Scot:
Thanks for the insights. Of course, we always had better than the Nicene Creed--it is called the New Testament. Why was a creed thought necessary? Partially because the educated Christians thought it necessary to reconcile New Testament revelation with the conventional wisdom of Greek philosophy--with the presumption of truth in favor of philosophy. If we jettisoned the creeds, confessions, articles, and other binding man-made digests of the gospel, we'd have--basic Christianity, I guess. Hmmm. Maybe unity, to boot. Maybe there's something to that New Testament!
God bless,
Chris Stinnett

I'm reluctant to correct a New Testament scholar, but John didn't ask Jesus to turn Sodom and Gomorrah into ash in a flash. (Nice line, by the way.)

God had already turned those towns to toast 1,500 years earlier. John wanted to incinerate a town in Samaria that was less than hospitable.

Right?

The real point here is whether a document that's the result of a political power play should be used in worship. WORSHIP!

When you know the story behind the Nicene Creed, virtually every liturgical phrase bleeds with politics against Arians. It reads like a polemic.

Does that draw thoughts to the greatness and sufficiency of God? Is that a tool to lead worship?

Sorry, using the Nicene Creed in worship is as distracting as using the RSV in an ESV congregation.

What--were we talking about politics in worship?

Jarrod,

You got me: "a Samaritan village" is what John wanted to nuke. Like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Yes, Constantine wanted to know what to believe about his new faith. And if in fact these Aryans were heretics then the world did need to know.

So the creed was a tool, and indirectly it was a tool of worship because it told what the majority of the church already believed which cleared the stage for worship to take place.

Chris S., what are you talking about? Who was doing all the wrestling with the nature of the Trinity? You seem rather dismissive of creeds and confessions (not to mention the history behind all of it) without cause. Rather than dismissing the work believers before us have done, you might consider how we stand on the shoulders of the brethren.

Are you implying that you would have figured out the Trinity from the NT all by yourself. (I'm skeptical, but I'll concede it's possible.) To be honest, personally I would probably have arrived to one of the many heresies that the Church has had to face down -- I'm not so bright.

I appreciate hearing that those who came up with the Nicene Creed were flawed. I'm certainly in the same boat. Thanks, Scot.

I am no expect with the history of Christianity but I do think that God, despite man's "fallenness" used the situation to form the Nicene creed. The Arians were a heretical force that the "Nicene" church continued through many years to fight. Constantine for sure stuck his nose in - but then that is expected when he declares himself & Rome Christian thus beginning the unity of church and state. However, the Holy Spirit has continued throughout the centuries to work in regular human beings and that gives me great assurance that he is still at work this day! Perhaps we need to understand this more instead of expecting writing on the wall and perfection by all within Christianity. I understand too that the Nicene creed was later formally accepted at another council.
http://otiumsanctum.com

What a sad, sad, sad commentary on what passes for a grasp of history by some evangelicals:

A rigorous theological summation against heresy is now nothing more than politics.

I would suppose you would rather have a Christ that was nothing more than a human made divine?

And if you do, then we can say without doubt that you are not a Christian.

Is that being too political to say so?

Yes, Constantine wanted to know what to believe about his new faith. And if in fact these Aryans were heretics then the world did need to know.

The real point here is whether a document that's the result of a political power play should be used in worship. WORSHIP!

In other words, you want to find an excuse to do nothing for chirst, who has done everything for you, and you are looking for a scripture to justify your ommissions.

There are a lot of environmental factors but ultimately you chose your lifestyle. As for your parents you haven't given us any information as to how you were raised, so that question would be impossible to answer.

It all depends on when the house was built as to the code. The code changes every three years; this year is one of them. The technical answer is that it probably was not out of code at the time but would now be.

I just cant stop reading this. Its so cool, so full of information that I just didnt know. Im glad to see that people are actually writing about this issue in such a smart way, showing us all different sides to it. Youre a great blogger. Please keep it up.