Death by a thousand cuts.
Interesting metaphor Mr. Bell used, and unfortunately, he is probably very accurate to describe the methodology of what was once called, Ling che.
It’s a slow, lingering, painful death.
It is the act of slicing a person all over his body, methodically removing sections of their body…piece…by…piece with a very…sharp…knife.
And so to is it with our words.
The wounds caused by the emotion behind the words can cut a person, and each cut removes a vital aspect of the individual who is the target. Hence Y’shua’s admonition that we should shut our mouths before we let our tongues wag.
The manner of Ling che was to torture, kill, humiliate, and forever impair the person in eternity. It’s a pretty horrendous way of dying, and yet we engage in it daily when we speak evil of each other. Unknowingly allowing our ignorance to harm another without so much as a thought to what we are doing.
Forgiveness…I can go along with that, but also remember that love for one another means thinking before opening ones mouth. Just because you think it’s funny, doesn’t mean the target of your humor is finding it amusing.
If in doubt, say nothing, but if you must say something say, "In the name of G-d the holy and merciful, I extend his love to you."
And let that be all that comes out of your mouth.

I may not like the trajectory of Rob's theology, but it's hard to argue with his message here. Thanks for posting it.

Mmmmm.... Chocolate covered turd

In a Neue podcast in October, Bell shared that his wife had helped him to see that by creating a church that is different from other churches he was tacitly criticizing others. He was picking a fight. I think this realization was a real turning point for him in realizing he had unconsciously or consciously "started it." I think he has felt humbled and chastened since.

Here is the link to the iTunes Neue podcast.
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=290813074

I think of Bell as an artist. He played in a rock band. Somehow understanding him that way makes him seem less threatening because I have known the ups and downs of many artists. This week he invited people on his podcast to send emails of encouragement to the church on its 10 year anniversary. I think he needs the encouragement--like we all do when times are tough.

andy

funny how this post comes so hard on the heels of scot's post about pastors as personalities... (is there an echo in here?)

unlike shane's fame in the previous post (and my comment there), my judge-not-lest-ye-be-judged judgment of rob is that his fame quite plainly appears to be something he thought should 'be grasped'...

Fame is not an easy path. And I think every pastor has some amount of fame. When I was a church planter I came to the quick realization of what "fame" really is: it's having people think they know you (because you speak with them for 30 or 40 minutes every week). Whatever level of fame someone has, there is always a dark shadow side of not really knowing those who think they know you. That's hard enough for a pastor of a few hundred people, multiply it to a church like Mars Hill and then raise it to the factor of the number of onlookers someone like Bell has (people who listen to his podcast, read his books, etc.) and the paper cut potential mushrooms.

mike rucker...
I'm curious what you mean by Rob thinking he should grasp fame. I looked for a comment from you on the Shane Claiborne post hoping that would help clarify, but didn't see one.

Skye...
thanks for sharing the post. Good to "be there" via your observations.

Mike - how have you seen Rob "grasping" his fame? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

I think it is funny that the post here and the comment by Ryan Phelps are both a little chocolate covered terd as Kenton so briliianity pointed out. Rob believes in orthodox Christianity so stop saying subversive cuts on him like "I may not like the trajectory of his theology" and just live your life or pick up a stone if you are sinless.

Good, Mike. Add another paper cut. That will help.

I usually really appreciate Mike's comments, but I would agree with Nate, ouch that one hurt!

Nor leaders, nor sheeps need more papers cutters like Mr. Ricker than they already have in their lives routines...They need grace, that wonderful one, quoted by Mr. Yancey and others that preach over and over about what love really means. Action. May we stop (it's an action!) being hypocrats and assume that sometimes we hurt the ones we think we know just because they enter in our lives to sooth our own pains (good explanation, Mr. Hall). Peace for all.

I'm commenting late on this, but there seems something subtle and maybe sinister about the thousand little paper cuts analogy. And I think, as I saw with those who went after Mike Rucker, where is there room for true critique?

