As much as I enjoyed reading your post, I can't wait to read the comments . . . I wonder what the over/under is on the comment # where someone's faith/devotion/salvation/leadership/vision/etc is questioned.

Bob,
great article. I think you did a great job in connecting growth and reproduction principles with the idea that our faith is meant to be small, intimate, and communal.

You will probably never be a super famous pastor, but from what you've written here, I doubt you care.

Adam

Wonderful words for us all.
Thank you for inspiring us.

I appreciate your thoughts Bob. Those of us who preach probably need to admit that the use of video might have a little something to do with our desires to be seen and respected by more folks.

I wonder what the use of video in a multi-site context implicitly communicates to the congregation. Does this technology lead to a sense of cohesiveness (We're all in this together even though we worship a different sites.)? Or, does the use of video further the separation between the "professional" and the "regular" Christians?

My biggest concern about using video during a church service is that it seems to communicate that church is mostly about consuming rather than participating.

Thanks, Bob. Good thoughts. I just read Shane Hipps "The Hidden Power of Electronic Culture" in which he argues that the old paradigm "we can change the methods of presenting the gospel while we still preach the same message" is mistaken, because the media we use always have a deep impact on the things we say. It opened my eyes in many ways and I can`t think of a better example than video venues that teach our people the message of good old consumerism.

Bob, I really appreciate the heart behind this article. If we are really going to follow Jesus we must decrease and he must increase. I also recognize that some video venues are established out of arrogance, pride and self-interest. However, some are established out of prayer, Holy Spirit guidance and a clear movement of God's Kingdom. Some strategies may be better than others, but isn't the Kingdom big enough for multiple strategies? I am so excited by what you're doing and how God is blessing it. I'm just not sure if staking out a corner of the room and pointing a finger of blame/shame at the rest of the folks is the best way to make your point. Portland needs the light. Keep it up! Dave

"I can't wait to read the comments . . . I wonder what the over/under is on the comment # where someone's faith/devotion/salvation/leadership/vision/etc is questioned."

Oh, the ammo you just handed me, and yet Christ compels me to leave it.
Oh, how juicy this is.../sigh...obedience...G-d, why do I have to obey!

"The celebrity church must die."

Okay, and just by fiat this is going to happen?
I think it is easier said than done.
A "celebrity church" isn't going to die unless the people inside it say, "yep, I'm done here. Moving on!"
Which I don't see happening anytime soon, but I digress.
Celebrity churches have their uses, but I think that there are also abuses as well which are not limited to Celebrity (read: Large) churches.
I happen to like the concept of video teaching...for specific bible study courses which incorporate a lot of diverse information, from diverse sources, but also noticeably and definitely guided by the Holy Spirit, and not by the charisma of one person.
Which brings me to a very noticeable methodology of teaching today which looks like "for todays entertainment, my take on the scriptures, supported by my take on the interpretation of those same scriptures by using my own colossal intellectual prowess, and universally acclaimed knowledge on all subject matters I deem important."

And guess what, that type of teaching "style" appears not just in the "Celebrity Churches" but also in the mom and pop churches using overheads, and clear copies. So, cult of personality is not limited to the "celebrity, 33,000 member churches" it is also found in the smaller churches as well.

So, logically, if the same problem in celebrity churches exists in small churches with low tech then it's not a subjectively defined problem limited to one aspect of the church, but rather a systemic problem that is found throughout the church, writ large and small.

I think this continual railing against "mega" churches is glossing over the very real problem that is systemic throughout the American Church, regardless of size, which happens to be that us Americans are shallow, self-serving, self-absorbed twits with a very keen interest to what appeals to us, and not that which appeals to G-d.
We have most certainly lost our way.

"When you find yourself in a deep hole, and you want out of it, the first thing to do is stop digging."

Absolutely love the artice. Excellent choice of words. I've been feeling this for some time but had no way to express it. Thank you.

