great discussion

Good point at the end, there.

It's queer to me that this dialogue always happens around "wine," though. As if we are saying, "definitely, we will stand up to our Southern Baptist friends and defend wine drinking and dialogue about freedom and abstinence and Pharisaical thinking, but beer is just a little too controversial. Just a little too taboo. Wine is ok, because it's explicitly Biblical, but Christians aren't ready to consume any other 'strong drink'."

Let's be consistent. Else somebody might think we were being pretentious.

drinking is stupid.

here in the USA, there's is absolutely no reason to do it - and, we're surrounded by reasons not to do it.

"Boozing" is stupid. "Binging" is stupid.
But for me and many faithful Christians, moderate drinking is not an expression of my "freedom".

It's a perfect accompaniment to a meal.

Simple as that.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Will everyone that never speeds please stand up?

i just love how they each have their laptops on stage with them. the mac cult is still strong. lol.

I'm glad someone else notice the laptops. I thought that was funny.

I think that they were getting questions or responses texted to them during the presentation - hence the laptops, although I thought I saw a youtube video going on one of them.

You could argue over more ridiculous issues but I'm not sure how. Typical of the church to major in the minors.

well i wouldnt call it minor. i know in my congregation so many families have been affected by the abuse of alcohol, that what is a small deal is now a big one. that is why our church has a policy for leaders to not drink.

unfortunately we label people who drink alcohol as maybe loose on their convictions and we may be too judgemental at times. i personally think it is a decision left between a person and God, but I now see why some feel this small issue is a large one.

no good argument has been made to me though scripture that drinking is a sin. but the stories i hear coming from families definately gives me caution.

We look foolish when we select one thing that is being used to excess and ban its use. Why not also ban the internet, sex, food, money? Does anyone think more laws will result in less sin?

I see a minor mis-application of the "cause brother to stumble" illustration...
1 - I believe this applies to more than alcohol issue - it applies even to speeding issue - ever been passed by your pastor? makes you want to speed up to catch him, don't it...
2 - just because you can ask someone "Will this cause you to get drunk?" should not release you to drink...because often, I am in a circumstance where others can observe me and my actions, but I don't know it...and again, this applies to more than just drinking...what about yelling at your kids in public becuase you won't control your temper?
3 - it is possible to have a tradition with a biblical background - Baptists and no drinking - and hold to it...IF (and big if here) you don't begin to associate that tradition with LAW...with making it a sin...perhaps one of our biggest failings is taking what started as TRADITIONS with usually solid backgrounds, and raising them to LAWS...

I agree with Penny...we need to quit with additional LAWS and start talking, teaching, and discipling LIFE actions and attitudes...covering ALL aspects of life, to include excessive TV, over-eating, over drinking, over anythinging...and not try to make "laws" to legislate behavior...whether they be church laws or society laws...

I think their teaching it right on, and biblical. Where they are wrong is that they have a disagreement with Southern Baptist doctrine.

Although many Southern Baptists and SBC leaders have condemned alcohol and teach total abstinence, there is no such thing as an official doctrinal position for all Southern Baptists. Each SBC church is autonomous and free to believe what they want on this issue.

If there was an official SBC doctrine it would be the Baptist Faith and Message, which the majority of SBC churches and institutions ascribe to, but it does not mention alcohol and under the heading of religious liberty reads:

"God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it."

Which is consistent with what these pastors were teaching.

But what if we were talking about marijuana in a day after it is legalized? I posted this on Facebook as a response question several weeks ago, and almost as many Christians said they might try it as said it was a sin.

People would use the same arguments used here. God created the plant. Using it in moderation does not cause other people problems. No one ever got a DUI from toking up. It is legalistic and pharisaical to make a law about something that God does not explicitely condemn.

There has to be a way to solve this. Christians never really struggled much with drinking until the end of the 19th century. The reason for this was the urbanization of America. People now lived in cities and there was less social stigmata. Drunkenness became more noticeable. The church, wanting to deal with a societal problem, grabbed onto Temperance. It was a good solution.

If alcoholism continues to be rampant in America, then churches should not promote drinking. If it is less of a problem, we should loosen our stance.

This "conversation" struck me as very pretentious. The way evangelicals approach this is all backwards.

Sam--

What do you mean?

I just am pleased to see Todd being bold and publicly showing he is not using a Mac but he is using a PC Dell laptop. PC users are the new rebels not conforming to everyone else. Todd is a punk rocker!

I think this is the way to approach it. I am not oppossed to people like Piper saying they will not drink but what Piper is really saying is that no one should drink, not that it is a good thing that he does not drink.

I disagree with Leo because clearly the answer to the way he is thinking is that we should not do anything that anyone might think is wrong, even if it is actually the right thing to do for fear of causing someone to stumble.

Jesus did many things that many thought were the wrong thing to do, but he did them anyway, and he was without sin. He was called a drunk (although I am sure he was not), he talked with a woman alone (without another person present to insure that he did not violate the rule of not being alone with a woman, even though his disciples disapproved,), etc.

