphere comments about REVEAL. But I’ve read enough postings to think that it might be helpful to provide a few facts on three issues that keep coming up. Trust me. I’m not into “spin control” here. I just want to fill in some gaps.

1. It’s Not About Willow
• REVEAL’s findings are based on thirty churches besides Willow. In all thirty churches, we’ve found the six segments of REVEAL’s spiritual continuum, including the Stalled and Dissatisfied segments. And these churches aren’t all Willow clones. We’ve surveyed traditional Bible churches, mainline denominations, African-American churches and churches representing a wide range of geographies and sizes. Right now we’re fielding the survey to 500 additional churches, including 100 international churches. So, while REVEAL was born out of a Willow research project in 2004, the findings are not exclusive to Willow Creek.
2. Willow Repents?
• The first blog started with this question, and the answer is “yes”. But repenting is not a new experience for us. We’ve made a number of major course corrections over the years – like adding a big small group ministry for the thousands of new Christians coming to faith at Willow, and adding a mid-week service for our Christ-followers. We’ve always been a church in motion and REVEAL is just another example of Willow trying to be open to God’s design for this local church.
3. Is Willow Re-thinking its Seeker Focus?
• Simple answer – no. My boss would say that Willow is not just seeker-focused. We are seeker-obsessed. The power of REVEAL’s insights for our seeker strategy is the evangelistic strength uncovered in the more mature segments. If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings.

I hope this was helpful. In any event, I’m enjoying following the dialogue. Keep it up! And let me know if you have any questions you’d like me to address.

Greg Hawkins