Dave said: "Some strategies may be better than others, but isn't the Kingdom big enough for multiple strategies? I am so excited by what you're doing and how God is blessing it. I'm just not sure if staking out a corner of the room and pointing a finger of blame/shame at the rest of the folks is the best way to make your point. "
Totally- i hope that isn't how I come across. I don't think Video Venues are wrong- I just think that long-term, they are unhealthy for us. An over-reliance on them will have serious consequences for the Church down the road.
I have no doubt that many are established with prayer and seeking God's guidance- but that doesn't guarantee that what we are doing is best.
I don't intend to make the best the enemy of the good- but in this case- the best (in my estimation) is actually easier, cheaper and more healthy for the church as a whole.

Yes, we are the church on a pub crawl.

i've gotten kicked out of a lot of bars, too, but never wrote any articles about it...

as for this article ... well said.

sheerahkahn, i think i'm in a little disagreement with you here. i believe bob would agree with most of what you said. i think there's a natural - and beneficial - affinity for the pastor in any church. i think the 'celebrity' piece applies to both prominent pastors as well as their churches - saddleback is a brand, willow creek is a brand, whatever that guy in oregon we beat on all the time named his church - that's a brand. perhaps bob is astute in noting that the 'planting' of video churches has a lot to do with minimizing cost and the likelihood of failure; capitalizing on a brand in 21st century America is just good marketing practice.

which automatically makes it a questionable approach...

wish i was in portland to see this interactive approach to church in action.

so who's the guy wearing the tie in the pic?...

Bob,
Thank you, for saying what needs to be said. Unfortunately many in our nation today view the Gospel as a way to get rich, get famous, and get a following; they peddle the Gospel as means to an end. But they are many others unknown to us but known and remembered by our Lord Jesus, who preaches the Gospel out of love and service to our Lord Jesus. Who love people and have no affection for money, power, or affluence, who at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ will receive their reward, a reward that will last for ever!
So what will I do with those who misuse the Gospel for their own selfish ends? I will thank God that the Gospel is preached weather out of selfish ambition or out of love people hear the message of Christ and are saved. Of course we would all like the preaching to be out of love.

Following Jesus Ministries,
Keith Bufford

I like what you guys are doing and it motivates me to do some in my own ministry!

I really love Bob's thinking here - and to me is something we have to be seriously thinking about. One comment said pastors want to develop a following and use the gospel for their own means - and in all the well known video venues, I have never, ever sensed that. I believe video venues are pastors and churches who desire to see more people reached with the gospel. That is what I always, always pick up from video venue leaders that I have met. So I don't think it is about becoming celebrity at all, but a passionate strategy at seeing more people know Jesus.

However---- Bob raises some excellent points about video venues. As Shane raised in his book, how does or doesn't the medium change the message? How does the medium of video venues subtly redefine what "church" is? What "pastors" are? What "community" is? etc. It is early to possibly tell until we have a generation raised in a video-venue context for their "church" experience. But those type of questions are the ones I personally have I love that Bob rasied and his heart of how he did it.

I was totally thrilled reading the article about what is happening through Newsong Chuch in the latest Leadership Journal article "On The Verge" with the "verges" and as I read that, it rang so true in my personal thinking and heart. I am wondering if that will be the new video-venue approach which mixes the advantages of a megachurch yet also has the ability to remain smaller and reproduce. I hope we hear a lot more about the approach Dave G. and Newsong are taking and follow what is happening there. If you haven't read the article in Leadership Journal, you really must - as it is an important thing to hear about, in particular coming from Dave G. and his background, experience in very large churches and context.

Bob, thanks for succinctly and pointedly speaking a sane and thoughtufl word to an all too often muddled church in America grasping for relevance.

I think you are just scratching the surface. While I appreciate your candor of not wanting to make a sweeping pronouncement that video venues are wrong. I think your logic must say that they are wrong. What you don't touch on is that churches that see growth as bigger buildings, budgets, and more venues have an eccelsiology that is skewed by its being modeled after the world.

While we don't have a Constantinian driven church anymore we do have a market driven one which begs the question: who presumed the message of Jesus is only by spoken word? The gospel after all says the word became "flesh" and "dwelt" among us.

Thank you. You crystallized my thoughts perfectly, across the board. And you did it without arrogance. There's much on this blog that challenges me; your post moved me and humbled me.

Some really great comments and a good post. However I want to ask three questions (I am the preacher in our church so take this with a pinch of salt)

1. Jesus spoke to large crowds in fact larger than many mega-churches, how do we fit that into the post-modern paradigm of the church must be small and intimate?

