I'm reminded again why I love the blogosphere when I read posts like this. True, sometimes we bloggers include incendiary things in our headlines to get folks to read (though I don't think the word "repent" qualifies as such).

But the flow of information continues after we post, and the comments section help hold us accountable, and the medium itself allows opportunities for clarification like you have done here.

Bravo, Marshall!

The good news to come out of all of this...

#1 Willow is discovering that more effective ways to take people all the way from unbeliever to sold out missionary of Jesus Chriist.

#2 This study (which I believe if people actually read it would help us all) has gained a lot of attention on the Web (somewhat due to Out of Ur).

I think we need to celebrate what God is doing, get on board with the mission of making disciples, have healthy debates. But can we please please stop criticizing Willow without even reading the REVEAL study and without considering the fact that it is based on many churches and not just Willow (and other seeker churches).

Before the comments either criticizing or hailing Willow Creek begin to flow again, I just want to stop and breathe in the sweet fresh air of Christians like Hybels, Mellado, Shelley, and others coming together to listen to and love each other. Ready? Breathe in ... breathe out ... Ahhhhhh!

Let me understand this. I have read REVEAL and listened to lectures and the web posts. Willow Creek is saying that the core message is not really what they are driving at. That the gap between seekers and members will not result in major cultural changes.

Are you kidding me!!! This is corporate spin and message control!! They made CT go out to their location to dress them down on the coverage. Is this journalistic freedom or is Willow Creek trying to control their message. When they put their report out that message was put out for review and criticsm.

I am actually surprised at this. I believe in journalistic integrity and applaud you for owning what you now see as a "mistake"

But what prompted people to agree with the original post was not just the Reveal campaign or the book, but Hybels own words.

http://revealnow.com/story.asp?storyid=49

He says, "That survey rocked my world." He calls it "The wake up call of my adult life."

Hawkins even said in his own video, He says, “Our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church. That we take out a clean sheet of paper and we rethink all of our old assumptions. Replace it with new insights. Insights that are informed by research and rooted in Scripture. Our dream is really to discover what God is doing and how he’s asking us to transform this planet.”

It's kind of hard to believe that it's business as usual, when they've provided a lot of information to suggest the alternate.

Willow isn't just a church. They teach people how to do what they do. And when the teacher says, "We got it wrong." It has a little bit bigger affect that Bill seemed to be willing to admit.

I applauded him for doing it (Reveal) but as a journalist, you allowed them to ignore what was originally said.

can 'out of ur' and 'christianity today' be relied upon to report honestly about anything connected to WC or their affiliates in the future? no, not in my view at least.

As a regular Ur reader and as one who attended the Summit at a Willow satellite location last August, I certainly didn't think "repent" was the wrong word. Greg and Bill sure seemed to think this was a huge wake-up call for the church. And I took "repent" to mean redirect their energies.

The Ur and CT coverage sure didn't seem mean-spirited.

And I really wondered what prompted Bill and Jim to do a YouTube video to reiterate the Willow Creek mission statement. The video sure seemed to indicate that Willow was feeling pressure from somewhere ...

I can't wait for Ur or CT or some other trusted source to tell us the rest of the story.

Maybe Ur or CT can tell us what's really going on at Willow--with "next gen" ministry being discontinued, with satellite campuses--how's that really going? With the $80 million sanctuary, then the departure of three members of the teaching team.

Can you Reveal anything about that?

I've always admired Willow for its ministry effectiveness and willingness to innovate and to stop doing what isn't working.

To me the Reveal story is just another chapter in that saga.

I'm eager to learn what new things Willow has up its sleeve. I'm sure we'll learn from them and adapt them for our church.

Thank you Out of Ur. I was frustrated at the first article because it seemed loaded and a bit inflammatory. I said so back then and I appreciate you posting this.

Why is everyone in the church so soft? Gosh, first Ed Young starts whining about consumers being consumers in his consumer church and now Willow wants CT and UR to correct their coverage when they feel they were not in control anymore?

Once the Christian culture dies in America and/or tax right offs for donations are no longer given the mega-church institution will colapse...so I do hope that Willow makes radical shifts, radical!

Hear hear! Tim.

I'm just wondering. Will Out of Ur repent from calling those of us who blogged our struggles with WC's Consumer Church approach, "gloaters" who can't read - as we took issue with a church that admitted it had screwed up in discipling people - and then marketed that admission to the wider church.

:)

some touchy words in the comment section here...when did wanting to clarify a message start being equated with trying to squelch journalistic freedom?

based on Ur's previous coverage of all things Willow Creek, and previous responses to disagreements in general, i really doubt they would print an apology/retraction/whatever you want to call it like this if the editor did not consider it to be, as far as he/she is concerned, accurate.

i find it hard to believe the charges that Out of Ur has permitted itself to be bullied into agreement, or so star-struck by WC leaders that they would print an opinion they do not genuinely support. anyone who writes publicly knows just how dangerous to all perceptions of credibility such an action is.

I have always respected Willow Creek and I've always respected Christianity Today's publications. Now I get to see how these two exemplars of Christian influence behave when their worlds have a bit of a collision.

What I've seen here has been very positive. Lead on WC and CT. We're watching and learning.

While Ur proceeds with a mea culpa and the original intent of the original video is debated, the important question is being ignored.

What should be under the microscope is the theology being taught from the pulpit. This is the first criteria for evaluating any church body.