In college my wife often went to bars with friends and acted as a designated driver. She didn't drink, but didn't stop her non-Christian friends from drinking. In spite of the fact that she didn't drink she was approached multiple times by Christian friends that were telling her it was inappropriate to her witness to be in a bar. Some of those that were telling her this were known to frequently drink in their dorms (but it wasn't in a bar where they could be seen and cause people to stumble.)

The issue is doing what you are being called, even more than working on trying to interperate what others that you might or might not know might think of what you might do.

Where Paul talks about causing your weaker "brother" to stumble, he talks about Christian freedom, but says that it must be reigned in by whether it causes a "weaker brother" to stumble. I think that means that it is appropriate to "add" extra laws and disciplines to your 'own personal' actions to avoid such temptation for others. I believe the presentation in the video about someone seeing a pastor drinking and then going back to their table and ordering wine is a little unrealistic.
It also sounded to me like the example related to a fellow believer. I believe it comes down to the weaker brother possibly being a non-believer trying to determine if the Christian life has had an impact on the life of the "drinking Christian." American society and history do not have a positive example of spiritual edification through drinking. It does, however, have unlimited examples of alcohol causing people to make poor decisions including spiritual and life-altering mistakes. I believe that Paul is saying "if your Christian liberty comes at the price of hindering a weaker brother in the Kingdom of God, then it is no longer a Christian liberty, but a personal one that does not honor God. There are a lot of other things to drink today, as opposed to the middle east in the 1st century. Make a choice... others before yourself, Christ above all.

I do not drink alcohol for the same reason that I don't step on the tracks in front of a moving train.

Asking whether drinking is a sin is like asking whether it's a sin to play Russian Roulette with one empty chamber. There is no reason to spiritualize this issue.

If you think you can drink and handle it, you are either in denial or you simply haven't suffered the consequences that invariably accompany alcohol.

I dont drink mainly because I saw the destructive effects of alcoholism on my extended family.

One of the things that is interesting is they drank wine in Jesus' time because purified water was not always available. Study up on it and you will see that even children drank wine.

The issue is that alcohol is a lot more potent today compared to Jesus' time. This puts peoples health at risk and their decision making abilities. It dont take much to get drunk these days depending on what you are drinking and your tolerance. Add with this our culture's unofficial approval of drunkeness as a form of stress reliever and you have a potent mix. It is celebrated on TV, radio and is an official staple of college spring break.

The bottom line is that alcohol today has the potential to master you because of its potency. But I am sure there are people who do it in moderation. In this way, I dont classify it as a sin but I see it as a practice that can lead to sin. And Paul said 'I will not be mastered by anything.'

At this stage in our culture, I would not encourage anyone to drink but I am not offended when I am around friends who do as long as they are in control of their consumption.

Wine is wonderful with a good steak.

That's my input.

Lots of good comments here. Does a pastor need to refrain from something in the privacy of his home because someone outside has a problem with alcohol abuse? That seems to hold pastors to an excessively high standard. I'm not sure what Tyler meant by 'we're surrounded by reasons not to do it.' Joet made the best point about singling out one thing to focus on. The more we focus on it, the less significant it becomes, while other disastrous vices go unchecked. I wish Mike would tell us what is pretentious and backwards about this conversation. Seems pretentious for him to assume we know what he's talking about.

Matt: see my comment above on pretension. Defending only the "safe" subject of wine and not her malted brethren from the dark forces of prohibition would strike some as pretentious.

Put me in that camp.

As a recovered alcoholic (not that weekend kind, I'm talking about the "Leaving Las Vegas" kind) who has seen

Miraculous healing over this disease, I know the consequence to those who stumble.

Thanks for addressing this subject.

For me? I'd err on the side of the Pharisees! I rather be safe than sorry.

And why wouldn't anyone rather be filled with the Spirit than filled with sweet wine? It's a much better "high." It lasts a lot longer and the hangover is replaced with a supernatural strength to fight another day.

With all the ridiculous variety of beverages in this great country, you don't think you can find another "compliment" to that flamed broiled whatever that doesn't change your state of mind and hinder your good jugement? C'mon...really?

Talk to me about why AA isn't very effective.

Tyler, got it. I think I'd actually have to agree with you there.

Jon Acuff at Stuff Christians Like today reposted an old post about finding out if other Christians drink. Good stuff.

It seems to me there's going to be a great variety of opinion based on peoples' history with alcohol. If you have alcoholism in your life or family, it's going to be a lot more serious than for someone who hasn't.

Martin Luther wrote: "Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object being abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women…. Should we abolish women?"

Anything of great power can be used for great good and great wrong. Its absurd to focus on just one issue of christian freedom. Maybe we should talk about use of wealth, sex, and divorce...I don't hear too many frank, honest discussions of those subjects in the church among God's men. And they seem to be ripping the heart out of the church.

And what I've never heard a discussion on EVER is whether or not there is, maybe not an expectation, but at least a hope that weaker brothers at some point becomes stronger brothers. There are things we don't do in front of children because, frankly, they don't have the maturity act responsibly with such a dangerous/powerful thing. But there is the hope they grow up.

