Piece or Peace?

Perhaps, the real question is do we trust in God or guns? If we cannot trust God to secure our times and places of worship, then what can God do? The early church did not arm defenders to protect worshipers, rather they became martyrs. God is able to protect and defend his people, and at times he also calls us to become witnesses with our lives. Stephen would be an example that comes quickly to mind.

Danny: Maybe both.

Ick. This reminds me of a radio commercial I heard on our local Christian media outlet pushing home security systems.

Their tag line was something to the effect of "Protecting the Home, trusting Jesus to protect the soul"...

basically horrific.

It's just an extension of the same mentality.

This is more evidence to the disconnectedness of American Christianity. Or maybe it is better to say another way in which 'American Civil Religion' shows itself in and against true Christian faith.

"We're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms," says Pagano. "Without that this country wouldn't be here."

/facepalm

Do they even teach American colonial history in seminary, or has the seminaries just surrendered that aspect of education to the Universities and decided to go with...oh hey, look, activist judges, lets protest!

Considering what the Church endured in its first few centuries, I'd say the real problem is a disconnect with church history. Read about the saints and martyrs! I can't imagine any of them behaving like this.

Have we really fallen so far that someone has to make a video explaining to church leaders why having armed vigilantes at church is a bad idea? This is beyond mind-boggling to me. Enough already! Time to preach and live the gospel of Jesus Christ, not America's de facto (un)civil religion.

I might be the only one here, but I'm going to say that I think it might be ok to have armed personnel on your campus. I don't think it's wise to hire an armed security guard, who walks around with a piece on on his/her waist. It's certainly not wise to have just anyone bring their guns to church. But what if you have an off-duty police officer or two with concealed weapons. They are permitted by law to intervene with force to protect the innocent. It is completely within their role as a police officer. What if the church does not hire them for it, but they volunteer to do it, and we allow. That seems wise and Biblical to me.

I think it's reasonable to allow parishioners to carry concealed, provided they've gone through the fairly tedious process of acquiring a license to do so.

What's more, there is precedent in Scripture for the idea of self-defense. For example, the Mosaic Law in Ex. 22:2 did not hold a person guilty if they killed a thief breaking into their house. Hebrews 11 praises those who were martyred for their faith, but it also praises others who, because of their faith, "became valiant in battle." Nehemiah 4:18 mentions that the laborers rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem owned their own swords, for the purposes of self-defense. And many people overlook the fact that, in Luke 22:36, Jesus instructs the disciples to acquire things they will need for traveling, including swords.

NOW, having said all that, I DO think this church in Kentucky is using this as a gimmick, and sadly, it distracts from the true gospel and further cements the image of the church as aligned with a particular political position, which is disappointing. This church, like so many others, definitely seems to be crossing the line into cheap stunts, rather than proclaiming the truth of fallen man and redeeming grace.

God, in His wisdom, allows use of the sword under necessity, but also cautions us not to "live by the sword." That is, we ought not use force to advance the Kingdom, because it will avail us nothing. The weapons required for that task are not of this world, but of the Spirit.

I've had retired police officers in both of the congregations I've served, and all of these men (yes, I know there are females in law enforcement, so save some keystrokes-in this case the were all men) carried. On more than one occasion, I was glad they were there.

I am a responsible gun owner-yes, it's possible-my guns are kept under lock and key, and the ammunition is kept in a separate location. I will defend my family if necessary. If you have the gift of martyrdom, so be it, but I'm responsible to shepherd the flock, and once in a while shepherds have to fight.

If I found myself kneeling to take communion next to someone carrying a concealed pistol, I'd be looking for another church.

I've got plenty of guns, but I don't get how someone lives in such fear that they feel the need to carry a hidden pistol. There's a deeper issue than the 2nd amendment going on there.

I'd also add that much depends on the church. Two out of the three shooters (I can't find the reason for the First Baptist Church incident) were apparently conservatives targeting liberals.

"I don't get how someone lives in such fear that they feel the need to carry a hidden pistol."