I'm not talking about critiques in public forums such as a blog...bitter critique in public forum sets up battle lines and practically invites dismissal of any meaningful interaction with the critique. But Rob Bell, from the post, is talking about the critique congregants and maybe even fellow leaders. I can't imagine it is wise, and certainly not humble, to just go on "forgiving" every criticism instead of taking it seriously. Leaders are flawed...leaders do need to grow. And certain leaders, because of sin or their own personal bent, do suffer from being "fluff and irrelevance". More, close friends, those we'd like criticism to come from, very often aren't honest or unbiased enough to be a help in this area. And leaders can't afford the paralysis of total, maybe narcissistic, introspection after every criticism.

So there has to be a solution. And I know it, from a first person perspective, depends on the Holy Spirit. But what about we who have to submit to pastors who have very real, perhaps fatal, flaws with love and truth...and how do we handle the vast number of leaders who have claimed to be "led by the Spirit" but abandoned wisdom and God's Word? Leaders are hit by a lot of flaming arrows...so they do need to forgive. But can we so quickly reject rebuking and exhorting with truth in love out of an extreme wish to avoid "paper cuts"?

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get into a "Can't We All Get Along" hug-fest.

Rob Bell may consider criticism from other Christians to be "chocolate covered turds" but the Bible calls it "iron sharpening iron."

The point of his message is still true, that forgiveness is crucial. But a better appreciation of criticism is important, too. He appears to be suggesting that their criticism is unfounded (ignorant laity syndrome), rather than considering that there may be something to it.

As Christ says Himself in Rev 3:19, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline."

If this is the same Rob Bell, he has some great videos that can be used in conjunction with church services or other presentations. The ones I've seen are around 10 minutes long and are on many and varied subjects. They are very reasonably priced and you can see previews at nooma.com.

God help us ... those millions of little paper cuts add up to huge, deep wounds of pain ... which turn into bitterness which will destroy us and our ministries until we begin the long journey of forgiveness. The enemy of our souls wants us to focus on the wounds. Our Wounded Healer allows us to focus on Him. "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."

Praise Him for the shopping cart ...

Thanks for the post on Robb, I had an opportunity to have some one on one time with Robb a few years ago. No matter what you may think or have heard he is amazingly insightful and humble. He also has an amazing passion for the Lord and his people.

I was a the NPC in San Diego and heard this talk. It was a moving experience in a wonderful way. I so appreciate Rob's call to pastors to love people through forgiveness even when it is so hard to do.

Rob hit a home run with this message.

The whole conference was terrific. The 2 MC's did a great job in the general sessions and the interviews by Andy Crouch in each session were always engaging.

some whacks ... i'll whack back.

i'd say making a series of videos and looking for a worldwide audience is an appeal to celebrity. that is certainly not a focus on his local church. further, many of his books seem as intent on their shock value as on their revelation.

perhaps his error is in sometimes judging something to be a 'chocolate covered turd' when in reality it might just be 'turd covered chocolate.' and perhaps bell would do well to dig through the covering to find the truth in what's being said.

now, this isn't to say that their isn't an endless list of people in churches who smile and show support when in reality they carry knives to put in the backs of those in leadership. been there, done that, got the sliverware...

but i cannot see...
how all of you cannot see...
how ironic it is that we JUST debated pastors as personalities, only to read that all the personality pastors headed off to a convention to wear peacock feathers and say with feigned humility, 'oh - what? you mean this? really - it was the only thing i had to wear...'

re: my absent comment on shane's post. url, as he often does, chose not to print a comment of mine. perhaps it actually seemed flattering to shane, and url questioned whether or not someone had simply forged my name...

Hmmm. All I can say is I am a 30 something pastor and I'm deeply grateful for Rob's ministry. Podcasts can be a great soul feeder for a pastor, and I subscribe to several, not for sermon content, but mostly for soul care. n Rob is a generous teacher and I wish I could have heard this talk in person.

Those thousand cuts can be tough.

Or in other words, democracy and the priesthood of all believers can be tough.

The basic fundamentalism and authoritarianism of almost all evangelical leaders comes through when you can read between the lines.