And surely there is a distinction between those whose faith is not strong enough to exercise freedom and those who are vulnerable to temptation. We need to discuss that distinction. For those who are vulnerable to say alcohol, its obviously unloving and reckless to offer them a drink or encourage them before (if ever) they are ready. But these people already know they are vulnerable and this self limitation is the same as for me who knows I can't fully be trusted on the internet...knowing others go on the internet is not a great temptation to me. For those who don't have strong faith (who may or may not be vulnerable to temptation as well), it is good to walk them through the issue and, as was mentioned on the video, to not force the issue until (if ever) their faith can handle exercising their freedom.

In neither case does an absolute prohibiting law help anything...it only enables those who refuse to handle the tensions and complexities that exist...the same that our Lord Jesus embodied during his earthly life.

Good discussion on an important topic.

Alcohol abuse is brutal - deadly - rampant.

Do you know people you love who have been devestated in some way by alcoholism in their life and/or in their families life?

Thought so.

My input here is simply this - it is a big deal - it impacts virtually every family you or I will even connect with.

What does this mean in terms of a personal response regarding drinking alcohol or not?

Up to you - Up to me.

But let's wrestle with this.

No one here wants to be an uptight, legalistic arrogance jerk about this with a superiority attitude if they don't drink.

No one here wants to be an irresponsible drinker who does not care about how their actions impact others.

I'm simply stating the obvious and encouraging us to keep in touch with the obvious - Alcohol abuse is everywhere - deadly - powerful.

So we should be careful with it. Let's not underestimate or deny our own vulnerability to it's grip - and be alert to how we can help others around us who struggle with this at any level.

I'll drop a G.K. Chesterton quote into this interesting discussion:

"The dipsomaniac and the abstainer are not only both mistaken, but they both make the same mistake. They both regard wine as a drug and not as a drink."

Thoughts?

Here are the real questions about Christians and alcohol: Is it a sin? Does MODERATE drinking cause a brother to stumble? Jesus/God Incarnate modeled the very PUBLIC consumption of alcohol. Scripture says he was without sin. Jesus is all-knowing - do you think He would have modeled such if He knew that moderate drinking couldn't be done appropriately? In fact, He stated,"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!" And despite the fact that of today's alcohol is stronger, it can still be consumed in moderation. And obviously, the wine of Jesus time, though weaker, was still abused to excess, and THIS is what the Bible warns against - EXCESSIVE drinking and drunkenness! If Jesus drank and did not sin - then drinking (in moderation) cannot be a sin - no matter what good Baptists think otherwise (and I grew up Baptist).

I'm not sure why nobody has said this yet:

Many people enjoy the taste of alcoholic beverages. I believe God wants us to enjoy the world he created and to craft new, enjoyable things with it. Enjoying a good brew with a good meal is an act of enjoying what God has given us. It is not a foregone conclusion that everyone who drinks will suffer negative consequences from it.

I hear two questions here:
1) Is the joy of drinking responsibly and moderately worth the risk of abuse?
2) Is the joy of drinking responsibly and moderately worth the risk of leading someone else into alcoholism or triggering painful associations they have with alcohol?

Before we too quickly answer "no, it isn't worth the risk," let's consider: does God intend us to live life avoiding taking risks? What kind of joyless, fearful life would we leave if all we did was avoid all activities that posed some kind of risk?

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5b) Jesus told some to follow him, and others to return home. We each answer to Him.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Otherwise Jesus committed sin, which we know to be false.

I don't buy the argument that the wine in the bible was really grape juice. That would be culturally inaccurate. Therefore, Jesus drank wine. Wine with alcoholic content.

Being controlled by anything other than the Spirit is sin. I think we all fail on that count. Every single day.

If GOD doesn't say that something is sinful, then no PERSON has the right to make that determination.

Abstaining from alcohol may be a wise choice. But don't elevate partaking without drunkenness to the level of sin when God doesn't do so.

For all of us who claim to take the Bible literally and then say that drinking wine, the one drink that Jesus personally endorsed, is a sin, this stance makes us sound a little weird. The Psalmist said that God gave wine to gladden the heart of man, and in those countries who as part of their culture drink wine, cardiovascular disease occurs far less even though they eat the same high fat diet that's killing us. Maybe that's what God meant when He said it would make glad the heart of man.

All things are lawful but not all things are helpful. We should not do anything that hurts ourselves or our witness. Nor should we inspire that behavior in others, or possibly hurt others with our actions. I am not the "weaker sister". There is absolutely no reason to drink alcohol or to do anytype of drugs.

God has spoken through Scripture. He says not to be drunk - so don't be.

As a Pastor, I am weary of folks complicating the Scripture as a whole. We must study and rightly divide the Word of Truth, not twist it to conform to our religious arguments.

As I pour myself a glass of Merlot, I will speak to offending my brother.

the argument has been made to view thin in context. I think there's been enough said about that. however, I will add that I don't drink with my congregation unless they have expressed that they too enjoy wine, or whatever it is they enjoy. I may offer them a glass while we visit, or coffee if I know it would offend them if I offered them wine.

If coffee offended them, sorry, they are crossing the line if they think I am going to walk some "spiritual high wire" and eliminate everything I enjoy - in "proper Christian freedom" - just so I can fit into their mold of what they think a Christian should be.

Jesus did not do this for a moment; He was and is above reproach, but people still found (and find) areas to lie, elaborate, and twist about His life in an effort to make Him look like a fake and a sinner.

