I would have to concur with Prof. Wright, statistical anaylsis of complex systems require a kinetic study that extends just beyond a single data point time check.
I would have to say that Reveal is little more than a single data point on what should be a very large/long study...Prof. Wright's position of inconclusive is being polite.

My suggestion to Willow Creek and Mr. Hybil's is very simple...do your best with what you got, and stop trying to be everything to everyone.
You're a church of people for people.
A business does not recognize the value of the individual person because all a business see's is a customer or employee, so stop acting like you're a damnable Fortune 500 company looking to improve it's customer satisfaction, and just be the church G-d has envisioned you to be.

Watching this story, and the reaction it receives has been fascinating.

In my mind it shows a lot of courage on Willow Creek's part. It would have been a lot easier to sweep these findings under the rug, saying, "it's just an anomaly."

But with any social scientific research (which is what this tried to be), you need to be careful with the conclusions you draw. As the old adage goes, correlation is not causation.

Regardless of the final conclusions, the results of the data are still interesting.

When I first saw Greg Hawkins explain the paradigm shift of the nature of Willow Creek, I was excited for them.

And then I saw Bill Hybels explain their solution: To create personalized spiritual growth programs. At least, that's what I think I heard.

If the solution of the decline of spiritual passion is to create personalized spiritual growth programs, then I'd be compelled to say they solved their problem with the same problem in different wrapping.

Running a church like a business is truly cringe-worthy.

Hybels, in the video, said he wanted to make people to be spriitual "self feeders." This apparently means they are to be self-interpreters of God's Word as evidenced by the fact that Brian McLaren is the speaker at the 2008 Shift Conference.

Willow has responded to their own acknowledgement of their wrong path by taking a turn for the worse.

As a researcher in spiritual growth, I'm concerned that REVEAL will be held up as the sole measure of spiritual health. For the purpose of church assessment, taking the REVEAL survey may be useful b/c you can have a number of other churches to compare themselves to. But from a research standpoint, in order to understand how to promote spiritual growth, a more diverse approach is necessary.

I think that spiritual growth should not be simply measured by devotionals, tithing, and involvement in spiritual growth programs. We also need to look at people's spirituality to determine whether or not it is intrinsically motivated, whether or not people have Christian God Concepts, and how people use their faith to cope with problems, for example (these are my research interests). I hope that church leaders don't believe they are getting a comprehensive picture of their church after taking the REVEAL survey and realize that there is a lot more in the spiritual life of their congregations.

Program evaluation is good. I hope that whatever WC does next starts with this in mind.

Oh, and if God just decides to move, then I hope they get out of the way.

The church has been working with issues of spiritual growth and formation for a rather long time. I suspect that individuals do not mature as well as people in biblical community. Yet, our culture pushes us toward doing everything as individuals. I hope that the work that Willow is doing and has done will be considered by the church but I hope that it will be a catalyst for deeper reflection about how we do church in the postmodern context.

Peace,
Kevin

Many of the comments I have seen are from people who have not read the book for themselves. There a too many churches out there not measuring what they are doing. Like it or not - call it a business approach or something else - you can't ignore how the people in your church are feeling. It is not the fifties where people went to church because their parents did (and thank God or that!) Lets start doing something in our churches that transform people. Kudos for Willow Creek for not taking their apparent success for granted.

I think for me the most important element that I got from the Reveal research is the high percentage of spiritually mature Christians that are dissatisfied with their church. Many churches (mine included) do not know how to mobilize and utilize this group.

I commend Bill Hybels and his entire team for this act of humility and gift to the Church. There are many things to say about it, but I give only one here in this space. The finding that church activities do not predict or drive long term spiritual growth[page33] tells me two thing. First, what churches are focused on, namely increasing attendance based on what people like,runs out of steam after a while among those they have reached. Second, that people who are not developed internally, stall out in managerial, even banal activity that makes them start looking for a new place to or or just drop out.

This is Cally Parkinson, day-to-day director of REVEAL and co-author of the REVEAL book.  The timing of this post couldn’t be better.  We too enjoyed Professor Wright’s series of posts (see Ten REVEALing Posts from 2007 on the REVEAL blog) and are in the process of soliciting questions from anyone who wants to understand more about the methodology behind the REVEAL data.  In just over a week, we’ll be recording a podcast where our two key researchers will explain our process and respond to these questions.  We’ve invited Bradley Wright to join us in the studio to talk through these issues and chances are he will.  We are just over half-way through conducting the REVEAL survey in 500 churches and continue to have a strong sense that God’s hand is on this work.  I address some of Professor Wright’s concerns directly in a post on our REVEAL blog.  In case you want to check that out.