I think it's unwise to assume someone carries a weapon because they're "afraid."

he who lives by the second amendment dies by the second amendment.

We have strict rules in our church for weapons at worship:

No shotguns for women over 80 and kids under 7.

Men must bring their own ammo and use silencers during the prayers.

We aren't nuts, after all.

Armed vigilante is a little strong for someone who is armed at a church service. Protection is different that summary justice. This guy does not know what he is talking about. Usually he does but he is always fearful of lawsuits and selling his stuff. The example is not controversial at all. The second 5 shots unjustified. Texas has had concealed carry for years with problems from license holders no more than police officers who carry.

Guns in church! On church property! Concealed or not? Has the church in America completely lost the plot? I just don't get the mindset that says that this is an OK thing to do. Nor do I understand Christians who think that it's acceptable to own guns. Unless you earn your living from hunting why would any Christian own a gun? Guns make a violent response to a situation so much easier, with inevitable fatal consequences. By all means if people feel threatened then post watchers, unarmed! Praying for protection is even better.

As a member of this church, can I ask the opposed some questions? Do you wear seat belts? Do you go to the doctor? Do you lock the doors in your homes? If you answered 'yes' to any of these, you're walking a tightrope of near-hypocrisy to which you might want to cling a little tighter. By your own reasoning, if you do any of these things, you're not fully trusting in God to protect you.

Regarding the 'gimmick' aspect of this, or whether we have give up the gospel for 'cheap stunts'...this is not a worship service. This is a picnic-style celebration. It was supposed to be a local celebration...we were planning on about 150-250 people. If we caused this stink and then decided not to have the event then, yeah, you could say we're doing this for publicity...but we're not.

And before you judge the methods, look at the motive behind them. What's the difference between this and church hair salons or church coffee shops? Think of the people who will attend this event who would never step foot in a church. And the Bible does not forbid Christians from owning weapons or from self-defense, so if this is a 'Christians can't do this' type of issue then you're adding conditions to salvation. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. Our works neither add to nor take away from our salvation.

If you don't like the idea, fine. That's your right. But please don't call our salvation or our commitment into question based on a knee-jerk reaction...that's just iniquitous.

First, I have to take serious issue with the term "vigilante". A vigilante is a criminal who acts outside the law in a personal quest for justice. Self defense is just what it says - defense of one's self. It is not punishment. It is not retribution. And it is not illegal nor is it immoral. I know of no mainstream Christian denomination that preaches a person should allow themselves to be killed by a violent attacker. The vigilante label exposes serious ignorance at best and a deliberate and dishonest anti-self defense agenda at worst.

Second, someone said that God will protect Christian churches from attackers. This negates the concept of free will, which allows an attacker to enter any building he chooses and carry out an evil act. It also puts a terrible burden on the innocent victims of these crimes, who then are left wondering if their own personal sins, or an error in doctrine, or the sins of their clergy might have caused the attack. Where can one find this perfect church worthy of God's protection?

Mark, you will never find yourself kneeling for communion next to someone with a concealed pistol. That's what concealment is all about. If you can tell a person is carrying, that person has failed in their legal responsibility of proper concealment.

And one final point - people have been carrying legally in many churches for many years. I'm not aware of any mishap or accidents caused by this. I'm only aware of lives being actively saved by the practice. Your fears are imagined and unfounded, and these gun prohibitions can only cost lives, not save them.

First, I have to take serious issue with the term "vigilante". A vigilante is a criminal who acts outside the law in a personal quest for justice. Self defense is just what it says - defense of one's self. It is not punishment. It is not retribution. And it is not illegal nor is it immoral. I know of no mainstream Christian denomination that preaches a person should allow themselves to be killed by a violent attacker. The vigilante label exposes serious ignorance at best and a deliberate and dishonest anti-self defense agenda at worst.

Second, someone said that God will protect Christian churches from attackers. This negates the concept of free will, which allows an attacker to enter any building he chooses and carry out an evil act. It also puts a terrible burden on the innocent victims of these crimes, who then are left wondering if their own personal sins, or an error in doctrine, or the sins of their clergy might have caused the attack. Where can one find this perfect church worthy of God's protection?

