Like anything, it can be abused (alcohol).

Our Lord made about a hundred and eighty gallons of the finest wine they'd ever had, at Cana.

They called Him a drunkard and a glutton.

"All things are lawful for the Christian."

But St.Paul remids us that all things are not profitable.

I can drink and never have to worry about overdoing it.

But ice cream is another story.

Piper is often too black and white when in reality God has all colors.

What he's saying is akin to the following:

1. My wife and I don't have sex because our culture is abusing it.

2. We don't eat food because so many people are obese in America.

3. Computers are evil because they are used for things like porn.

4. We refuse to use money because people are greedy.

Come on...really folks!

Jesus' first ministry miracle was turning water into wine. They drank back then...They got drunk back then. Still, Jesus, the rebel-rouser, made water into wine.

God made creation, and it was good...even the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...It was the action of disobedience that was bad.

Alcohol, and anything, is bad when it is abused or used in ways that harm self, others, or lead to other behaviors that do.

A somewhat prominent Baptist leader who is a tad on the heavy side said he knew he was at a Baptist pastor’s conference when he was the skinniest person there. All of course would think taking a sip of wine even at communion would compromise there sanctification and witness. When one hears “so-called liberty in Christ” one ought to begin looking for a legalist nearby. Interesting the reformed guys disagree. Perhaps Baptist Piper is free to boycott the demon drink and independent Driscoll is free to partake in Puritan sanctioned beer.

I think Andy Stanley has said it great recently, when he talks about "margin." Instead of going right up to the line of "Is this a sin," or "I'm not sinning yet, am I?" we need to ask ourselves, in light of who I/we are, where I/we've been, and what I/we've been through ... what is the WISE thing to do. Listen to your spirit/conscience, and I think you'll have your answer. Just because it's not a sin, doesn't make it the right/wise/proper thing to do.

But doesn't the claim "it's not right/wise/proper" really just function as a more subtler way of marginalizing someone who doesn't agree with you or has a different personal conviction than you?

I've seen it happen before.

As ministry leaders, we model what a godly lifestyle looks like. Over the years, I have talked with a number of people who've been greatly impacted by neglect and abuse. More often than not, alcohol played a major role.

These wounded brothers and sisters have had very few models of integrity, character, and godliness along the way. Their lives are complex. Their boundaries are weak. They struggle with many questions on simple day-to-day choices and behavior that might be a "no brainer" for the one sitting in the next chair. Answers are not always easy or "black or white."

I've yet to talk with someone who shares with me the blessing that alcohol has been to them. The question isn't really about me. It's "how can I best honor Christ as I interact with those in my world?"

As a pastoral counselor and co-founder of a Celebrate Recovery ministry, I'd be inclined to lean toward a simple, "no, thank you." These precious ones that I love and minister to are watching me. I'm not going to do anything that would bring more confusion and uncertainty into their lives.

It seems we would like to take a complex topic and make it simple. Comparing the effects of alcoholism to the use of a computer is disingenuous. And yet John Piper's stance seems to lack subtlety in trying to address such a difficult issue.
There are some of us who cannot tolerate alcohol. I have been clean and sober for 23 years and I know I cannot have any alcohol. I have alcoholics scattered throughout my family over the last three generations. Whether it is genetic, a "Biblical curse", or environmental, my family has a problem with alcohol and its effects. As my children have approached drinking age, I have consistently warned them of their genetics. I have not told them alcohol is a sin or that they cannot drink once they have reached legal age. I have warned them that it probably will not be a good idea for them to drink with the obvious issues in their family of origin. For me and my family, the issue of alcohol use and abuse is best answered by open discussion of the risks inherent in alcohol consumption. I think this same type of open discussion, without the name-calling and sarcasm, would be ideal for our churches as well.

"... what is the WISE thing to do. Listen to your spirit/conscience, and I think you'll have your answer. Just because it's not a sin, doesn't make it the right/wise/proper thing to do."

Right.

If there is such a thing as a "Christian ethic"...it ought be "do no harm"

What many of these well-meaning Christians do not get, is that sin isn't like a piece of dog stuff that we step into and out of...but it is OUR CONDITION.
The dog stuff is always stuck to our shoe. It may not be a very big piece of it...but it is always there.

Just for the sake of argument, I'm wondering how these words from Paul relate to this conversation:

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?...Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Colossians 2:20-23)

There is a strong tension between the 'christian liberty' and 'weaker brother' concepts. The one that errs in favor of the 'weaker brother' shouldn't tell the 'christian liberty' person they are sinning. And the 'christian liberty' person needs to be careful not to do the same. The issue is that this is exactly what we are BEST at! Telling other people what they should or should not be doing. Piper isn't saying that you sin if you don't do what he does, he gives his reasons for his choice.

