I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not a "commercial" from the 1920's (especially considering that commercials didn't come until TV's did). That's a History Channel re-enactment designed to make the minister look weird and authoritarian, and therefore take a subtle shot at the idea of abstinence.

You Americans are funny!

I'm with Bob. That looks and sounds more like a clip from a late 1930s early 1940s film production. Hollyworld has always liked to parody and mock the fundamentalists of the post-Scopes era. The History Channel apparently thought Hollyworld got history right. Not.

Maybe from an old Movie? Alcohol consumption must be as most else in the Christian's life, a personal decision guided by the Holy Spirit. I rarely drink as I minister to many alcoholics. It might be different with a different ministry. Even so, I choose to add no rules to a Spirit Lead life. It is not a rule, just an inclination.

Pastors that have relaxed attitude toward alcohol don't have a Celebrate Recovery ministry in their church.

@Kevin: Not true! Don't make sweeping generalizations like that! I am a pastor who is VERY supportive of recovery ministry - and 12-Step programs in general! I am a firm believer in Celebrate Recovery and am, in fact, going through the participants' guide now with some guys to work on some of my own "hurts, habits and hang-ups," but that does not mean I am a teetotaler.

I enjoy drinking wine and beer occasionally, and it's a blessed relief from my growing up years of legalism around this area. I've discovered the love of God, which has nothing to do with whether or not I drink.

And I still can't find one verse in the Bible to tell me drinking alcohol responsibly is somehow a sin.

I'll say it again. I don't need a Bible verse to tell me that drinking alcohol is self destructive any more than I need one to tell me not to play russian roulette.

I have never had anyone tell me, "I can handle my alcohol" who I actually believed could habndle their alcohol. I always think: Who are you trying to convince, me or yourself?

Alcohol is mind altering. It alters one's perceptions and judgement, always in a bad way. And you don't have to blow a .08 to suffer the effects. One drink is all it takes.

So let's stop trying to use the Bible to rationalize bad behavior.

Anyone who says, "I don't need a Bible verse" is going in the wrong direction. I went to a conservative seminary where I was required to sign my name about not using alcohol and I didn't while there. Interesting note is that in a systematic theology class a rather well known author talked about the use and abuse of alcohol. On all other subjects the bible was extensively used to come to an understanding of truth. In that class I heard stats, fear of accidents, and exhortations about Nazarite vows, but not one verse on the subject at hand. The reason, the bible did not support his view.

Leviticus 2 tells the instructions for grain offerings. God instructs us to not burn yeast in the grain offerings. Coincidentally, this is how beer is brewed. God doesn't necessarily forbid us from doing it, but he says do not do this in my name.

As Paul says in 1 Corinthians, everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial.

Honestly, people. Do we really think that Jesus drank unfermented grape juice at the Last Supper instead of actual wine (4 cups of it, by the way, as the Passover Seder calls for)?

And why in the world would Jesus turn water into wine for a wedding reception if He believed in abstinence from alcohol?

And why would Paul advise Timothy to favor wine over water for the sake of his health?

And why would Paul caution about all believers sharing food and starting simultaneously to avoid drunkenness at the Corinthians' communal meals if he instead should have forbidden alcohol altogether?

Why is it we want to regulate behavior where Jesus and Paul did not?

Grain offerings have something to do with beverages? The passover bread is unleavened so that means the wine was really grape juice. No wait that was about beer or something. Let us not engage in exegetical nonsense, hope that is not being too direct.

I don't see how pointing out that adding yeast to grain is called fermentation and that the Lord instructed the Israelites not to do that in their offerings is nonsense. I never said anything about wine really being grape juice. I was merely saying that it's not always beneficial to engage in drinking alcohol. Do whatever you want, but remember the consequences. Is drinking a glass of wine or even a six pack of beer prohibited? No, but what are the benefits?

This is no more a video from the Prohibition era than Orlando Bloom's "Kingdom of God" movie was a video from the Crusades era.

Were you serious?