Mark, you will never find yourself kneeling for communion next to someone with a concealed pistol. That's what concealment is all about. If you can tell a person is carrying, that person has failed in their legal responsibility of proper concealment.

And one final point - people have been carrying legally in many churches for many years. I'm not aware of any mishap or accidents caused by this. I'm only aware of lives being actively saved by the practice. Your fears are imagined and unfounded, and these gun prohibitions can only cost lives, not save them.

As an FTO once told me in the academy, "when I'm off duty, I'm off duty, I'm not on the payroll anymore, and I don't pack; but what I do pack is the same thing everyone else should be packing and that is change to make a phone call so the guys on duty can earn their pay."

In todays world, that would be a cell phone, which will be much more useful economically than a pistol.
But what I find disconcerting is that a lot of people are getting guns, pistols or otherwise, who get their training from television, or the movies.
There are so many variables in a bad situation involving guns that to actually comprehend them requires expert instruction from someone who has been in the midst of those bad situations and has a lot to convey...which, unfortunately, a lot of you have no interest in recieving.

The civilian world of firearms is quite different than the military world of firearms, and the fact that this pastor is mixing ignorance with guns makes me worried.

G-d knows how many "accidental" discharges have led to maiming and death, imagine what would happen with intentional usage!?!

A fluid target enviroment like a church is begging, pleading for "oh no!" statements, because the one thing some of you who are supporting this pastor seem to not mention is that once that bullet leaves the barrel...there is no calling it back.
Oh sure, you can aim it at the bad guy, but in a fluid target enviroment...once the trigger is squeezed, the bullet is gone, you, the shooter, have no control over whom it hits, whom it wounds, whom it kills.
Bottom line:
I would feel safer in a church full of psychotic nut-cases armed with baseball bats than I would with one well intentioned, but untrained person armed with a firearm in a bad situation.

You all should come down from your ivory towers and come to church in Caswell County, NC. I lived there for eight years.

Almost everyone in Caswell County goes to church. Almost everyone is a registered Democrat and EVERYONE owns a gun. Not because they are vigilantes or scared. They've always owned guns.

Children often receive their first .22 caliber rifle at age ten.

They don't generally make a habit of carrying guns to church unless they are going hunting afterward. But if someone were to bring a firearm to church, no one would blink an eye. It's nothing new. They have lived this way for 200 years.

They represent a not-so-unique slice of American culture of which Url and the commenters seem unaware.

It wasn't Mark who made the comment about taking communion next to someone scared to go to church without a Glock, it was me.

My daughter hung around with another kid whose father had a CCW permit and carried a pistol everywhere.

She's no longer permitted to be around that family after he got into a case of road rage and started waving his gun around on the interstate.

Please don't start that nonsense about people with concealed weapons being the good guys, because I don't buy it.

To kill someone with a gun, it takes 1) a gun and 2) someone willing to use it. If you meet those qualifications, you're a potential killer of someone I love. Your motivations may be pure now, but how about after someone cuts you off in traffic?

And yeah, I come from one of those country places too, and I owned my first gun at age 12, and have maybe a dozen here in the closet next to me.

When I get to the point where I am so scared to leave the house that I've got to be carrying a gun, I'll go get therapy, not a CCW.

"They represent a not-so-unique slice of American culture of which Url and the commenters seem unaware."

Yes, yes, a valid point about my ignorance of "that America," but wait...isn't that the same America that brought us road rage, drive-by's, accidental shootings, domestic violence, assassinations, random shootings, armed robberies, and mass murder?

or are you talking about a different America?

People outside America (like me) look on in amazement at the way in which guns rule the roost. Even more so when Christian communities see nothing wrong with everyone having a gun, and being prepared to use it. I don't think there's another country in the civilised world that is so obsessed by these darn things, and so disinclined to do something about it.

No Sheerahkahn, you don't know the people of whom I speak. And your judgmental presumptions are pure sin.