Nathan ~ Something in your post about "marginalizing someone" leads me to think we might be trying to put a guilt trip on others. No, not the case at all. Ask yourself these questions when you're alone, and I think you'll have the answer as to what is the RIGHT/WISE thing to do. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks of you.

Linda ~ And great point about ministry leaders modeling Godly lifestyle. We should be better role models than world.

I don't at all have a problem with tee-totaling, since I saw the effects of alcoholism up close--in my dad, who took his last drink when I was 8. The problem comes when we make it a Biblical mandate that the Bible in fact does not make it. I do think a case can be made for abstinence as wise behavior, but I'm leery of painting believers who imbibe moderately (TRULY moderately) as sinners. When we speak as if the Bible commands abstinence, our integrity will be called into question. When we encourage abstinence as a way to serve the former alcoholics in our pews, no one will question our love.

As a Pastor in a church filled with people in recovery, I wrestle with the issue. Drink is not a problem for me, french fries are. With my health concerns, a glass of wine every couple days might do me good. "But first not to offend" comes to mind. The closing sentences of Steve's comment seem to speak the truth as written in scripture.

Mark Driscoll has a rather interesting perspective on the whole issue of rethinking drinking, which should open our eyes to the whole matter. First of all, in his book,"The Radical Reformission," he says he was convicted that abstinence from alcohol is a sin. As a result, "IN REPENTENCE" he said, he drank a hard cider over lunch.Then he had another carnal idea on the whole matter stating, "I personally long for a return to the glory days of Christian pubs where God's men gather to drink beer and talk theology." But, that was not enough....THEN, in Driscoll style, he takes the idea even further coming up with possible brand names for your brews....names such as Allelulia Ale and "Lucifer's Light." Hmmm
I bet Lucifer will agree and think Driscoll's idea is a great one.

Steve,

The answer when I'm alone is that I'm free to enjoy a beer. If I'm with a person who has addiction issues, I refrain out of love.

But that doesn't mean I'm not being "godly" or not being better than the world.

I just don't think this is as big of a deal in the larger picture as people need it to be.

Phil, Im with you. I have whole generations where alcohol has and is still destroying my family. I wont let anyone drink in my house or around my kids. I am concerned about the genetic connection as well.

yet I never went as far down the road as you did, by God's grace, therefore, I have no temptation of drinking. Yet I am still very clear about not partaking in it.

I must admit, I wonder about the Catholic Church's stance. Every carnival I have seen them put on is not a dry one.

I'd like to hear from some of those "weaker brothers and sisters." Does NOT seeing someone drink help you? Or is it a non-issue?
Perhaps it's like praying in restaurants. It makes the prayer feel like he has done something to impress the other patrons with how wonderful his religion must be, while all along they're thinking what a prig he is.

From my perspective, early in my recovery it was difficult to be around people drinking and it certainly could have made recovery difficult had I been in a situation where lots of people were drinking. Of course, the choice is mine whether I want to be around those types of people or not. By God's grace, I was surrounded by good people working good AA programs and solid Christians that helped me in my recovery. The bottom line is that my recovery is mine and I am responsible for my choices, so ultimately, the decision to drink or not is my own. God supplies the power if I will plug into it. By His grace I have been clean and sober over 22 years.

I attended a very conservative Baptist seminary, and was convicted of my own problems with drinking. My husband was not able to stop, however, and ended with a heart problem. We separated ourselves from former friends, with whom we drank, (I separated us)out of fear that he start again or die (had to have surgery).

When I found I was encountering church leadership who drank I was shocked at first. I am mainly interested in protecting my husband (whether he likes it or not!). Our friends will respect our wishes, and the ones who do not, I suppose, are not true friends. I suppose I could ease up on this, because I believe the Bible is full of wine and teaches responsible consumption. For me, I have had more than my fair share already.

This is killing my Mom literally, and she is powerless to stop it. For me personally, I have been a beer a month or so kind of guy lately, well given what this is doing to my family, a boycott may indeed be in order.

Wow.....the fact that this is even being discussed concerns me. The church approving of it's congregation drinking alcohol? Come on wake up people. If we look in the Old Testament at Proverbs......we see more about "not"drinking strong drink or wine than we do "for" drinking it in the New Testament. Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. - Proverbs 20:1
NOT WISE....what part of "not wise" don't we get.