I'm not sure what I think about the Rob Bell article. While I'm sure Rob hasn't been treated well by some in the evangelical community, anyone with a grasp of theology has to question Rob's teachings. My husband and I used to attend Mars HIlls. A few years later, we stepped out into full time ministry. In that time, our views of Rob's teaching have changed drastically as we have continued to follow his ministry and writing and have seen first-hand how it is impacting churches. We feel Rob himself has changed drastically over the years and this has morphed his teaching into more a jewish mystic "spirituality" than true bibilcal teaching. His views on atonement and being in the "way of Jesus"...(this phrase is ALL over the Mars Hill website), are not biblical. While inspiring many to get involved in social justice, his underlying teaching is off...which makes his teaching very dangerous and confusing.

Mars Hill really caters to people who have been burned by legalism and by biblically sound churches who don't live out their theology (knowledge without spirit). It's all about accepting people as they are ... which is wonderful ... but the tricky part here is that this "everyone come" approach"- which we SHOULD have, doesn't take it any further. It's about LOVE...right? Well...true...but how can you really say you LOVE someone if you aren't pointing them to the GOSPEL. Depravity, GRACE, repentance and regeneration .... not language used at Mars Hill, or in Rob's teaching. This is what makes Rob such a controversial pastor.

What about the problem of SIN? You can't just walk in the WAY of Jesus...Jesus IS the WAY! Subtle...yet it's there. We in the Christian faith seem to function on sweeping pendulum swings. We cannot abandon sound doctrine because we need to be more active in the world...we need BOTH.

As far as Rob's talk on forgiveness, etc...this is another hard pill for me to swallow....mainly because I feel like he hides behind the verse: "judge not lest ye be judged" (Matt. 7:1). This verse is SO often taken out of context ... I Corinthians 5:1 says- 13 God judges [2] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”...There IS a place to hold influential pastors and leaders to biblical standards. It's NOT correct to attack someone's character, etc., but the bible clearly states that we need to be watchful for false teaching. If not, we would be sheep without protection...Satan roams like a "roaring lion"... we need to admonish and protect the flock. I don't condone hate mail, death threats, slander (and I have no DOUBT that he's received these things...)...but truly...why can't Rob respond to some of the more respectable leaders who have taught against his teaching? I have yet to see a willingness on his part to explain himself. It seems like he is playing this meek, white flag card. This of course demonizes anyone who has true spiritual concern for his teaching and for those who eat up every word. All the critics are made out to be unaccepting jerks who may be suffering from jealousy, or a multitude of other problems...there's actually quite an arrogance about it if you have actually been involved with the church such as we have. There's this whole, "beware of the Wolves" thing Rob has going...which I find ironic, since many would paint Rob himself as a potential wolf himself..

Also, his prescription of Naming, Accepting, and Absorbing doesn't set well either. While there will be times when we have to "absorb" in a sense of turning the other cheek, I fear that he is using valid admonshing concern about his teaching and twisting it into an argument in an attept to prove that he's not the one with the problem...everyone else has the problem.

If we are in community with people who have offended us, we can't just absorb ... we need to confront it and take steps to work through it by the grace of GOd. If we are criticized by people across the county that we've never met, this is a different scenario... Though I recognize how it must hurt for people in leadership positions, we can't just make a blanket statement that all hurt must be simply absorbed....

Again, like much of Rob's teaching, this article only confirms to me that it is full of truth ... and half truth....
but even one drop of poison ruins the drink .... we must stop the slanderous bashing....but we truly should also pray for biblically discerning minds. Our world needs the TRUE GOSPEL, and we pray that we can unite to preach this message everywhere.

Man, I love Rob Bell, as a brother, the more I hear about him and experience his teaching. I am scared for the church in that we are acting like the pharasies, and the Jews of the O.T. asking the Deciples to explain things and Jesus says "Hey you have questions? ASK ME!" Lets pat this pastor on the back and thank him for not going along with the academic chruch and standing for God's church! More unity and less division!

Andy .... You say ....

"He appears to be suggesting that their criticism is unfounded (ignorant laity syndrome), rather than considering that there may be something to it."

Some other comments offer a similar point.