Hope you enjoy looking down on the rest of us.

Here's an image: Jesus packin a pistol.

I don't think so, people. How have we so badly missed the central purpose in our faith? That is to imitate Jesus Christ to the world as our witness of an alternative, in-breaking, reign and rule over our lives and the world?

Tell me, if Christians ultimately feel the need to take a human life, in -order to "protect" themselves from death, what separates them from the rest of the world? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Wielding the sword, was not permitted by Jesus (in a circumstance of self-protection and protection of the innocent I might add!), it wasn't permitted by the early church fathers, it wasn't permitted until Constantine.

Disciples of Constantine. That is what we see in place of the follower of Christ.

"And your judgmental presumptions are pure sin."

Is that a fact...Hmm, here, let me quote back to you something of yours..."You all should come down from your ivory towers and come to church in Caswell County, NC."

RDM, heal thyself.

"Hope you enjoy looking down on the rest of us."

Well, part of the problem here RDM is your perspective on me...and since I'm a believer in self-illumination being the better instructor I'll leave it to you to put the pieces together.

"No Sheerahkahn, you don't know the people of whom I speak."

RDM, you are still a child, with a childs thinking, and my prayer is simply this...that you, your church, and anyone you pass on the road you call your life never ever has to bury a love one shot dead because of an accident, or by purpose.

I know a hell of a lot more than I wish too, RDM, a lot more than I wish too. Probably too much...in fact, there is something to be said for remaining ignorant, but alas, as I have come to learn, life isn't concerned about what I want.

Btw, a cursory glance of google search, Caswell County NC Gun Deaths, shows that you seem to have the same problems the rest of the country has with guns.

I guess the people in your part of the country is no different than mine.

"...a cell phone, which will be much more useful economically than a pistol."

Heh, great. I'll keep that in mind when some nut breaks into the church nursery and starts shooting: "Boy, am I glad that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

Meanwhile, you'll have shrunk back from the divine mandate to defend the defenseless, because you lived in fear of your fellow believer carrying a sword.

Seriously, people, read Luke 22:35-38 and ponder why Jesus would include SWORDS as one of the provisions the disciples would need for traveling.

Like I said, I think this church is being a bit gimmicky, but more troubling is the incomplete, half-baked conception of God's character that so many American Christians seem to take for granted.

Thousands of years of Christian learning are available to us like never before, and we're too busy obsessing over Jon & Kate. Sad.

Joe James said: "Wielding the sword, was not permitted by Jesus..."

False.

Biblically illiterate people are constantly misunderstanding Jesus when He said, "Live by the sword, die by the sword" to be a statement about weapons, when it's actually a statement about the LIFE of the person using the weapon.

See Luke 22:35-38, which I'm now citing for the 3rd time. God is not as legalistic about weapons as people here are making Him out to be... A weapon, be it a sword or a gun, is a tool. It is not inherently evil (unless people turn it into an idol, which, sadly, does describe many).

It's how we use it - are we using it for just purposes, or unjust? God allows us to own weapons - be they swords or guns - with the responsibility that we use them to promote justice.

"Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praise of God be in their mouths
and two-edged swords in their hands,
to execute justice among the nations
and judgment among the peoples."
- Ps 149:5-7

This is a fascinating discussion in light of the recent discussion on this blog about alcohol. How is it that so many of you support Christians using something at least as destructive as personal firearms? How many Americans are killed by drunk drivers compared to guns? I don't know the answer but how is one so much more acceptable than the other?

Thank you to the poster who clarified that I'm not one who has an issue with guns.

Now, on to this:

"Unless you earn your living from hunting why would any Christian own a gun?"

Well...I don't earn my living that way, but I do enjoy hunting, and yes, I eat what I kill, so unless you're a vegan, save the keystrokes on that issue.

Skeet shooting is also a lot of fun, as is lining up a row of tin cans and knocking 'em down, but my guess is most of the metrosexuals on Out of Ur have never done either.