If we are partaking in alcohol......how can we sincerely minister to someone who has an alcohol addiction? Wouldn't that nullify our testamony? How can we tell the world about Jesus and how he has changed our lives and yet we continue to do what the world does. I'm concerned.....because we are truly in a day and age were "evil" is called "good" and "good" is called "evil". Forgive me if I sound "super spiritual"...that is not my intent....but when the Lord comes back for me, I don't want to be "buzzin". Just my humble opinion...and I thank you for allowing me to give my humble opinion.

Let's take a different approach to this issue. I've sometimes wondered what would have happened if Jesus had been incarnated today in stead of when he came. What choices did they have in Jesus' day besides wine? Only water? There certainly wouldn't have been enough milk to serve at a Cana wedding. Today we have non-alcoholic wine and even non-alcoholic beer and hundreds of other types of delicious liquids - all kinds of juices and soft drinks. Would Jesus turn water into alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic wine today? Or,would he turn it into cranberry juice?

And with this discussion, the Temptor coyly says ... "Gotcha!!!"

To people like IC Rhoads, I would like to say that reverting to comments about the devil is a manipulative tact that doesn't help resolve the issue and also seems spiritually arrogant. Incidentally, I wonder if the arrogance with which some post their opinions is more of a problem than the alcohol we discuss. If you look at the results of the pastors' survey, and the tone of this conversation (not to mention the Scriptures that support each side), it seems obvious that conversation is needed. The way we handle the conversation is, I believe, as important as the conversation itself. I am often reminded in conversations like this that there are people who have differing opinions than I do who take Scripture at least as seriously as I do, love Jesus at least as much as I do, and are at least as spiritually mature as I am. When I completely disregard their opinions, in essence I say that God has spoken to me in such a clear way that anyone who differs from me is contradicting the voice of God. In other words, I would encourage more humility and listening, and try to minimize the sarcasm and arrogance.

For those who are wondering where I stand, I choose not to drink personally because of the issue of modeling, but don't think it is required absolutely by Scripture.

I have a beer every couple of weeks and enjoy it. I have friends who home brew and actually have led people to Christ through the process and the relationships that were a part of it. I also love John Piper and know that he would be the first to say I own my position for me, I suggest it as wise for you, but seek God with all your heart and mind and soul and after that it would be sin to divide over a negotiable matter.

Sorry for two consecutive posts, but I read LJ's post and think that is a good question -- what would Jesus do today. While I don't know -- a phrase that by God's grace I can say with joy more than I used to -- one cannot get past the notion throughout the Cannon that wine is not just something to quench your thirst, but actually something that if used should be welcomed for it's effects -- "God gave wine to gladden the heart of man," in moderation.

Like I said, I don't know how I feel about this -- and obviously this could be abused -- but it seems as if the bible knows that "wine" can make you drunk (bad) and can make you glad (good). And like so many things of God it creates a grey area where God invites us to seek him and his goodness above all and to enjoy all else so long as it is connected to that. Like the Augustinian idea of "love God and do whatever you want," our wanter is not what is broken, our lover is.

What a teeter-totter...??

Without taking sides, let me share what i have been able to see leading worship at a growing and thriving, bible based church.

the current pastor was offered his position a few years ago while the church was still small...he refused the position based on his successful ministry in the area of collegiate sports and college campuses.(he was not a student but rather mid-aged alumni) Through pressure and the leading of the spirit he accepted the position conditionally. the condition? that by accepting a senior pastor position in the church he would not be prone to becoming someone or something he was not. I believe the statement went something like this: "I have MGD in my frig, Cigars in the Den, and play poker once a week...if your ok with that then maybe i'm your guy!"

I am proud to say that transparency and an ability to meet people right where they are at in life, are the reasons this church has over 2000 members today and continues to grow and prosper. Our CR group is huge and continues to grow as well...Dirty little secrets, and self righteousness by NON-partakers have yet to help anyone on a real level. If anything it is more damaging to the testimony of Christ.

Paul states that "I become all things to all men that I may win ONE to Christ" I have to also believe that the very people Jesus came for were able to better relate to Him because of His ability to meet them at their level..and not only understand, but able to show TRUE compassion.

Don't get me wrong...it is not having a leader that drinks alcohol... it is having a leader that saves marriages by talking about sex from the pulpit...a leader that brings ALL things into the light talking about REAL issues like PORN and DRUGS in a real street sense...and someone you feel you can go to with anything...and that the leader in question will TRULY understand and be transparent. Just my $.02, but fruit is fruit people!!!