If you can - listen to the message - Rob does not do this - For some reason you are making an inaccurate and negative assumption. In this talk Rob was very respectful and honoring of the critics and affirmed the need to be humble and teachable while recognizing sometimes we all need to hear hard things.

Mr. Bell's main point on forgiveness as essentially a lifestyle for believers is true.

That however does not mean that we fail to be discerning. Mr. Bell's theology is a case in point. Error ( possibly heresy ) such as his, does not get swept under the rug just because we are to be forgiving.

When he repents of his error(s) and changes what he teaches to bring it back into conformity with scripture, then there will be forgiveness and acceptance. Until then I must protect the sheep that God has placed in my charge.

Respectfully,

Appreciate the review of Rob Bell's presentation and I appreciate Bell's many gifts to the Christian community.
I would offer additional thinking on the forgiveness process within the whole of promoting maturity amoung the followers of Jesus. He references Tim Keller and talks about absorbing the pain. The extension of this could also promote lower functioing in relatiosnhip and extend the opportunity for operating with lower maturity on the part of all involved.
Instead of absorbing the pain can one learn to manage self in the midst of pain and thoughtfully engage in a dialogue with the other person(s). Matthew 18 encourages dialogue not absorption in dealing with difficult situations.

I was privileged to be at the Pastor's Conference and hear Rob in person. I appreciated Rob's ability to identify with us, something many speakers overlook. I also find it interesting how many here criticize both the man and the message without having heard him themselves. Why is it that rather than wondering whether as a result of Rob's challenge we too could offer a major dose of forgiveness to others who have hurt us, so many instead find something else to trash the messenger with? Perhaps the log in our own eye is bigger than we thought.

Lots of truth here. Leading at any level is going to bring critique. The challenge is to remember that when they think we can walk on water, we probably can't and when they think we are the devil, we probably aren't.

Jesus taught that He is the way, the truth and the life. He also entered the ministry with these first words "Repent! for the Kingdom of God is at hand." Then He ended His ministry with these words, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing." You cannot teach about forgiveness until you first teach repentance. If we are people who "rush to forgive" then we must also be people who "run to repentance"...that's what a LOVE collision is all about. Truth will reign over deception/heresy/false teaching...but it will take "repentance and forgiveness" to be a winning combination of reconciliation which brings unity. May we all "run to repentance" first, then "rush to forgive" when someone sins against us. Leaders and teachers will be held more accountable than the sheep...therefore we must take a tougher look at ourselves. May a thousand paper cuts create "more of Jesus and less of me" so that I am testimony of the Gospel no matter what...no matter what.

Interesting comments everyone!

I have observed that many churches have suggestion boxes, but not "systems" that give people a chance to voice their concerns, suggestions for improvement or new ideas. What may seem like criticism is sometimes just a suggestion. And yes I understand that some suggestions come dressed as "Trojan horses."

As most people already know, a well-managed suggestion system helps to facilitate needed conversations throughout the staff and congregation, track suggestions, recognize contributors, and set up archive files to create a suggestion database for the future. I volunteered to create and help maintain a "suggestion system" at my church as a way to "listen" to the congregation, but the leadership said they didn't need it. They had too many things on their plates to embrace new ideas and didn't want to overwhelm the staff with additional information.

What to do? I'm not sure, but I keep praying about it and keeping my ideas in a private someday maybe file. Criticisms hurt and I think suggestions do too. I do see the pain that many leaders go through because they have plenty of band aids in their office for paper cuts and candy boxes for their uneaten chocolate turds.

Because I know Rob...I know he has a tender heart and has expressed a shepherd's kindnesses to we who listen...and that is a gift.

I agree with Andy when he describes Rob as an artist...that to me was a remarkably insightful post. Thanks Andy

I just say "Amen" to Gary's comment a few posts above.