I expect no less from the world and other "critical Christians" today.

Therefore, I (we must) go out of the way to live as peaceably as we can with all men so that we can faithfully proclaim the Gospel to all creation. Keep you ham sandwich behind your back when you are ministering to the legalist, and throw a Ham on the smoker when those who follow the law of freedom come over. But don't allow your freedom to cause or lead you and others to sin; be wise, be loving, and be Christlike... and do not be drunk :0)

To Kyle,
Your comments that if you think you can drink and handle it means you're in denial struck me as funny. I am a Christian, love the Lord with all my heart, and have about two martinis a week. I thoroughly enjoy them. I have been doing this for over 20 years. Never got drunk, never abused it, have never been tempted to. It's ridiculous to make a generalization like that. There are plenty of mature Christians who have an occasional drink and go their whole lives without any problems.

PS. I love the comment about Luther... that's a classic! Great post.

Do you have to drink? Are we arguing for the right or the permission? I find that we are quick to assert license rather than conscience and will fight for things that in the end have only potential for struggles. Paul's argument for protecting the weaker brother is not founded out of "I can" vs. "I can't." It was based upon how much I LOVE my brother and love the Christ that saved me from damnable doctrines.

Drink is not a problem in this country as it was in Jesus' day. Health issues did not have solutions like we have today. We are not speaking of the same context of time and substance. They had milk, water, or the product of the fruit at whatever stage it was at due to a lack of refrigeration. Come on! The only reason why we struggle with this is because we want to get the buzz and feel the tingle and experience a bit of "christianized" legalized drug usage.

Don't get drunk. How can you guarantee that? Don't drink.

As John Calvin aptly said, "We must adapt ourselves to the weak, not the stubborn." A person capable of defending their position is NOT a weaker brother. If we are going to give up everything that might offend someone...where do you draw the line? Some Christians are offended by women wearing pants. Some are offended by drums, by any version but the KJV, the list goes on ad nauseum. To avoid offending them, do we need to follow all of those rules, too?

I choose not to drink - just as I choose not to drink Mountain Dew or milk, because I don't like those drinks. It's no more spiritual or unspiritual than that. It's a CHOICE; I no more care of others drink in moderation than I care if they prefer Mountain Dew or milk when I want Diet Coke.

Drunkenness is a sin...but so are plenty of other things when used improperly. Sex outside of marriage is a sin...does that make the marriage relationship sinful? Of course not! The same is true of alcohol. We must be extremely careful that we do not forbid what Scripture does not.

This has been an issue that I have been struggling with. Just because Jesus drank wine doesn't mean that we can. First, Jesus did alot of things that we are unable to do (ie. turning water into wine). Also, wine back then was much different then wine today.

I would love to do so research on the word "drunk" in the Bible. Because I think we use today's definition when talking about how it is ok to drink as long as you are not drunk. So, if being drunk is a sin, then what we are saying is that is is ok for some people to have 3 drinks, but it is a sin for others to have 3 drinks. Shouldn't sin be the same for everyone?

I always go back to "do not cause another person to stumble" verse. I have never seen anyone lead someone to Christ while drinking. Never! Isn't God's will for us to teach others about Him? If we are not doing that with our daily actions, then we are sinning.

Why not lead someone to Christ while drinking? If I'm out to eat with a non-Christian friend enjoying a whiskey sour and talking to him about my love for Jesus and how He has changed my life, there would be no reason for that friend to be turned off. Also, to the poster who talked about only wanting to drink to get the "buzz" or "tingle", there may be some truth to that, but we also eat sugary snacks, coffee, etc. for that same "buzz" or "tingle". I think the point is that our body is God's temple and we do want to treat it healthily, so some will not eat sugar, some will not drink coffee, some will not drink alcohol. But none of those things are sin in and of themselves.

I have lived in 3 different countries, one of which is the USA (my native country). I have enjoyed a glass of wine with one of the pastors at a very promininant church. I believe this issue being an issue shows fear and ignorance on the part of most believers. It shows that culture has become a burdensome filter for how we understand the Word.

The "weaker brother/sister" bit is grossly misused. If I'm sitting across from someone 50 pounds overweight who is on a diet, I don't feel I'm doing them a disservice if I don't eat according to their diet. I applaud them for taking action appropriate for "their" life.

It's no wonder that Christianity has become a joke to the world. These petty arguments make believers look like dolts who spew diatribe over anything that doesn't fit in their box. I believe the Word says that our love for one another will draw the non-believer to God. I think loving each other is more important than making sure we each have the right boxes ticked, and condemning those who may have a different set of boxes.

The fact that this is still an issue in the American church is a sad commentary on the state of the American church.

Someone, Where is the verse(s) that indicates other forms of alcohol other than wine are permissible? At what point is one drunk: when they get a buz? A stammering tongue? When they want to lay down in the middle of the ocean? Proverbs 23:34 For many it is hard to know when to stop and then stopping! The kings of Proverbs 31:4 were not to drink wine - period - so their minds were clear as they ruled. We have numerous, tasty non-alcoholic beverages available today; not so in Jesus' time.