I sat with my cousin yesterday. He grew up in an area that believed in guns. He went into the military and served two tours in Iraq and his wife served one. He has a concealed carry permit and carries all the time. He told me how dangerous his area was and that he told me of three instances where he had pulled his gun or made it quite known that he had it. It may be that there really was a danger. He has not fired but it would not surprise me if he did some day. I have talked to him enough that I think it is likely that he is still suffering from PPSD. I respect his decision to serve, but think it was a very bad decision for him. He dropped out of high school and got a GED so he sign up at 17. He said that many of his friends went out and bought a new hand gun when Obama was elected because there were afraid handguns would be made illegal. He has a ton of training on how to properly handle weapons, but I still don't want him or anyone else to have a gun in church.

But there is no way that he would think that giving up his gun would be a good idea.

Wow! I'm shocked at the tone of these conversations. Name-calling and judgment from every side! It is obvious that these issues and passions run very deep on every side, but I'm shocked at the apathy toward the comments from OUTSIDE the US. I think those comments have been most revealing, since we all live in "the bubble" to some extent.

As far as the three shootings mentioned in the article, I live very near to Pastor Winters, and it seems the young man who shot him is mentally disturbed. From everything I've heard, Pastor Winters would have willingly traded his life for that of the young man, but who's to say for sure? The question is to you and I...would we?

This is probably because I am Canadian, but the idea of guns in ANY public place let alone a Church (which is supposed to be a place of peace) seems insane to me. I am sure there have been some shootings in Churches in Canada, but I have NEVER heard of one. Guns are for a purpose.... not for carrying around in public, unless you are a cop. They are for farmers to control coyotes, hunters during hunting seasons, that sort of thing. It is insane that people actually carry them to Church! I live in a BAD neighborhood, and yet I still do not feel the need to carry a gun.

Could you imagine some possible headlines if all parishioners were encouraged and allowed to carry handguns to church. This is made with a bit of humor in mind but the possibilities for the worst are real.

Two Dead in Theological Dispute over the Rapture.

Worship Leader Shot and Injured for Refusing to Reduce Volume on PA System.

Accidental Gun Discharge Injures Elder at Presbyterian Church.

I've been on the parish council of a largish (by Australian standards) evangelical Anglican church in suburban Sydney for a dozen years. During that time, not once has the issue of needing guns for security been raised. People in Sydney (the criminal underworld excepted) simply don't have guns.

Even in the gun-loving bush town where I grew up, no-one ever mentioned the idea of bringing their guns into church with them, and that was before the 1996 gun laws which imposed much greater restrictions on gun ownership than had previously existed. And none of my mates who've been ministers in the bush have ever mentioned it being an issue.

In light of this, I'd urge American Christians to consider the issue of guns in church again. If evangelical churches in other Western countries can get by fine without guns, do American churches really need them?

The bullets are real. Your god is not.

If you don't understand why people carry a gun, then I suggest you make some late-night hospital call on the south side of Chicago. After you've stitched up your knife wound I'll listen to you whine.

I'm a pastor and have a concealed carry permit. I've never fired my gun at another human being, but pulling it out has, on two occasions, saved my life.

The problem with guns in church is not about the guns -- in the hands of police or laity -- but with the ammo. If I carry on Sunday (and I don't) and shoot a perpetrator, I'll feel just fine about it. What I won't feel good about is the bullet that goes through the villian and hits someone standing behind them. The other issue is not with the gun but with the shooter. What if I miss? That bullet is going somewhere and I don't want to do a funeral of a parishioner that I shot.

It seems much of this discussion has not dealt with those practical issues. I take the position of "church law today" and would advise pastors and church boards to work with local law enforcement if they are concerned about security.

Wow. Why don't we have debates like this north of the 49th? Wow. I mean no great offence, but today i am proudly Canadian.

In Canada, no one packs firearms and we don't have church shootings. Coincidence?

While our churches may be more liberal generally, and perhaps less of a threat spiritually, they are rarely targets of such physical violence. We are such a tolerant nation, even to a negative degree, that if everyone is left to their own opinions, then it's assumed that we'll all get along.