Are they teaching sin, repentance and Christ crucified and resurrected or are they ear ticklers?

I find this statement from the top of this post quite troublesome, "I certainly affirm the steps Willow is taking to more effectively turn irreligious people into fully devoted followers of Christ". This seems to imply that the good news of salvation isn't for the Jew, the Muslim, the Mormon, the Wiccan or the JW. Very odd.

"This seems to imply that the good news of salvation isn't for the Jew, the Muslim, the Mormon, the Wiccan or the JW. Very odd."

Melody,
I think a cursory, literal read would imply the exclusivity of which you indicate a silent protest, but given the subject I think one should look beyond the obvious semantics of what is being discussed and see the totality of the subject, which is that they're all included.

The change in direction from what I have observed is not that they are "repenting" or changing what they are doing and have done, but that they are adding a component that they have been missing due to a false assumption.

Discipleship does not happen in the big, community meeting for most people. Keep the service seeker-oriented if you want. But let's also get to the nuts and bolts of being used by God to help converts be able to stand on their own 2 spiritual feet. This is what I am looking for in their new book.

What I read in Reveal (the first book) is not new. Sonlife was teaching this in the late 70's. They also had 4 levels of growth, and from my understanding Willow Creek and Sonlife and CDI all had a part in that beginning. Willow just forgot about the 2nd half (which they are now "rediscovering"). There should be an article on that!

Interesting that few comments have included anything about the adapting of ministry to meet the culture. As a missions pastor, the missionary enterprise of the last 50 years has been accepting the challenge of contextualizing the gospel to the culture to which it is called to serve. Why would it be any different here in the U.S.? Churches who want to reach the culture must adapt. The methods of reaching and growing people in 1970 needed to be re-evaluated...just as Willow seeks to do. The gospel message is the same, the packaging changes with every generation. On vacation we attended a 150 year old church this past weekend, we sat with 40 or so other worshippers in a beautiful old sanctuary fit for 1000 people. I loved the music and the organ, but couldn't wait to return to my church with a contemporary means to reach the contemporary culture of this millenium. Let's face it, the new millenium is down the track...why not work at adapting like Willow does?! It's okay for missionaries to contextualize the gospel, why shouldn't we work as hard at it?

Hear Hear Bill!

Sad to have seen Out of Ur post that about bloggers (aka gloaters) as most posts I saw that took issue with WC and Reveal were respectful and insightful.

What I can take away from this discussion is that "pomosapiens" tend to be very discriminatory. They don't like mega-churches such as Willow Creek because those churches tend to target a more modern audience. Pomo's get super-excited (and maybe a little over-eager) at the possibility that the mega-church may possibly stumble. Obviously modernism is not as good as postmodernism so stop trying to reach those stupid, structure oriented people. (please note the sarcasim in my voice.)

Wow that came out a little more harsh than I meant. It is easy to get carried away in this "conversation". I would re-write it but then maybe keeping it can help me remember how easy it is to be contentious...

Out of Ur Repents? That is what I thought when I read the article.

What amazes me is this. REVEAL was a study done in collaboraton with many churches. But some don't seem to know this.

Also, some seemed shocked that discipleship is weak in many churches. What I love about WC is that at least they research and then are transparent enough to tell the truth. Always have been. I realize that what they took the time and resource to discover is true of every church I have been a part of during my life. The fact they had a wake-up call about this is a credit to them. Know of anyone else of their stature willing to risk it? Send me a link!

Now about the word "Repents". Out of Ur might have felt that the technical definition was their meaning in the post (though I'm sure many will also see that as "spin" as well) but in reality to millions of evangelical Christians, repent will always conjur up talk of "dealing with sin". Clearly, tons of people in America took it this way.

I (like many other responders) am happy to see this talked through. Sometimes, God wins. Wish people would communicate more before going to press. It would solve a host of problems in the body of Christ and model better communication.

Bottom line - Thanks for the effort! It takes some maturity to take this direction!

I have a great appreciation for both Willow and Leadership (Out Of Ur) for their humility in the discussion. I would like to suggest, however, that we all learn from this to avoid over-dramatizing and tabloid-esque conclusions a priori, if possible. Humanity's rubber-necking voyeuristic impulse can prove to be detrimental sometimes. http://vialogue.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/reveal/

The folks at Willow made observations that call into question the assumptions of ALL American church leaders...not just those of us in the seeker-sensitive genre.

We have tended to think that if we just get people to our church services, into our classes and small groups, and serving in our church ministries, they will become fully devoted followers of Christ.

The reveal of REVEAL is that such church based activities are indeed helpful, but not all sufficient in prompting the kind of spiritual growth and transformation all of us seek in our congregations.

Those who strive to use REVEAL as a tool against Willow have probably been contrary to their approach anyway...but REVEAL is NOT confirmation of your anti-seeker-sensitive biases.

I am one of the victims of reveal. Can you imagine following faithfully for over 20 years, doing everything Bill Hybels tells me about keeping my spiritual tempurature high, serving so faithfully and then one day Bill speaks to leaders and said oops we made a mistake. There are people involved who got hurt, who didnt grow spiritually as much as they could have, who had to watch people making money by using reveal to write books when in fact it is lives that were hurt, people who were not being taken care of spiritually and now all of a sudden we are supposed to follow the new trend when there must be some reason why three pastors all left Willowcreek within a few months and once again no one is talking about that.