2. Peter addressed large crowds in Acts 2. Same question?

3. I recently was on leave and asked the elders to fill in with preaching for the 5 sundays. Most were acceptable and but one or two where absolutely shocking..not all elders are going to be gifted for up front public ministry. They have leadership abilities, and are passionate workers for Jesus, but preaching - nope they just aint got it...how does that fit in here?

Final comment: I agree though that celebrity based ministry where one person rules and reigns and where that person is not Jesus - then we have a problem!

I think this is a great article, and agree strongly with Bob's ideas. I think small, neighborhood churches are a much better way to serve the body and reach the lost. On the other hand- I had the opportunity to visit Willow Creek this past weekend (on vacation from Florida)and can say confidently that the Spirit is present and working strongly in that vast place.

God works as He will...

Video venues... isn't this like watching a television preacher? Haven't we had this for years?

Brent- Good questions.
I didn't say anything about large evangelistic events...
I think there's a place to speak to large crowds. You are correct- Jesus did it, Peter did it...

But the question is- when those 3,000 were brought alive by the Gospel (an echo back to the 3,000 that were killed by sin and the law at Sinai), what came next? Did they continue to meet in a large group? Or did they meet together in smaller groups (in houses) and medium groups (at the Temple)- and most importantly, how were they taught?

We don't have the answers to all those questions- but one thing we can say- it's not wrong to give the Gospel to large groups of people- the issue is whether it's best to continue to try to nourish them in that context throughout their Christian lives. (and yeah- I recognize we also have homegroups and such...)

On elders teaching... here's my thing. One of the requirements of an elder is that they be "able to teach." To me, this is an absolute must- not that they be able to wow a crowd and PREACH IT! like it's never been preached- but I'd say that someone who can't lead a group of Christians through a passage of Scripture and teach it to them, but still has passion and leadership gifts, is probably more of a deacon...

Again- I don't believe the mega church and video venues are wrong- as the next commenter noted- God uses both- my overall concern is what's going to be most healthy, long term for the church.
I recognize others see it differently too! (Where's Mr. Surrat??? :) )- but I felt like someone had to try to make this case...

What caught my eye was Mr. Hyatt's, "the celebrity church must die." Sorry, when I read that I had a flashback to Office Space when the three protangonists, with the rap music "Gangsta" playing, going to town on the fax machine in frustrated angst on all things mechanical.
The celebrity church is just a symptom of our video culture...and Mr. Hyatt's desire to play Brutus to the Celebrity Churches Ceasar is, imo, the same as standing in from of a tsunami with hand out stretch, Moses style, and nothing is happening but the inevitability of the laws of physics applying an enormous amount of kinetic energy over a very, very small protest.
So, my position is that yes, I think Mr. Hyatt is keeping warmth and depth of humanity in his services, but he should also recognize that the celebrity/video culture...is a very real, and when used correctly (read: appropriately), can be useful to reinforce a message of his, or any teacher.
Anyway, I was focusing on what I thought was a lynch pin issue that could be...exhausting and frustrating when his emotional efforts could be spent on more manageable issues.

brent - does every detail in the NT have to become normative and prescriptive for churches? have people dropped dead in your congregation for lying?

plus, your elders who didn't do so well: have they preached before? in seminary, as you probably are well aware, they TEACH preaching. they don't ask, ok, who in here has the GIFT of preaching? you all get As - the rest of you, try hospitality. or discernment. sorry, the tongues class is full.

like any other skill - yes, skill, not necessarily "gift" - it needs to be taught to, and practiced by, the individual.

Great article. I agree that the western church has become very passive, consumer-driven, and pitifully weak in making disciples. Seems like churches are more interested in making "converts" and just don't put the effort into growing mature followers of Jesus.

However, I am very leary when any one person is determining the correct model/mode/path of The Church. I just seem to think that only God has a big enough view to really determine what is "best" for His Church.

I would rather see churches of all types and size elevate their efforts to produce solid disciples with a strong foundation in Christ.

Can't we learn from each other?