Strange how we hear so much about drinking, which is not listed as a sin, when nothing is ever mentioned about gluttony, which is a sin. Noticed how many obese Christians there are?

Jim

Read Galatians 2 and Col. 2:16-22 is why I take issue with those who preach total abstinence.

I truly love my brother enough to not allow him to submit to foolish rules and regulations... "do not taste, do not touch..." It is because of love that I take a stand and preach the Word of God, not man made tradition.

Paul throws a fit because of all this... are his motives out of love? Do you gain, keep, or maintain your Salvation because of work of the law that you keep or break?

NO! We are called to be free in Christ!!!

To not stand up and point out the heresy that is often involved when folk twist the Scripture in an effort to make their argument - is in fact sin itself because we are causing our brother to be sucked into the never ending black hole of legalism and works based Salvation. If we step back and stay silent when people say that "any drinking at all is sin" then we are allowing the enemy to gain a foothold on us - and potentially our brother as well.

If we submit to your theory ALove, we might as well throw justification through Christ alone out the window and say that it's worthless and not worth our time to defend.

That is why me must stand up against those who preach "all alcohol is sin"; because if we don't, we're starting down the path of legalism and making our own rules because God has not said what they claim to be Scripture.

Shame on them.

My lenten small group meets at a bar. I drink Killian's. I can't believe we're treating this like an issue most reasonable people care about.

In response to a number of you regarding Our Lord drinking grape juice or wine, let me see if I understand the Scriptures correctly ~

-- In Numbers, re the Nazarite vow, a distinction is clearly made between grape juice (unfermented) and wine (fermented). Until the late 1800s, as best as I have read of the history of our faith, Christians, regardless of 'denomination' celebrated the Eucharist, Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper, as Our Lord first celebrated it with his Apostles--wine, the fermented fruit of the grape (oinos), and bread. Welch's company was founded in the late 1800s so that some Christians did not have to drink wine
at the Lord's Supper. Grape juice instead...the leftovers being thrown down the drain of the church kitchen.

-- In John 6, Our Lord explains to three groups of people two remarkable parallels in an escalating triad.

Parallel and triad?

-- (1) ordinary bread > (2) manna for 40 years for the journey to the Promised Land > (3) Our Lord's body, the Bread of Life transformed from the one born in Bethlahem (House of Bread) for our journey to the new Promised Land (heaven). For, in Rev. 19, the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, unites the Bridegroom with his Bride, the Church.

-- (1) ordinary water > (2) turned into wine (at the most famous wedding celebration in all of Earth's history, and the bride and bridegroom are not named) > (3) wine transformed into His Blood. This remarkable daily celebration on Earth will end when the Marriage Feast of the Lamb is celebrated in Heaven. Many, reflecting on this, call this forward hope of ours the Beatific Vision. The bride and bridegroom are named -- Our Redeemer and His Church.

Three groups of people?

(1) The Jewish leaders (not the 'lay' people) accuse Our Lord of cannibalism. Our Lord, in John 6, is telling this huge crowd the true meaning of the Eucharist
before the night in the Upper Room. So it is understandable that the Jewish leaders would think he is talking about cannibalism. Because, in rejecting Him, they
were not invited to the new true Passover feast. So those who think the literal understanding of his institution of the Lord's Supper (not symbolic or figurative), was cannibalism can be forgiven for misunderstanding. Why? Having not been invited, theJewish leaders would not have seen that he did not cut his precious flesh or cut his arteries. So their argument of cannibalism fails.

(2) His disciples, thousands of him who followed him for up to two years before His new Passover. Our Lord's pattern in talking to various people who misunderstand him follows two patterns (a close reading of various passages attests strongly to this pattern): (1) When his audience is convinced he is speaking literally, they raise an objection. When Our Lord is speaking figuratively, he corrects them. (many examples, most memorable is when Nicodemus thinks, in John 3, that Our Lord means that to be 'born again' that Jesus means one must come out of our mother's womb a second time. There are many other examples of this pattern.) (2) When Our Lord speaks literally and his audience understands him to be speaking literally, they raise objections, often in incredulity, astonishment and anger. How does he respond? a) He repeats himself, often many times. b) He says for emphasis, Verily once but most often Verily, Verily or Amen, Amen. c) He raises the 'ante',so to speak. Such is the case (raising the ante) when he switches the word 'eat' from Greek phago (used some 250 times in the NT to mean ordinary 'eating') to 'trogo", (gnaw/chew/masticate) to emphasize he is not speaking figuratively, but literally. What is the outcome among so many disciples? They leave him. Think about that -- nowhere in the New Testament do we read that such a large group of His believers abandon him over such a key teaching of His.

(3) The question Our Lord asks of those who remain after the Jewish leaders and His many disciples reject his teaching. Just the 12 Apostles. Read it for yourself in John 6. And then consider that the passage says that this is the historical occasion when Our Lord sees the beginning of the treachery of Judas.