I'm a missionary and an MK. My Dad, a convinced tee-totaller was called to Europe just after WW2. For a period of time, there was little fruit in his ministry; people seemed offended for seemingly no reason. My dad prayed much about this, quite confused. After some time the Lord spoke to him and and told him that, while he refused their wine (often the best they had for their guest), they saw it as him refusing their hospitality and refused him room in their hearts.
"For the sake of the Gospel", and after careful re-studying Scripture on his position, Dad began to share their wine and lives.
Truth must be global - are all Christians in France/Germany/Switzerland wrong?

Very interesting discussion, but I think we're all missing the real issue. What do we ourselves blink at, and what does the church in America blink at? We look down on those who drink but don't allow ourselves to be filled with the Spirit. We look down on those who gamble, yet hold church raffles and "fund-raisers" that truly are just glorified gambling. We look down on those with weight issues, yet are do prideful that committed Christ-followers are driven away from our church, both intentionally and unintentionally. We look down on those with drug issues, yet we linger on those images on the computer that are just racy enough to get our hearts pumping. We look down on those with marital problems, yet our own marriages aren't examples of godliness and holiness.

These examples may seem far afield but I have experienced them many times in over 35 years as a Christian and when I pastored for over six years. Personally, I don't really care if a pastor or church leader drinks alcohol. The true issue is whether their heart (and ours) is pure and holy and they are striving to follow Christ with everything they are. That's it. Everything is permissible, but only if we're submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Then our choices will mostly be His.

I agree with those who are pointing out that this is not a sin/not sin issue. It clearly isn't.

I work with a para-church ministry in a college town. Our ministry is to high school and middle school kids. The majority of our leaders are college students, or college aged. We are in a very conservative town in SW Virginia, and the town doesn't exactly "love" the college. We've discussed alcohol use (as well as tobacco) at length with some of our leaders, and I have really mixed feelings about it. Part of me would love to simply enact a "policy" that said our leaders were not allowed to consume alcohol (or use tobacco) even if they were of age- clearly under-aged drinking is a black and white isssue. This would certainly eliminate a lot of risk on our part (imagine a parent of a middle schooler who sees their child's leader having a beer with dinner- the assumption goes: college student + any beer at all = getting wasted. Right or wrong, this is reality). On the other hand, we do have a responsibility to help our leaders make responsible decisions. I would much rather them be "allowed" to drink, and choose not to for the sake of their ministry.

What do you guys think??

In Proverbs 31:4,5, the kings were not to drink ANY wine "...for they will drink and forget what is decreed," (v. 5) I sometimes wonder if this has to do with the desire to be very culturally relevant in our ministries. The debates over cultural relevance are never ending. Ultimately, it is God who draws the sinner (John 6:44), not our clever dressing of the Gospel, our ministries and our example in the cultural clothes of contemporary society. I Cor. 1:17 The Good News transcends culture and does not need to be contextualized.

" Good News transcends culture and does not need to be contextualized."

Really? That statement directly contradicts the clear words of scripture, and arguably the incarnation -- the ultimate contextualization - itself.

Re Cathy's blog March 19th:
I'm with you ... I think Driscoll really crossed the line there. To attribute 'light' beer to Lucifer is to imply that those who drink 'light' are unholy versus those who choose ale.
Surely, it's the full strength drinkers who are most likely to get 'waisted'?

PS Is anyone else having trouble with Captcha?

Apologies for cutting across the discussion on contextualization. I think it's essential to the argument, along with one of the tenets of the Reformation, being that of sola scriptura.
My assumption is that most who are arguing for abstinence are conservative evangelicals (as I am).
That being the case, any doctrine, according to our rules of interpretation, must be:
a) consistent with, and supported by, the rest of Scripture, b) be cross-cultural (universally applied) and
c) timeless (ie as true for those in the early church as us).

Rom 14:1-21 lays the foundational principle of abstinence... care for your brother, ALONG WITH clear and strong warnings against judging one who partakes.
If we're to take the abstinence issue as a rule of life, then, according to 14:21, we must also be vegetarians - or at least Kosher. I would truly respect anyone who did as this would demonstrate consistency and integrity of life (as long as they also did not judge their brethren who differed).

But, how far do we take this? Is Paul laying down some new post-resurrection rules/commandments, because, according to Matt 11:19 & Lk 7:34, he compares/contrasts himself with John who neither ate meat nor drank alcohol? (NB Jesus did not refute their accusation of drinking). In this context Jesus certainly caused people to 'stumble'.

Context must surely then determine how and when we apply this principle, ensuring the motivation is love not fear; grace not law.