Bob, thanks for the comment on the comment. It really shows that you do like to engage. I re-read the article and I think it was the last paragraph that got you in trouble. It is clear that you're saying all video venues are "bad" and need to go. I am simply saying that our approach should be both/and not either/or. I took away from your article a sense that video venues were not biblical. I'm just not sure you made that case. I'm pretty sure this is a new wineskin issue. The mega-church will slowly fade and smaller, local, vibrant, interactive communities of faith will take their place, but the overlap period will be decades, not months. May our LORD pour out his Spirit on Portland and may the hearts of men and women there be awakened! dt

Ben (August 6th) -- I agree with you that good things are taking place at Willow, but Willow, while it is inspiration for many, is also the exception that proves the rule.

The sentiments expressed in Bob's article are slowly becoming the majority voice. Up until recently, we've heard nothing but the upside of multi-site, but slowly other voices are being heard. Yes, this has worked in some places; but perhaps they also are exceptions that prove the rule.

I've been reading much on this subject, but hadn't encountered the phrase "celebrity pastor" before. I think this nails it. Left unchecked, by the year 2025 there would only be a couple of dozen Evangelical churches left in the U.S. with all the rest being video feeds of that handful of central locations.

That ain't how this whole thing got started.

Just to come out with it, I find myself competely opposed to the "video-venue" model. Here's why: Even Jesus (the Messiah Himself) empowered others to carry out his message to the ends of the Earth! Who are we to "assume" that we are the only ones gifted enough to communicate His Truth?!!? This seems to be an issue with His HUGE Gospel colliding with our big god. Or perhaps the Gospel being strained through our own ego.

What about disciple making? Training and equipping others?!? Surely G_d can handle the growth of his Church without us!! Is G_d suprised?!? Caught unaware?!!?! May He help us with the abundance!

As a member of one of the original video venue churches, I would like to share my experience with this approach. At first, it was done of necessity to meet the needs of a growing church with limited physical resources. It worked well--we continued to grow. We had live worship teams with different styles so everyone could choose their preferred type of music. We still had small group ministry so the benefits of a small interactive setting were available. Now, after a dozen or more years of practice, we have put the technique in a box and we market it. We have seminars on how to do it in any church setting. That may be the problem--we have taken something that worked for a specific purpose and congregation and made it into the latest fad. There are some downsides to this approach. It can make church seem impersonal and create distance between the pastor and the people. It also can create celebrity status for the featured pastors. So my take on it is that it has potential to be a tool for growth, but it also has possible side effects that are destructive. Like any tool, it has limitations and cannot be used in all situations.

I wonder if the discussion is similar to the comparisons between an oligopoly and small business? I think people desire the personal interaction of the small business. But usually it's a little more costly at a small business. Are we willing to pay the price or will we settle for the cheaper product with little personal interaction? If a societies businesses were made up of all oligopolies or monopolies you would have something similar to a communist state or a two class sytem (the executives and the workers). And given the nature and tendency of man (even redeemed men still struggling with remaining sin) I'm not sure that this is what we want.

I agree with the philosophy of ministry you present, but I'm slow to throw the whole thing under the bus. The word of God is getting out there, so it can't be all bad. Besides, church format is the same wether we're doing mega, mid, mini, or video-venues, so it's hard to claim that a lot more interaction is taking place by staying away from one or the other.

Awesome article. After three years on staff at a multi-site video venue church I was struggling with the whole thing. I am not sure you can separate the role of Pastor from the responsibility of teaching the body. Service Pastors are really just Master of Ceremonies for that days video and concert. My biggest concern is that while we may ask, "Can video venues work in the church?" we should be asking, "SHOULD video venues work?" I can not think of anything less missional (which I define as men and women living out the incarnation of Jesus Christ to others - Phil. 2) than a teaching pastor not having enough time to show up and actually teach his congregation in person.

I am very glad Jesus did not do that for us...

A little late to conversation, sorry. Wondering about this statement in the article...

"For various reasons, we’re not quite ready to plant another separate community."

It seems like that would be the most giving/ least arrogant thing to do, no? Would it not exhibit the least amount of concern about the church's name being tied to something?

Not throwing stones, just wondering aloud. And writing from the weird perspective of someone in a mega-church sizewise but not at all culture wise (northwood church who has about 2,500 in attendance but has planted over 100 churches several of them within 5 miles of us).

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