It seems to me that sin is always rooted in selfishness. So maybe we need to look at our motivation for our actions. And maybe we need to ask ourselves if the choices that we make bring honor and glory to the name of God. Whether we want to believe it or not, many people in this country and in other countries around the world consider the use of alcohol and tobacco products to be inconsistent with the Christian life. People have said to me that they could not come to Jesus because they smoked cigarettes and/or drank alcohol. In some countries, it someone sees a Christian drinking alcohol or using a tobacco product, they will not listen to anything that person says. The way we live our lives has a profound impact on the credibility of our words. If there is any possibility that something we say or do has a negative impact for the cause of Christ, why should we continue saying or doing those things? Because we want to? Because we have freedom in Christ? I know I'm not perfect, but I pray that everything I say or do will bring honor and glory to the name of my God. Nothing else is important.

Those who believe it is OK to drink are using the Bible to justify their behavior, rather than to shape their behavior. This is typical of interpreting the Bible to fit one's desire. They did a bad job of explaining the passage in Romans of not causing brothers to stumble. I suppose the next behavior to be accepted would be drug.

Well, yes Y'shua did bring down the house with a fine wine, but...t'ah...yeah, there seems to be a basic ignorance about wine making here, and historical winemaking.

The wine that Y'shua, the Jew's, and the goyim drank was not like what you all are familiar with today.
Their wines were very weak in alcohol content,1%, maybe 2%, not the 7%-to-9% we have today. But the key item is that their wine was a substitute for clean, drinkable water in the city (read: uncontaminated with human or animal waste)

Hence, the reason why the prized item for people in the country, and the city, was that of "living water," or water that was drawn/collected directly from the spring head, or well, and not down stream or piped in.

Also, it bears repeating that the people from that day also suffered a lot of disabilities due to the effects of lead poisoning which is what they all used for storage vessels, water pipes, and...alas, wine making.

This total ban on booze is historically recent. The Puritans drank alcohol, as did Martin Luther. I work with a lot of people in AA, y parents were alcoholic, i know the dangers. My monthly indulgence will do no damage. we need to be guided by the Holy Spirit not a rule book.

In response to PT, Justification is not me doing whatever on earth I feel is right. Justification is the declaration by God that my guilt of condemnation has been absolved, so sure, drinking will not put you into the pit, but am I now to live that Grace can abound? Paul also did ask that as well. My life, how I live is the central discussion of such great passages as Gal. and Eph. I am to live in a manner that brings honor and glory to Christ and not to justify my wants or desires. 1 Cor. 10:31 - Whether you eat or DRINK or whatever you do, do it unto the glory of God.

I struggle finding out how God gets any glory in me conducting a lifestyle that is so interconnected in our present culture with debauchery and licentious habits. Gluttony is a sin, so stop it. Is drinking a sin, don't find where it is taught, but we also don't find a lot of things like watching "R" rated films or wearing pants as a lady, pornograhpy, etc. What we do find are the principles to guide our lives such as modesty, sobriety, controlling lust, proper sexual relations, etc.

These principles are what we find overtly taught in Scripture and the thinking I have is that we are trying to live our lives in self justification because we don't want to live above reproach or stand out in a world that truly needs lights and not shimmers of truth.

The argument is for discernment and I don't see how you can have good discernment when you are allowing the external elements such as alcoholic beverages control your thinking. There are many areas that we all should be willing to say it isn't best. Could I do it? Sure, but is it best?

By the way...I don't think pants on women is a sin. My wife wears them. No problem with the style. I am afraid we fail to appreciate that not all things are "expedient" even if they are "lawful."

Hi sheerahkahn,
I'm wondering what your source is for the statement "Their wines were very weak in alcohol content,1%, maybe 2%, not the 7%-to-9% we have today". Wine is typically 12-14%.

As for the mixing with water, there are references in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and Roman sources that wine was typically mixed with various spices, which really made it strong. I have heard many times the view that the water diluted 7-9% wine, but I would refer you to this ~ http://www.balashon.com/2009/03/mozeg.html He has a long discussion, making at least this point ~ "So it wasn't the alcohol that made the wine strong - it was the spices! And in fact, we see that "spices" were added to wine in a number of Hebrew sources. We see that almost all the mentions of mesek can be explained to be adding spices or other drugs to the wine (see for example Daat Mikra on Yishayahu 19:14, and Shadal on Yishayahu 5:22, who writes, "they would add spices ???? to wine in order to make it more intoxicating"). In Maccabees III 5:45 it says that the elephants were driven to madness before battle by giving them "wine mixed with frankincense". Kaddari mentions Mark 15:23 , where we see that myrrh was added to the wine as an anaesthetic (we've previously discussed how in Jewish sources wine was provided before an execution.) And there are similar sources in the Talmud as well (Maaser Sheni 2:1). Note that the Aramaic word for intoxication was besumei ?????- from besamim ?????, "spices"!

I understand that the various sources the author cites are rabbis commenting in the Mishna, Talmud and Gemera.

Peace be with you!