To add to what Curtis, said, what about trying to assess not just personally beneficial spiritual activities, but actions that benefit the world? Tithing is one area, but what about volunteering or even dedicated time for intentional parenting?

The professor's observations are very helpful. I would imagine that if you polled members of just about every church in America, you would find stalled and dissatisfied members. That alone should cause some pastors/leaders who major in criticizing Hybels and Willow Creek to drop a few of their stones. I just want to use REVEAL to help me minister to the people in my city effectively.

Personally, I think churches too often rely on models set by other churches. They fail to realize that what works for one church or one community is not always going to best fit your own church. The best thing a church can do is not a program or model, but it is to be small enough to care about the members' spiritual growth and their concerns/needs. Inside a larger church, this may be done by having cell groups or several different pastors connecting with a small segment of the church. In a smaller church it is often easier because you have more of a "family" approach. You don't get lost in the crowd, people call you when you don't show up. Not just the pastors, your peers are calling to see how you are doing. It needs to be more relational and less programmed in my opinion. We also too often define "success" by the number of people in attendance. If we don't fill the church we feel like we have failed. Don't overlook the ones who actually did show up. Make sure you focus on the fact that they were there, strive to meet their needs and equip them for service. You can't rely on people to come to church just because it's the right thing to do. There is too much competing for their attention.

It seems to me that Willow would have to measure the lives of their members against the lives of people not involved in discipleship programs. One of Barna's books (can't remember which one right now) said that the behavior, outside of church, of proclaimed Christians as compared to non-believers was not statistically different, even in some areas, worse. This type of survey would show whether discipleship programs have a bearing on the real lives of people.

The whole concept of Spiritual Growth and the Continuum paradigm creates a certain amount of tension. Where do Moses and David develop their spiritual sensitivities to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The answer is on the backside of the desert. Where do we see the full effectiveness of the John the Baptist and even, Jesus, but in the wilderness and also spending ample time alone with the Father. A frenzied friendship with a Sweet Jesus who knows all my needs, wants, and wishes does not produce a mature disciple, but one who is consumed with carnality and sensuality.

Self-disclosure assessments are always subjective and inconclusive. That is a well established fact.

The church is The Body of Christ. He has given us a multitude of "one another" commands related to our Transformation into His image. Any assessment that relies MERELY on my 'read' on my spiritual progress is seriously flawed by the bias of my sin nature not to mention self agrandizing ego.

It IS POSSIBLE to assess Spiritual Formation with a relatively high degree of accuracy. Every local assembly should be perpetually engaged in this noble effort. We are to evaluate one another and a cord of three strands is not easily broken (or able to skew the results of the assessment)! Anyone interested may contact me at info@igniteus.net.

Grace to all,

I rededicated my life 21 years ago and in that period have been a member of 6 different churches.For 20 years I have been involved with discipling men in jail with the Good News Jail Ministry. Often I will ask my class of about 20 men how many of them were attending church prior to their arrest. The typical response is around 60%. I then ask them how many of them were intentionally discipled in church, by that I mean someone had some kind of a program for the new believer to participate in that would teach them why we believe what we believe (Trinity - how does 1+1+1=1 explain that to a Muslim; Is Dawkins right or is it reasonable to believe in God? How is the Bible different from the Koran or Pearl of Great Price?..basic doctrine). None were nor have I ever seen such a program. The prevailing ethos seems to be simply to get people to come to church.

Willow isn't alone in failing to disciple believers, they've just been more honest in admitting the failure. I cannot help but commend them for that and for some attempt to address the problem.

And so the mechanisms of western church continue. Reveal is now another diversion for the church community to sink their teeth into, debate, argue, analyze and produce lots of literature and multi media presentations about. All the while ignoring the business of doing the stuff Jesus told us to do. Making church (ie debating, writing etc) is a lot easier than 'doin the stuff' (taking care of the homeless, feeding the poor, visiting the prisoners, sitting with the troubled prostitute/druggie/manager etc. Doing church generally pays better and offers more acknowledgment (glory) as well. Then theres the book spin offs, DVD's and speaking engagements. Well done Willow Creek, Reveal will keep the Christians tied up and busy for a long time - it's already got me hooked in!