If you're ever in Wheaton, Illinois, visit the Billy Graham Center Museum, where they feature a film clip of Billy Sunday preaching against alcohol in the late 1920s.

He's definitely more believable than the History Channel depiction, but the style and substance is pretty similar.

I'm with Matthew - this whole conversation is laughable at best, embarrassing at worst.

This discussion is intended to be taken seriously? Maybe this site really is mostly about page views? I'm beginning to wonder.

By the way, nice inclusiveness with the "weaker BROTHERS" part in the post. I guess we don't need to worry about our weaker "sisters?" The mindset shows folks.

RPS and others: There is no other behavior that Christians consistently tell others not to do, but actually has biblical support (and potentially a command). The scriptures above are all actually there. Jesus' command to "do this in remembrance of me" probably doesn't necessarily mean wine. But if we are serious about the Lord's supper it included wine (as did the early church and the Mid evil church, the reformation church and all the other expressions of church up until recently.) How in the world can people claim to take scripture seriously and then at the same time say that all people should not drink any alcohol.

I understand alcoholism (I have a brother-in-law and father-in-law that are alcoholics, I spend several years working at a drug and alcohol rehab center). But become one person is an alcoholic does not mean that all others are required to abstain. It is like saying that become some are divorced we should all stop marrying. It just is not scriptural and to claim that it is the "right" or "Christian" thing to do is just wrong.

I think tea totalers and so silly. I attended a fundamentalist church for years and I remember how scandalous it was for a kid that grew up the in church to have any beer or wine at their wedding. I remember thinking sarcastically to myself ("yeah, no follower of Christ would allow wine at a wedding because Christ was against wine at weddings...oh wait).

This link has the best summary of how ridiculous the tea totaler arguments are:

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v2n2/ant_v2n2_issue1.html

Many opinions. . . but I'm concerned about God's.
Things we do know from the Bible:
God warns about dangers of wine: Prov 20:1, Hab.2:15
God condems loss of control and effects of alcohol: Prov. 23:29-35, Eph 5:18
There are situations where alcohol is present that God says are inappropriate for Christians. (1 Pet. 4:3)
It's hard to believe that Jesus, who prohibits the loss of control that alcohol produces would create intoxicating wine at a wedding.
Bottom Line: God should be in control of our lives (Eph 5:18)--anything that claims His position is obviously wrong.

It's a reaction, that's all it is, against the evangelical temperance movements of the past.

In another 50 years we'll all swing to the other extreme and tout the evils of alcohol all over again.

Matthew and Jesse are nearly right..."this whole conversation is laughable at best, embarrassing at worst."

Actually, that's not the worst. The worst is that young people start to get the idea that Christians are making up rules and twisting Scripture at convenience in order to ban behaviors they personally don't like. It's hard enough to get our youth to adopt genuine, historical Christian ethical teachings in an increasingly post-Christian era. All this teaches our kids is that our ethic is a sham disguise for paternalistic authoritarianism.

Next thing you know, someone will be trying to tell us that it's a sin to dance.

This debate is tired.

Read your Bible people.
It's a shame that there are only two posts that even site scripture.

@Grace: In your post May 16 your list disregarded those verses that were inconvient to your argument, such as John 2:1-11 and I Tim. 5:23. It is impossible, and intellectually dishonest, to dismiss John 2:1-11 with the unbiblical declaration, “…It’s hard to believe that Jesus, who prohibits the loss of control that alcohol produces would create intoxicating wine at a wedding.” It was a witness to the manager of the wedding who assessed the quality of the wine that Jesus produced. Consequently, believe it!! Don’t disregard the truth of scripture because it doesn’t fit your view of what should have happened. And, based on the context of I Tim. 5:23, that moderate consumption of wine has medicinal properties. You are correct, though, that God should be in control of our lives (Eph 5:18). However, we must be honest in our interpretation of scripture and not twist it justify our own devices.