Clearly, this is a totally a generational choice. You will notice there were no "hoary haired" men on the platform. Each generation sets its own rules of conduct, as have these young brothers with laptops in tow. Drinking... not just wine, has swept though the Church like an epidemic. Whether right or wrong no one can become an alcoholic if he never imbibes.
There is nothing more disturbing than being among drinking Christians who have had too much to drink. Where does it become a sin; when you start drinking or when you don't stop?

lol, I'm not much of a wine drinker, even though my father still makes it...I think I wrote 7-to-9 because of the some of the beers he used to make. The average should be about 10-to-11, 14% seems a little high to me, but then again, I'm not a wine drinker.
I didn't want to touch upon the spices because I don't know much about the types of spices available to that culture that they would use in their wines.
It is quite possible that some of the spices produced a weak halucengenic response due to poor-to-no processing (i.e. washing, drying, etc) of the spice, but that would be guessing with no reference on my part.
The only spice I'm familiar with is the mulling spices, but I'm not sure if the near east had such a concoction or not.
I apologize for any confusion.

The fact that this kind of petty discussion even exists is one of the reasons why I no longer self-identify as an evangelical.

I am shocked that leaders of a Christian school or what have you would say any drinking in any amount is ok. Its becoming typical to hear "christians" using certain scripture to justify a behavior that IS NOT RIGHT.
Is it a sin? I don't know if its a
"sin" however, Christians are called to be SEPERATE from the world, that means in behaviors the world partakes in, drinking being one of the biggest!
I don't think people who commend drinking think about the effects it has on an unsaved persons soul. If an unsaved person sees a "christian" drinking it up on Saturday but talks and acts like a Christian the rest of the week, then 9 chances out of 10 they view them, and every other Christian, as hypocrites. And in their mind, Christians become no different than anyone else in the world.
I am just appallled that men who pride themselves as leaders and call themselves Christians would stand there and justify drinking at all. No wonder no one takes Christians seriously anymore.

I don't drink, but I know plenty Christians who do. And guess what? I don't think any less of their Christianhood because of it.

Christianity should be based soley upon your personal relationship with Christ-- not any of this "he thinks, she thinks; he said; she said." No man has any right to judge another's relationship with Christ (Judge not, lest ye be judged.). Only God knows the heart of man. You folks are getting caught up in utter legalism, which is exactly what Christ despied of the Jews.

As the Bible says, remove the plank out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from someone else's.

We all have (and do) sin and we all have fallen short of the glory of God. While you are out there pointing fingers at those who drink, I bet I could find 20 other things that YOU do that are sinful as well.

Encourage each other in Christ and pursue YOUR own personal relationship with our Heavenly Father! You will then be way too busy to keep tabs on who had a drink and who hasn't.

Three points: first, the suggestion that wine in biblical times was not as potent as it is today is nonsense. Crushed ripe grapes, when fermented, go to about 12% AC then the process stops. The yeasts, and their function, have not changed in five thousand years. Orthodox Jewss today make it the very same way Abraham did. Second, one of the OT curses God threatened adulterous Israel with is that the vine will not bear, the winepress will be idle. This right after He says that He has given wine to make our hearts glad. Again, nothing changed in 5000 yrs. Third, the bit about stumbling one's brother is valid, but ONLY in the context of known issues, such as eating meat dedicated to non-existent gods in a context of new converts from that idolatry. This does NOT mean I have to be continually looking over my shoulders "on the chance" I might stumble "someone". Pay attention when someone new is present, if a glass of wine would send him on a bender, pass. Otherwise, pour and enjoy. Let us have done with such nonsense, God GAVE us wine for our good. It is sin which has perverted it, just as with sex, cars, work, money, stuff, firearms, hobbies, X-box, music, and the list has no end. Because someone ELSE spends his days at the porn flicks, shall I never see another film? Utter nonsense. Pastors are to be about EQUIPPING THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, not about imposing silly laws and limits that do not appear in Scripture. Same with FATHERS, who are to teach your children the right use of ALL THINGS, which are lawful in moderation.

I asked a friend earlier today about the issue of alcohol content of wines, and he said he'd get back to me later.
This is the site he sent me too.
http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine-chart.php
I'm passing this along because this is new information for me.
Apparently the Roman wines were high in alcohol content, so they "cut" them with water to lower the potency, so what I related was false information about the alcohol content.
I've should've investigated my sources more, so I've learned something new myself.

No-one has yet mentioned Jeremiah 35, in which a family has maintained the standard of an ancestor who decreed that theirs would be a non-drinking family. Some excerpts follow, but read the whole story for your selves:

5 Then I set bowls full of wine and some cups before the men of the Recabite family and said to them, "Drink some wine."

6 But they replied, "We do not drink wine, because our forefather Jonadab son of Recab gave us this command: 'Neither you nor your descendants must ever drink wine.

18 Then Jeremiah said to the family of the Recabites, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'You have obeyed the command of your forefather Jonadab and have followed all his instructions and have done everything he ordered.' 19 Therefore, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Jonadab son of Recab will never fail to have a man to serve me.' "

I came from a family that never drank. On the one occasion when someone gave my grandfather, who lived with us, a six-pack of stout, he showed us children where he thought it belonged by pouring it down the kitchen sink while we watched!

So... drinking alcoholic beverages was never attractive to me. I dislike its smell and feel uncomfortable in the company of people who are drinking, especially if they are Christian people. But I don't tell them not to drink-- I believe that if God wants them not to drink, He will let them know and it is up to the individual who is called to not drink to be obedient. For some people, drinking may be a sin if they have been called to not drink. For others, there may be no disobedience at all. There is room in the church for all of us; our relationship with Christ is the important thing.

