Craig - that's just a bizarre post. To out Cloverfield and the Emergent Church into the same basket shows how desperate you are to generate conversation.

"A struggling, insecure church has identified emergent Christians as the new enemy" - your words Craig. I'm sorry but many are not struggling and insecure. It's like those opposed to homosexuality are automatically labeled "homophobic" -give me a break.

I don't come from am emergent background - neither am I from a fundamental background. I appreciate what the Emergents are "trying" to do - move the church along. But instead of attacking and questioning doctrine, why can't they attack and question methods instead?

I've got nothing against sofa's and jeans - who gives a toss about dress code - but when doctrines are questioned, that's when the line is drawn in the sand.

By the way, I thought Cloverfield was a great movie. Ugly monster though.

Craig, speaking of Internet rumors, I got this email today:

"I wonder if you would please answer a quick question from a genuine seeker....
My mind is reeling with the comments I hear from friends who attack the Emergent Movement. I could not possibly research all of their claims, but have caught major players in lies about Rob Bell. Would you please tell me if you have a book out that encourages people to carry actual idols around, to talk to them and rub them, and eventually they will begin to talk to you and guide you? I would be honored to receive a response from you. Thank you!"

good post Craig...it is interesting to me that so many of the so called, "movement" people are just doing the same ole thing with a different type of packaging. That is NOT to say that there are many in the "movement" who are attempting to act obediently with a renewed sense of calling to incarnate the presence of Jesus in new ways in today's culture...but just because you are young, have a cool vibe, have a good guitar player leading "worship", and a cool name for your gathering doesn't make you NEW...just makes you culturally relevant. Whether those in the movement who are doing the same ole thing with new packaging will stand the test of time is up to the Lord to sort out!

"If you hate Cloverfield (or don’t even know what it is), then you probably loathe emerging Christians. If you like Cloverfield, you’re likely to dig the emergent conversation." - Craig Detweiler

"You might be an emergent Christian: if you listen to U2, Moby, and Johnny Cash’s Hurt (sometimes in church), use sermon illustrations from The Sopranos, drink lattes in the afternoon and Guinness in the evenings,..." - Kevin DeYoung/Ted Kluck

Seems like Craig, Kevin and Ted are all able to recognize emergents. Interesting...

a re-invigorated sense of mission to the zipcode you find yourself in was NEVER claimed as something new by the "emerging church" or the relational network called "emergent".

It was the critics of those voices that claimed the movement was filled with people thinking they were "new".

As one who identifies with the conversation, has been fed by it, and has had my sense of call ot ministry saved by it, I can tell you that all I, and my friends, have ever wanted was to be able to share the gospel in the most effective way possible to those who need Jesus in whatever zipcode we find ourselves serving JEsus in.

If certain "forms" help that along in my particular zipcode, then don't hate...just celebrate what God can do.

If certain "forms" don't look like your church or the way you like things...don't hate, just stay where you are and love Jesus the best you can where you are...that's all we're trying to do.

And if certain "forms" are intentionally thought through and implemented strategically...don't hate and assume our choices to do things differently are an attack on you or an adolescent attempt to assert our difference for our own ego.

And THAT assumption is what I suspect is really going on...a crappy assumption about the motivations of others and an oppressive idolatry that expects us to bow down and universalize our critics preferences.

sorry.
What I suspect the emerging church is really about is that more people are getting serious about the Kingdom in their own setting and not believing that do so we have to play the political games of self-appointed and self-important gate keepers who aren't invested in our own congregations.

Shouldn't that kind of empowered, vibrant passion for God be celebrated?

I've got nothing against sofa's and jeans - who gives a toss about dress code - but when doctrines are questioned, that's when the line is drawn in the sand.

Same old incredibly narrow menu of doctrinal options, but with sofas & jeans wouldn't be very interesting to me. I guess much depends on which doctrines are being questioned & what new options are being considered. But I think -- and hope! -- that people who are not connecting with traditional churches aren't going to be satisfied with just the same old doctrines dressed up with jeans & sofas. It's only in questioning some of the givens of Christian radio orthodoxy that the movement has any real value.

Re: Xian radio orthodoxy.

Sadly, that's where most Christians live.

When "Way of the Master" becomes the arbiter of Christian values we have a deep problem similar to a world where, on a larger scale, Oprah is the arbiter of our values.

Ick.

People in our culture (myself included) have been tired of 'labels' for a while. And now it seems we're getting tired of generalizations too. Certain metaphors and analogies still work, and I guess that is what Craig tried to do here. However, it seems his attempt became too much generalization and not enough analogy. As far as the analogy goes--yes, it's true that any movie is still a move, but we all know that not all movies are created equally. The irony in my comment? I just made a couple of huge generalizations myself.

where can i get one of those things you rub that eventually starts talking to you??

I didnt see Cloverfield. The viral marketing thing reminds me of `Blair Witch'

Once again, people are assuming that the emerging/emergent church is crossing "lines in the sand" by considering, and in some cases, re-considering, doctrine. Its as if people believe that, prior to Brian McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian", doctrine was a largely settled issue.

This is a naive perspective. Doctrine is not the unchanging monolith people make it out to be. All we in the emerging/emergent church are trying to do is be honest about the process (where contextualization ALWAYS happens)- without assuming, like so many other historical Christian movements have, that this time we've finally got it all figured out.

"You might be an emergent Christian: if you listen to U2, Moby, and Johnny Cash’s Hurt (sometimes in church), use sermon illustrations from The Sopranos, drink lattes in the afternoon and Guinness in the evenings,..."