Having served as a discipleship pastor, I read Reveal with great interest. And, frankly, I wasn't particularly surprised at the findings. What I think some of the comments I've read are missing is that this is not an either/or issue. Real spiritual growth happens both individually and in community. Experiencing the preaching and teaching of God's word and God's principles is critical. But so is developing a rich "inner life" of the spirit. The two both complement each other and hold the other in check. They must be held in delicate balance if we are to move toward true wholeness in Christ.

If our learning is only in the worship and classroom context, we may become reliant on hearing God only through the voices of other people, and we can miss ways in which God seeks intimacy with us alone. And, we get lazy about "search[ing] the scriptures" for ourselves so that we can be confident of what we are hearing.

If we become too absorbed in our "self-feeding," we do run the risk, as another poster mentioned, of falling into faulty self interpretation and even delusion. We need the accountability of spiritual partners and the wider faith community to help us avoid this error.

While I agree that spiritual growth/development is not a strictly linear process, it is a process that can and should be evaluated. Indeed, I think that particularly in the contemplative tradition of the Church, this has always been assumed.
Whether or not their methodology ultimately proves to be sound, I applaud Willow Creek for its willingness to ask the question that all churches should be asking--"Are we making disciples?" Too often, our evaluations are focused only on membership numbers, finances or popularity. However, Jesus will evaluate us based on the instructions he gave: 1) Love God and love your neighbor; 2) Make disciples and teach them to do the same.

I appreciated Willow Creek's acknowledgement of their struggles to mature disciples. If all the surveys over the last several decards are correct it is THE struggle of the American church in general - mini and mega. Divorce rates, teen promiscuity, materialism, prayerless pastors - all of these and more seem to indicate what Willow Creek discovered is true (regardless of survey science) not just for them but for almost all of us involved in the process of trying to make disciples.

My Daddy often said.. " If you ask the wrong question you will always get the wrong answer'" THe question is not are you faithful but have you been a faithful steward ...See 1 Corth4:1-2.Quit ckecking for resuts ...Jeremiah was not successful but Faithful...In Jesus Conrad

I'm trying to discern why people have a problem with the self-feeder approach because isn't that what we are? We are each individually accountable for our spiritual status and growth. The church offers opportunities to nourish, but force feeding does not work.
Fear of the self-feeder (or better described as the individual accountablity approach) is more a fear of loss of control than a fear that a person might start having an unbiblical worldview.
In the emerging culture, our obligation is not to tell people what to believe, but rather to encourage personal relationship with Christ. Create an atmosphere or environment conducive to growth. Then we let God do the rest!
Simplicitic thinking, you might say. But God's approach is generally much simplier than our own!

Reveal showed us their guts, not their sophistication in research and discipleship. A lot more thoughts and discussion needs to be give to how to promote spiritual growth. It is not from sitting in a pew or chair and listening.

Research on change from psychology and social work affirms the biblical record about the approach of Jesus. He took 12 and spent a lot of time doing the stuff and practicing the stuff. Then He said, "Go make disciples and do the stuff."

Loving relationships doing tasks together and witnessing together and healing together is a good start.

If we would simply love one another as He loves us, and the Father loves Him, and He loves the Father....the "one with one another", even as He is one with the Father, and the Father with Him, would begin to work itself out under the guidance of the Comforter. It involves some trust, on behalf of the leaders, in God's nurturing of His Bride, and less confidence in themselves doing it all. One area to begin would be to allow and encourage open, honest, orderly discussion among the Body with each other when we gather on the big meetings (Sunday's). I think most leadership fears this, as they are overly concerned with losing members (money), and not providing enough of a "service". We are not customers, shareholders, prospective clients....we are the Body of Christ..alive with Him. Let the Life be seen by those searching. "Uncork the bottle", as someone once observed regarding "plugged-up" meetings. Keep it real or we get into patterns..ruts...ditches...trenches...entrenchment.. and finally, losing our Pulse altogether as we attempt to simulate "life". KEEP IT REAL!!