Numbers 6 also describes not drinking for a designated period of time as part of a special vow to God. So as I see it, a time of not drinking can look like one way of fasting for a special time of retreat, whether for worship, gratitude, or seeking God's will.

For myself, my reason for being a non-drinker whose home is an "alcohol-free zone" involves a bit of all I have described above, plus a personal element. I knew as a young teenage Christian that God was calling me not to drink. I later realized during a communion service as I partook of the wine, that I never wanted to experience wine as representing any other thing than the blood of Jesus; so, for me, my decision to not drink represents my commitment to Christ. I simply could not have a social drink without feeling that I was rejecting Jesus and His call on my life. But I do recognize that He leads every person on an individual basis and there is no reason for me to impose my personal calling and commitment as a requirement for other people.

My personal 2 cents worth....
Blessings to all of you.

There is something to be said about alcohol abuse. (Alcoholism) is a disease just like cancer or diabetes. I do agee that the help comes from Our Lord, But people need to wake up and understand that alcohol and drug abuse is in fact a sickness and people that are inflicted with this disease do not have control over it, not while in the middle of using or drnking any way.
They need help just like any other sickness.
The only difference in this is there is no cure there is only abstinence and they need help to achieve this.

I think that the crucial part of the comments here are that we should not get DRUNK. If I, as I do, have only ONE glass of alcohol then I am not acting differently and I am not putting myself in a compromising situation. I am also not being a bad example for others. I believe that by using self control and never having more than one drink I am showing others how to be in the world but not of it.

A LOVE . PLEASE SEE DEUTERONOMY 22:5 on whether ladies should wear pant or not. This verse is my only conviction in the Bible on this issue . On taking alcohol; drinking may not be part of ten commandments . calling to be a priest/king is enough to stay from alcohol . If you are not called by God into such offices why are you burdened about drinking alcohol or not.

Aubrey makes an interesting point on whether you are called into priesthood and how that affects drinking. The point being that the scriptures do describe all Christians as part of a royal priesthood and a peculiar generation...

I don't think by the way that a glass of wine, or a beer, or even a martini will be a sin, but we should be aware of the times we are in and the ravages of alcohol in our society, and no I don't have to look over my shoulder, I just need to look up to God and really seek His direction for what I am doing.

By the way, let's try also not to point to other bad behavior to attempt to justify other behaviors... it is a false argument.

Anyway it is an important discussion to have because seeking God's will in our lives and the testimony we present of our God to others IS important.

Oops, that post was by adeyemo, not Aubrey. Sorry.

I think it might be good for the church in America to rephrase the alcohol issue by emphasizing that it's not a blanket sin to drink. I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition and yes, it's clear that the official perception in that circle is that "all drinking is evil". However, having lived overseas and met a wider circle of people in the USA over time, I've come to the conclusion that this dogma creates a big problem. For one thing, a certain level of hypocrisy, where people drink in their homes or when out of town, etc. They personally don't have a conviction against drinking, they just want to make sure other people in church don't see them. Or, within the general culture of the Bible belt, since drinking is a little verboden, only heathens do it type thing, people feel that since they are "bad" by drinking AT ALL that they might as well just get drunk. That pushes drinking to the extreme of teetotaler vs. drunk. Whereas in other countries there is also the happy medium of having a few drinks simply for enjoyment. You even see pastors/priests/vicars sharing a drink with their congregation. And no, not just wine.
It also can create that judgmental, haughty, better-than-thou attitude against those "heathens" and "sinners" who drink, and that can also shut down dialogue and put people off.

It shouldn't be a big deal if a Christian enjoys beer with pizza and friends, or likes to have a margarita from time to time, etc. I would apply the "not stumble" admonition mostly towards alcoholics and people who have really been damaged by alcohol OR who have a VERY strong conviction against all drinking - but I would honor them by not drinking in their presence, not by pretending I just never drink at all. (Unless, of course, the Holy Spirit convicted me about alcohol).

BTW, I have never been remotely close to drunk. I do enjoy a tasty drink on occasion. P.S. Ironically the drinks I do NOT touch are all soft drinks (they are so bad for you)P.P.S. No, people drinking soft drinks around me does not cause me to stumble!

In response to "Shocked":
You said, "If an unsaved person sees a "christian" drinking it up on Saturday but talks and acts like a Christian the rest of the week, then 9 chances out of 10 they view them, and every other Christian, as hypocrites."

I agree with that. But instead of "drinking it up" on a Saturday, why can't they have a few drinks on a Saturday while STILL talking and acting like a Christian?

My, but a lot of discussion over this topic, yet others don't seem to generate this level of thought which are far more controversial. To say drinking per se is sin and causes others to stumble is to condemn all of the liquor and winemaking, brewing industries. Wine has several studies showing that there ARE some health benefits. I often had a problem in drinking beer or especially champagne as a young man, and I do not touch them now. Part of the reason is that we go to bars to drink, and often don't eat anything with the drinks
That's wrong thinking;causes many to sin. A drink or two with food should not cause any problems, but some people should not ever drink. And they shouldn't condemn others that do in moderation, any more than they condemn people who remarry after a divorce.