There's absolutely no biblical validation for packing firearms, and so this defense is void. We may have a responsibility to protect others, but America breeds paranoia. This 'need' says more about your morality and values than anything else. It is sad that you assume so badly of your fellow person. Your view of human nature is so often off-kilter.

American culture is just more militant. You were founded by war. It seems to outsiders that America should concentrate on cleaning up its own violence instead of the world's. America is so militant about everything that most Canadians just shake their heads. Compare violent crime rates between militant countries and those more responsible.

Our previous government mounted a billion dollar campaign to register guns, as if that would be a deterent to crime. Did we ever waste a lot of taxpayers' cash on that useless idea. Making them easier to track is ok but it won't do anything more than help the police after the fact. If you want one bad enough, you'll find one eventually anyway.

Early Christians did not carry weapons because they didn't believe in it as Jesus taught. In fact they lived many times in caves hiding from the outside world during times when Christians were being hunted and killed or captured because they weren't allowed to carry weapons even in self defense by their religion and by their government. Usually the only people allowed weapons were soldiers of the conquering rulers or the legal government, not civilians. Obviously, man has changed Christianity in regards to weapons holding.
Today it's too easy for someone who has a temper or perceives the world owes them a living to get a gun and go hunting for humans. These nut cases aren't even known by the victims and aren't even members of the churches they do the killing in. I don't want any gun near me because people can't control their anger these days. We have generations of me, me, me people and not us people. And those wanting to carry a gun for "self-defense", ya, right, it's all about the power and not self-defense. If noone had a gun they would have to go to knives or fists to solve anger and victims would have a better chance of survival or of running away because you'll never stop the anger or the right to kill attitude, never, because it's people involved, you need to change the weapon or remove it from all people. A bullet just has too much speed and accuracy to it and on top of that Christians aren't supposed to have or use weapons if you follow Jesus and not man.

“Do you believe in God?”

For a Christian, this is a walk-in-a-park question. But it will turn out to be a walk-through-the-valley-of-the-shadow-of-death when a 12-gauge shotgun stares eyeball-to-eyeball at us, restlessly waiting for our answer. Such hypothetical terror-stricken scene is plucked out from decade-old Columbine Shootings. Silence seems to be the safest answer, as life-and-death questions engross our Doubting Thomas human thoughts: Is God real or not? Will He save me now? This is natural.

But, supernatural answer is what God expects from authentic Christians when He asks: “Will you really lay down your life for me?” John 13:38

The moment of truth for each one of us can come anytime - inside or outside the church.

I am a pastor in New Zealand. It staggers me that any pastor could endorse bringing sidearms to church. In New Zealand (like most other countries) the possession of a sidearm in a public place is prohibited. I understand that there is a cultural difference between our countries in relation to firearms, but it seems to me that the 'if you live by the sword, you die by the sword' concept is relevant here. Reponding to threats to the church with guns just escalates the violence problem. What about the churches together advocating for more constraints on guns? What about the churches being the instigators of a new amendment to the constitution and removing the right to carry guns (which is surely a remnant from another era!)?
How easy 'Thou shalt not kill' has become 'Thou shalt not kill, unless threatened.'

Thank you to our international brethren for their thoughts on this. It's true that we have a lot of guns here in America, but something else we have a lot of is gun laws.

Gun control doesn't work-ask the Brits how that's going for them.

I live in Obama's backyard-Cook county, IL, where it's very difficult to legally purchase a handgun, and yet we have major gun violence here. More laws aren't the answer.

Ahh. Listening to "Christians" argue, such a joyous sound to the devil's ears. There is nothing he enjoys more than to hear the "children" of the Living God bicker, fight, throw hateful words at each other. Conversations like this truly further the devil's mission by pushing people away from Jesus. Non-believers see discussions like this and see the way "Christians" hatefully attack each other and think "I can get more love sitting in a circle smoking a joint with some folks than I can at church."