This should be interesting to write on , but, I'll with-hold from writing too much since the last commments made conviently thwarted off by blog' owner; his sight into a disappearances and a non-recognizing event which presnts a lie instead. I would suggest that there needs to be more honesty here of full orderedness...and not half way attempts if someones has been injured by a church--"the divisions" of the church are already addressed, and have been readily witnessed by many withinin their own congregations... or better yet, their other failing sisters churches-with lingering amounts of individuals captioned within their doors...being a member of "a sort of sytle Chrsitian organization" I look at it directly as if we can't be honest with intergrity-greatly as leaders of a churches organization ....than, its NOT a division matter perse'--its one of self-endulgences -distruction , neglect, cover-up, and a definate stance of lies on these...they are not qualifed, nor ordained (a few good men maybe) in the least-out of character....not being accountalbe or held to be....Secrets Meetings behind closed doors-with the everlasting affects ending in devistation for many. Example: a Children's Pastoral Leader from years ago I witnessed, my nieghbor, took his life for sinning against another child. Best we start looking at the full picture perhaps of things...not the 1/2 way attempts with hiding severity of abuses, and the situation that had truly happened. We all suffer than; as God , Himself is disgraced and sad---"Division isn't even remotely the word"...."Evil to its fullest of forms a better used defintion and purpose. Full stories work better before God--not half attempts later to be a disgrace to many, especially in the eyes of God!! "Rahab"

Now......if this gets erased again like last weekends.....not sure that i really care in the least anymore....another decesption on its way....heading no where in the least...nor in hte eyes of God-either
A waste to even write of this.....so be it!

Just a quick observation, that it seems as though everyone who attended NPC and saw this in person was moved by what Bell said and how he said it. I was there, and in no way did I take what he said to mean that we should not take our critics or detracters seriously. To the contrary, in fact. But he was saying we must embody forgiveness to be able to continue to live and serve in ministry. That entire 2nd day at NPC was moving and healing for me and hundreds of other pastors, and fed my soul in ways I had not experienced in some time. I thank God for Rob and his part in that. Quite frankly, we need more examples of leaders who are concerned less with doctrines per se and more with the heart of the Truth toward which doctrines are supposed to point.

Blessed by God's hand that was clearly on Rob Bell that day in San Diego...

Let him who is without heresy cast the first stone.

So, a number of you have significant problems with Rob Bell's theology. That's fine. The problem is when you assume that this talk by Rob was a carefully calculated attempt to dismiss or ignore his critics, and not, as it was reported, an attempt to help pastors. Who are you to judge his heart, his character? Leave that to God.

The rancor and ugliness of those comments here demonstrate exactly the kind of "paper cuts" that Bell himself is talking about. I've received them, and I can't say I've done a very good job forgiving. But there is a HUGE difference between loving critique (iron sharpening iron) and the subversive and hurtful comments that eat away at us.

In an accountability group I was in, we had this guideline: 90% of your comments should be questions or encouragement. The people in my life who do that can offer criticism because I know their critique is offered in love. The others, I have to forgive the hurt they've caused before I can ever receive the wisdom God has for me. That's a hard thing to do, but one I'm glad someone is calling us toward.

Many of the above comments embody what's wrong with the American church today, and why there is so much useless (non core scripture doctine related) division within and between.

Criticism for Rob is being handed out by those who were not there to hear the whole message. Many read a short summary and break it down, critiquing everthing, and hand out criticism based upon inadequate knowledge.

It's important to remember who his audience was, why they were there, and why a message like this may have been needed. I have past church experiences that would make the needles fall out of a porcupine. Half were caused by poor leaderhsip that had no checks, and half were caused by members of the congregation that had no respect for the leader God has put in front of them.

So, as far as the topic of forgiveness verses constructive criticism, we need both. Forgiveness for the masses who criticize out of ignorance and contructive criticism for our ignorance.

As a side note, I live in Grand Rapids and have attended Mars Hill, and am fairly familiar with Rob's teachings. From a Christian orthodox view, Rob and Mars Hill have taken an unfair beating. Some criticism has probably been meritted, but we have in Grand Rapids a number of conservative groups that don't want to allow people to ask questions about why we believe what we believe and why we follow who we follow. Rob's big focus in teaching is to get his listeners to engage Christ at a deeper level, to come to realize that Jesus is the only answer for our sin and our wounds from life, and then to turn around and instead of talking about theology, make it a living theology. Do they push the envelope someitmes? Maybe, but I would rather have a church body trying new and "radical" things to engage the body of Christ in following Jesus through relevant Christian living, than to talk about it and live in the very exclusive, self-serving way I see many churches not only in Grand Rapids, but across America.