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things" Phil 4:8

Perhaps we should spend less time on empty choruses and more time on Biblical doctrine.

"Same old incredibly narrow menu of doctrinal options...It's only in questioning some of the givens of Christian radio orthodoxy that the movement has any real value."

Jesus said:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:18

He also said:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6"

So...what givens of orthodoxy do you want to get rid of?

Seriously, these "you might be emergent if..." routines are as played out and tired as Jeff Foxworthy.
Out of Ur needs to start a Kings of Christian Comedy tour (just no Chonda Pierce!)

craig - thanks for the post. i stumbled across your "purple" film the same day i saw "we the purple" by marcia ford in the bookstore. hers was more political than yours - but i enjoyed your film.

i've been saying for a couple of years now that america is now in an inverted bell curve. we used to have minorities at the extremes and a big hump of a majority in the middle. now, we're all at extremes, with each side sounding like the the old mikey commercial: "i'm not gonna try it, you try it." the compromise that each side wants is defined by the opposition coming all the way to the other extreme.

anytime we put labels on things and start dealing with them collectively under that label, we do more to categorize ourselves than what we're labeling.

you know, if all the infighting and name-calling within Christianity would cease, this faith we have might actually catch on. worth a try anyway...

mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa

Ron,

What point were your individual verses yanked out of their context supposed to provide? For the record, I find much in U2, Johnny Cash, and yes, even The Sopranos to be honest, pure, lovely, praiseworthy, etc.

Regarding theology, its probably important to keep in mind that theology is our attempt as humans to understand how we as individuals and as a culture relate to God. While theology is primarily based in the Bible, equating any of our theologies with Jesus' words about the Jewish Law in Matt 5 is a serious category mistake. Please tell me where the words "penal substitutionary theory of the atonement" appear in those words that will not pass away.

For the record, I'm not here questioning the value of that theory - although I think that anyone who believes it sums up everything that happened in Jesus' death and resurrection is greatly limiting their understanding of the most significant event in human history.

Wow! I didn't expect an article like this from Christianity Today! The sand kicking on your side of the Atlantic is really getting childish!
Emergents must be doing something right!

I enjoyed the post, the comments were often off following other agenda's. I do often wonder why the idea of an emergent church scares so many traditional types. Then I remember the number of books written about praise music and how bad it was, is.. depending on where you are in that who conversation. I am reminded that the Holy Spirit can and does move without the permission of the established church, especially when a fresh wind of Pentecost is needed.

I agree with Daniels last post. What has been going on lately with these articles?

great post, craig - love it! I will admit that I havent seen "Cloverfield" because... well... I know I will be disappointed! I have to say that the comparisons are more than whimsical - particularly your point that what most people seem to react to is the letdown ("is this all there is after all the hype?!") says more about our eschatological weariness than whether the search for the better form of church.

So much energy has been devoted to discrediting the emergent movement, that it can also be disappointing to discover just how modest and meager their changes are.

This has been my disappointment with the emergent movement since I picked up a copy of NKOC. Too often, the changes are cosmetic (styles and practices), and I detect an unwillingness to reflect critically on the underlying beliefs and assumptions of evangelical Christianity. Sorry for the broad brush, but that's my take.

Are you kidding me?
Unreflective about the underlying beliefs of evangelicalism?

That's EXACTLY what the movement is being criticized for...

This comment thread just shows how people are not taking the time to really listen, explore, learn and understand the wide range of issues and voices in play within the EC.

Skeptical - I am, in fact, kidding you.

Actually, I will gladly confess to having failed to explore and understand the EC movement. Here's where I'm coming from--after going through something of a "crisis of faith" several years ago, friends started giving me books by McLaren, Donald Miller, etc. And I got the sense that these authors pushed things to a certain point but were careful to preserve some form of orthodoxy. Maybe that's unfair, but I wanted to ask some more basic questions about Scripture, the historical Jesus, etc., so I moved on.

Really? It's all about couches vs. chairs, jeans vs. khakis? Seriously? I hope that in part 2 you engage some serious criticism from those whose last names don't rhyme with BacBarthur or whose arguments don't ammount to "they should just learn to sit on pews and sing hymns like Christians have done for the first 2000 years."

Call this really picky (especially since I enjoyed the article), but I wish people wouldn't refer to the stereotypical member of anything in solely male language. Twice here an emergent is described as having a goatee, completely invisibilizing the female leaders of the movement. Perhaps even in the emerging church women aren't equally prominent, but that doesn't mean they're completely absent. I'm fine with your stereotyping the emerging folks to make a point, and if smaller groups of people aren't a part of that (ex: ethnic minorities) in your eyes, fine, that's your perception. But I KNOW women are involved in this movement (women are the majority of most churches, and even if there were fewer in the emerging movement, you've got to figure they couldn't ever be less than 30-40%...), and I think it's important they be included in our mental image.

Ashleigh,

Great point. Absolutely agree. I should have broadened the circle. But I chose to hold up those who have been singled out by others for the most unhelpful and reactionary attacks.

This is my simple way of asking God's people to chill out while we all wait to see what emerges. Cloverfield may be forgotten as a great marketing event. Or it may be remembered as the reinvention of staid movie conventions. Time will tell....

Movies offer a safe way to process our cultural anxiety. In monster movies we’re presented with an opportunity to corral our fears. Zombies or UFOs or viruses wreak havoc for ninety minutes before order is inevitably restored. Cloverfield depicts a seemingly ordinary evening in New York City that is derailed by an unexpected and unexplained attack.

calysoramesh
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