The question I have is why are the devil's people more accepting and easier to get along with than "Christians"? Aren't "Christians" supposed to be Christ-like and didn't Jesus talk about Love...all the time?

Remember that your "church" isn't a social club where you surround yourself with like-minded individuals and only associate with those who agree with you on the issues. The Church is the world-wide collection of Christ followers who's mission it is to reach out to the lost and share the Love of Christ with them. Arguing over BS like this only encourages atheism. Love your neighbors folks...

Basil,
"Two Dead in Theological Dispute over the Rapture."

I especially liked this one though. That was funny.

I attend a large-ish church. I suppose it's a megachurch. We attract people of all sorts and at all stages in their walk with God. Things get a little rough now and then...domestic disputes, child custody battles, stalkings, etc. I think it's prudent to do our best to protect those who attend - especially our children. I'm not big on everyone in the auditorium packing heat but a few police officers or professional security guards make sense to me.

On the spiritual side, without God we become self centered and evil. Unfortunately, many in America are systematically destroying the Godly influence in our culture and the obvious results are violence, destruction, and death.
On the political side we have power hungry dictators wanting to consume and control the world and gangs wanting to consume our communities.
Together they form a threat to innocent people everywhere and a need for protection.

" willing to lay down your life for a friend" is referring to your love for others. As a father would you stand by and watch a thug rape your daughter or a dog tear her apart? If you do not love her enough to protect her by any means possible you are either a beast or a coward. Does it really matter if it's gun or a baseball bat?
A good soldier is just a father who loves his country enough to lay down his life to protect his fellow countrymen. Without them our country would be overrun and destroyed by others. Unfortunately millions of Europeans have found this out the hard way and died for it.
A good police officer is just a father that loves his community enough to put his life on the line for his neighbors.
A good volunteer security guard is just a father who loves his church and family enough to lay down his life if need be to protect the innocent in the church. A gun in these hands is a wonderful tool to serve and protect those we love.
However a dangerous weapon is a huge responsibility. A soldier would never be asked to go to battle without proper training. So even the security guard should be responsible enough to get appropriate training. We should applaud all those, from the father to the soldier, that have the LOVE and COURAGE to take on this huge responsibility to serve and protect others.

In the video above Rick Hammer uses the term "Vigilante". Wikipedia defines it this way,"A vigilante is a person who violates the law to exact what they believe to be justice from criminals." This is a very negative term. It is basically a person who unlawfully goes after another, after the crime, to take revenge. What we are talking about here is the lawful protection of the innocent to prevent a crime and then letting the police do their job afterward should something happen. If he intentionally used Vigilante in this way, he is displaying a severe bias in his views rather than objectively discussing the issue as he should. Other than that he raises many valid issues about liability and the responsible implementation of security measures.

It is interesting that Biblical references in this discussion are so limited. Where would the talk go if we reminded ourselves that Jesus was, and is, the Old Testament God incarnate?

I'm from Australia and recently some friends of mine have been on a holiday to america where they stayed at the house of a Christian friend. This Christian friend of theirs said to them that if Obama came to their house to take their gun, they would shoot him themself...
Also my friend coming home late one night was greeted by looking down the barrel of a gun when he entered.
This to me is simply ridiculous. Submission to authority, and 1 Corinithians 10:23 comes to mind, that everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.
Please realise that although you have the 'right' to bear arms, you are called to forgo your rights in order to reach everyone.
Wasn't it also Paul that said to die is gain? Why are we so afraid of it then? And yes I do believe that this is the cause. Fear.

Also to the person that was talking about Luke 22 and Jesus telling the disciples to carry swords, in verse 38 He says that 2 swords are enough. Seeming to say that he was using hyperbole as he often did in his illustrations. verse 50 also shows us that he rebukes Peter for using the sword he had.
So I really don't think that that passage is sufficient evidence to end the life of another, especially in light of the multitudes of teaching by Him to 'turn the other cheek' etc.

I pray that you can see yourself from another perspective, where christians all over the world are living just fine, and flourishing without needing guns to protect them.