Related to the comment above, not only across America, but throughout the nations! I'm writing from Brazil and I've heard about Rob Bell through a friend that agreed with his teachings in part. Intrigued, I heard him and hearing Mr. Bell was (and still is) delivering. Just because I've felt the Holy Spirit bringing his peace in a moment I needed it most. I attend at an orthodox church (and it's good!), based on biblical techings but we never, ever, can say that a controversial person like Bell cannot bring us some answers, that he cannot be used by God as well. And he used biblical truthes indeed!! Don't underesteem others that talk differently from your "boxes" talking!
I've followed every preacher i've discovered with my Bible opened at hand and so my heart, my eyes and my mind! God gave me (and to us) intelligence through the Spirit (discernment) to know between the good and the evil and capability to choose one of them (free will; you know what I'm talking about, for God's sake!). And more: it depends on Holy Spirit's to show us His Calling, for His sheeps listen to it, recognizing His voice. If there's any bad teaching on Bell's words (and i know there is some that may confuse some children on faith -- but beware the ones who are stand up for not to fall down) we have biblical authority to refute and refuse it without despising the person, for we are tought to retain everything is good after hear it. I've retained everything is good and not confusing from this pastor and by the Spirit's discernment so I've done it at my local pastor's preaching too. No one is missed to be analysed by people. Even me, in my church work as a conductor choir. I am also a leader of a small flock and i'm awared that I can be analysed too.
So, I agree that papers cut. I've cut and been cut. It's human. But my life is poured with God's grace so I can ministrate it through forgiveness no matter how much it costs or how long it takes. So, to forgive IS important! I have to eat salt with my brother in our way till we achieve forgiveness and its peace both. And absorb it is a hard task, I know! But it must happens! It's our duty to pursue this goal among many others Jesus advised us to go over.
Enough of "logies" and "sofies"! Let's live what was given us to live, the simple Gospel of God! It's written on the Bible, have you read it today?
Live in Peace! (that one quoted in Galatians, that also goes beyond our limited understanding...)

I needed to read this message (and apply it).

I think that's where we need to start - rather than looking for a way to discredit the messenger.

Truth hurts. Truth heals.

Caution: pride & jealousy can blind us of our own unforgiveness. Look inside before looking at anyone else.

peace.

When I listen to Rob Bell speak I feel like I want to go to church again. Then I come here and read all the self serving and ignorant judgementalism being cleverly passed off as "iron sharpening iron" and then I remember why I stopped going to church in the first place. So.... Thanks to all you Rob Bell critics! You have reminded me once again why I shouldn't waste my time or my tithes on you or your so-called churches.

Go away from hurting people.....oh, and you have written much , just in a psychosis type/Search file of editorial damaging style of evil and hypocrisy and huge.....huge....huge lies....

Sad. End of friendship besides.....

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend".

Perhaps Rob Bell needs to consider why he's receiving so many "paper cuts". Most criticism toward him is not being inflicted by enemies, it's being inflicted by fellow Christians who are alarmed at his unscriptural approach to Christianity. Perhaps Mr. Bell nees to humble himself and consider the reason for the wounding.... if he would repent and quit undermining Sola Scriptura, Virgin Birth, and other crucial Christian doctrines, he would find healing instead of wounding.

I read a book a few years ago, and several times since, where it encourages christians to dialogue and learn from each other. It encouraged Christians to avoid taking an arrogant stance claiming that their interpretation of scripture was superior to all others. This is hard, and I find it difficult for myself.

But I desperately want to be heard as well. My understanding of scripture is the is different than some of the above who claim that they completely understand what the Bible says. I take my faith very seriously and I am always trying to deepen my understanding what the Bible says. My understanding is different that some of the bloggers I read above, and I don't feel as if they would give me an iota of consideration if I were to sit down with them and talk about how I read this very wonderful and comlex thing we call scripture.

Oh, that book I read that encouraged dialogue...Velvet Elvis, by Rob Bell.