Our Lord state to those of His time as recorded in Matt. 11: 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
Some people you just can never please. The one we need to seek to please is our God. But let us not flaunt our liberty in Christ, but know that we are our brothers keeper. If I know then that those with me or around me oppose something that in Christ I have freedom to do, I will not do it, I am my brothers keeper.
But those who judge their brothers in the Lord by that which is not forbidden by God but by their own views and opinion, I feel sorry for. For they forget, bless are the merciful for they shall receive mercy, and as you judge so shall you be judge. We should never forget the judgment sit of Christ were we all will give an account ~ I personally do not wish to be found having added to the Word of God.

Ring! Ring!

Hello?

Hello Pastor.....this is Rose (fictious name), My son was in an accident and they don't think he is going to make it. Can you come?.....Pastor has had a poker party and his clothes and hair wreak with cigar smoke and has a couple of MGD's (not sure what they are), and has to consider if he can do it or does he have to send one of his associates. Hhhhmmmm what to do, what to do?

I know this sounds far out, but it does happen. What then? We are accountable for our actions and we are also to abstain from the very appearance of sin. Suppose this makes Rose stumble, it could surely offend. What about living Holy lives, how is this living holy? We are not perfect, but our goal is to live a life set apart from the world.

This is endless....I know..........

Even though Driscoll and Piper are at opposite ends on this issue, they still consider each other brothers and co-workers, and invite each other to speak at their conferences.

This is truly a secondary example and we will do well to follow Piper and Driscoll's example.

3 choices:

abstinence

moderation

excess

excess is obviously forbidden in scripture

moderation works for some...

i wish i could drink normally...it took me 10 years after i became a believer to realize that i could not handle it...i had to grieve the loss of what truly is a gift to those who can keep it in a proper place in their life...i miss it but after 21 years of sobriety some will say to me, "couldn't you just drink one glass of wine?" to which i say, "maybe" and that's enough for me.

i have chosen abstinence because i have experienced the havoc of out of control indulgence...

i admire those who can have one glass of wine or one beer with a meal...it's just not me.

good resource for those who struggle:

http://www.nacronline.com/

ask the Lord about it and if you have a clear conscience...enjoy, if you don't have a clear conscience Satan could be biting at your heels...

blessings to all my brothers and sisters

mark

Jesus used water. Figuratively. He used wine. Literally.

Alcohol is a central nervous system depressant. It is a downer. Alcoholism visibly breaks people. It puts them into visible crisis. Then...enters our Lord. “[He] is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.” (Ps 34:18).

No wonder “the most prominent characters in the Bible were broken, threshed, and ground into bread for the hungry”. (L.B. Cowman, “Streams in the Desert”)

Hence, unless, you sense a Nicodemus-like prospect in the offing, do not touch that bottle, for alcoholism is a genetic disorder, lest you might stir a hideous “bug” lurking in the innermost recess of your being.

Worthy topic to discuss here. It’s hard to disassociate ourselves from our American-evangelical context (not that there’s anything wrong with that), but I think considering the worldwide Church community is helpful.
Like some have already alluded to, drunkenness is condemned in Scriptures, not the consumption of alcohol. In light of the liberty described New Testament and the countless tragic stories many of us have experienced, we cannot be trite here.
Indeed some have stumbled by the alcohol use of others, while some doors have been opened by the exact opposite. I know I’ve experienced both and again, this is why we should avoid being dogmatic about this.
I think among the problems is that local congregations have been too one-sided favoring one side while demonizing the other. Conversations would be helpful here.

Drink only wine but don't get drunk. Enjoy the drink with thanksgiving to the Lord. I think there will be wine at the feast in heaven.

I think it is unwise for people in ministry to partake in alcoholic beverages. The reason is because of the jobs we do. There are wonderful blessings in the ministry. God gives us joy because He uses us. At the same time we all know that the ministry can be very rough. I am reminded of a poem I heard Harold Wilmington quote once,
"To live above with Saints we love, Oh that will be glory. But, to live below with Saints we know...well....that's another story."
All of us have experienced the tormentors in our pews who have unrealistic expectations and demands. Sometimes the church can grind us into dust if we are not careful. What happens to us during those times if we have used alcohol previously? We can be tempted to drink to soothe the pain in our own lives. It's just not the thing that pastors ought to do if they are being wise.
Now, I know pastors who are addicted to caffeine because of their non stop schedules. I say the same to them. Get off the stuff because it might kill you. Caffeine speeds up your heart rate. God loves ya and doesn't want you to die early. Anyways, that's my two cents. Blessings. Rob