Will, It is a shame you only quote the verses that support your poor position. It is not hard to imagine that Jesus would create alchoholic wine because it says he did. Read the entire story about Jesus turning the water into wine. If it is not clear to you that it was good strong alchoholic wine your skills at reading comprehension are very poor. Throughout the bible abundant wine was a sign of God's blessing. Solomon says God makes wine to make man's heart glad. Please develope a full scripture perspective on an issue before you try to teach others.

About five sides of the debate are well represented here and there's no need for me to take part in this tennis match. Instead I let's be golfers trying to improve our own game. I am the son of an alcoholic and have a son who is one too. I'm also a Pastor in a mainline Church which nominally still encourages its Pastors to be total abstainers. I began having a beer now and again with friends at Divinity School. Thirty years later it was 3--5 beers a night, my ministry was affected, as well as my family life. By God's grace that came to an end 5 years ago. All I want to say is that while we have liberty in all things, that liberty can lead to imprisonment unless we are absolutely honest with God and ourselves about who we are and where we are. Self-deception is part of the disease!

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mark 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

Did John eat or not? Yes he ate, but not in public celebrations or parties or in a gluttonous way. (Or, the Bible clearly contradicts itself here.) And yes he drank, but likely not alcohol, and possibly not ever grape juice. (I doubt locust and honey provide enough water to live on.)

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

If John actually did eat and drink, but not at parties or for the sake of celebrating or in a "bad" manner. What did Jesus do if what he did was "worse" than what John did?

Personally, I don't drink (alcohol) even if offered. There really is no need for it, except perhaps medicinal in some parts of the world.

From a stewardship perspective there is the expense which is higher than generally healthier drinks.

From the witness perspective, there's the weaker brother thing, and the world generally questions your integrity if they see you around a lot of drinking. Right or wrong, a lot of folks have been taught that a good christian doesn't drink. As an example to my children, why demonstrate a freedom that so easily can become a prison?

From a health perspective I've known people killed in accidents by people that where not "legally drunk".

I don't drink and there are a number of rational reasons for it. I don't smoke either for similar reasons. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Who am I to knowingly do something detrimental to it? I hope to honor God with my physical body. However, there is no specific law in the Bible that says don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco.

Personally, I think gluttony is a way bigger problem. I'd say it's even hypocritical for an obese christian to rail against drinking alcohol in controlled moderation. Of course, the obese know the problem with a lack of self control. (Don't argue genetics with me. That's less than a fraction of a percent here in the USofA.)

Eating is needed to live, but eating too much is sin. Drinking is needed to live, but drinking too much alcohol is wrong. Trying to control either can be very difficult. It really comes to self control and not putting ourselves in situations to fail. Having never been drunk, it's easier for me to resist the 'I need a drink!' mentality of those I work with. But eating too much is easy to fall into. My wife is a really, really good cook and I like to eat!

Titus 1:8 Instead, he must be hospitable to strangers, must appreciate what is good, and be sensible, honest, moral, and self-controlled.
self-controlled!
self-controlled!!
self-controlled!!!

I don't know of a single person who smokes that doesn't want to stop. So why don't they? They are too weak! Thank God I never went down the road of smoking or drinking! Like most addictions, it's easier to never start than to try to stop later. But how do you convince someone to never start? By not doing it yourself often helps a lot!

In 1985 I had a book published called Good News for the Chemically Dependent, still in print. It was my effort to "smuggle" recovery from addiction into a church community that was by and large resistent and in denial.

A clergy person is the ONLY helping professional in the community who can walk right into people lives and homes, basically with a phone call. What if that person was trained in the dynamics of addiction, codependency, not to mention domestic violence, child abuse and neglect, bi-polar disorder, OCD, PTSD, and the list goes on. And what if, while not having to know how to treat these afflictions, they were accutely aware of the resources in their community who did?

So while there was no "blogging" back then, had there been, I wonder if our blogs might have sounded similar to some of these 24 years later.

How many lives have gone to ruin and families torn apart in those 24 years while we are still trying to decide if drinking is a sin, or if it's okay for clergy to drink? I mean really, is no drinking or drinking moderately, the best leadership we can provide to our people in the area of addiction and recovery?

Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Prov 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Prov 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. = NyQuil?? :-)