Some good thoughts...unfortunate that he uses Acts 8 as a proof text for something that I'm not sure it was talking about.

The issue isn't whether a multisite church hinders the development of other gifted bible teachers. Thanks to the Internet, anyone can follow any gifted bible teacher if they're podcasting. I listen to several podcasts a week from different pastors.

However, those pastors are not my pastors. They don't know me, and I only know of them, rather than know them.

Therein lies the problem. If the shepherd doesn't know the sheep, the shepherd isn't effectively shepherding. A multisite church isn't the issue. It's just the newest symptom of an overly large church, where the congregation is ineffectively led, by remote, by someone who wrongly thinks the primary form of discipleship is a well-expounded Sunday morning sermon.

Discipleship is based on relationship. You can have a relationship with the fellow on the screen; but does everyone at the church have a relationship with the fellow on the screen? Seems to me the only person who could pull that off would be Jesus.

"a common bottleneck in the church planting process--finding a gifted expositor."

Is this another case of consumer Christianity? It is only a problem if you expect your speaker to be one of the top ten speakers in the nation. My experience in the UK is that there are many solid preachers available, who faithfully bring a word for the people in front of him - not a lecture aimed at thousands.

I am not threatened by the video preachers - I'm saddened by the consumer sheep.

"If you're a pastor that actually walks out on stage and takes shots at another pastor in your community, or another church in your community, you need to repent before God."

Isn't that just what he does in this bit of speech?

I agree with Sam.

"If you're a pastor that actually walks out on stage and takes shots at another pastor in your community, or another church in your community, you need to repent before God."

Isn't that just what he does in this bit of speech?

Strikes me as simple-minded if not outright arrogant - to so casually gloss over the deep theological and ecclesial thought that so many have offered regarding their apprehension over multisite and video venue approaches to church gatherings. This is exactly the sort of stance and attitude I have (sadly) come to expect from those who are so convinced of their own rightness. Rather than humbly admitting that those sincere followers of Jesus who disagree might in fact merit a careful listening to, straw men are constructed and systematically made fun of for being weak if not outright heretical. This is simply not the way of Jesus.

I believe, as someone said, multi-site churches hinders the local emergence of leaders (plus is take on Acts 8 is definitely prooftexting).

It reminds me of syndicated radio shows. To save $$$, radio stations are syndicating shows from radio personalities so that can broadcast them in various markets. They have hardly any local flavor and cannot respond immediately to events that happen locally. They show up periodically at scheduled events.

The only thing carrying them is their celebrity status...and that is the possible temptation of a multi-site church using video from one pastor to connect to his flock.

We have come to an age where we have the have's and the have not's. Churches are becoming mega-church/multi-site churches or they are stuck in small gear for attendance and facilities. We must face the facts that some some churches deserve to stay small and some in the right circumstance have potential to bust loose. Some large churches deserve to be large and some are about fluff and pizzazz. No matter what size church you are in you need to concern yourself with what God has called you to do in the Kingdom and do that with all the excellence you can pull from heaven. Thy Kingdom come thy will be done in me and my city. Amen

He's implying that churches gather around those with the "annointing." So, in other words, if you are a small church pastor who feels like the piped in sermons at the church next door cuts into your ability to serve your community, then you are a loser who doesn't have the "annointing." It all makes sense now!

Seriously though...he's making all sorts of theological leaps (like his misguided definition of "annointing"--as though a small church pastor is less "annointed" than he is) and seems totally naive and unawared of the deep structural issues within our culture that could contribute to a movement even if it were completely not annointed.

Now, that was the best eisegesis I have ever seen! Who wouldn't want to watch something like that every Sunday, on a huge screen!? It's not about the annointed or gifted pastor, it's about a dumb and dumber sheep that grew up on TV shows and whose only fellowship was that they ate the same popcorn brand that thousands of other viewers of he same shows ate. It's sad, very sad!

I'd love to put more words to this, but time relegates my contribution to this conversation to a bumper sticker.

Pastor ≠ Preacher

No sermon, from anyone, provides the shepherding of a pastor. That is something entirely different.

this is the best pro video venue take you can scrounge up to counter voices like bob hyatt or shane hipps? to answer the question, no, he's not right. He's calling out pastors who call our pastors. Not a lot of deep insight here.

The hermeneutical gymnastics used to accomplish this argument are so stretching that he threw his backbone (i.e. authority) out getting there.

Multi-site churches are a touch too close to Catholicism for me. For thousands of years we had a liturgy (i.e. order of worship) set for us, a message (i.e. lectionary) set for us, a means of collecting money set for us, and we're told that only the "great communicators" (i.e. the papacy) could speak to our people. We (Protestants) walked away from that.

Finally, (as others have noted) Pastor Noble has a very bad tendency to do exactly what he just preached against. Not long ago I heard him rant and rage against Sunday School saying it doesn't work. It works fine for the church I minister in. Here he throws pastors like me under the bus who have legitimate theological and methodological questions about multi-site.

Just because Pastor Noble says it works doesn't mean it works. I am deeply thankful for the work of the Christ that is going on in his congregation. Yet he cannot just drop this and walk away like it is nothing.

There is a deeply legitimate question about theology and methodology in the multi-site question. When we, the Church, allow our people to wander with no spiritual mouring or anchor and no real live spiritual leader we embrace a consumeristic Christianity that is dangerously close to practical atheism. Christianity costs something of us because it cost Christ everything.

The argument for multi-site is a weak one in my opinion. Clips like this strengthen my resolve. I listen to Pastor Noble and his podcast. But that doesn't make him my pastor. Distance is not overcome by technology. Presence is necessary.

You are the Church!
Robert Angison

I'm glad I'm not taking this issue seriously...multi-site church is what it is - dependent upon a consumeristic culture where people franchise themselves, their strategy, their popularity...I'm sorry this video is out in public...this is an embarrassment to the Kingdom. Not that I have an opinion or anything...I'm sure Perry is a nice young man...but video venues are not the 21st century equivalence of Acts 8...God, where do these people come up with this stuff?

i hope evangelicals will just remember that guys like this end up representing you to a lot of people.

something to think about when ya'll get on your highhorse about mainliners and their problems.

I have mixed emotions about the multi-site church, but my emotions aren't very mixed about young preachers who stand up and say stupid things. I think Perry's got a pretty good thing going, generally, and using multi-site (though he did use a pretty poor proof-text in Acts 8) is fine with me. But to attribute motives to people who see some legitimate concerns with multi-site is a big arrogant, and furthers my concerns about young preachers who, having gained a large following, seem to take that fact as license to say some unwise things. Perry will figure it out, let us hope and pray; he's a good guy, but even good guys say dumb things sometimes.

He is so wrong. But his concept is merely an extension out of many of the assumptions of institutionalized church. In a pulpit/pew oriented church of 150, 75% or more of the men will not have a mutual, two-way relationship with their preacher who stands behind their pulpit live. Multi-site reduces this down even more, but 75% or more is still very bad and needs systemic change in order to fix it. How many studies do we need to see that show that discipleship from "the pastor" is usually a bottom rung priority for his time?

When money/paycheck is involved in "pastoring", there WILL BE competition and jealousy, among many other very sad side effects. 1 Cor. 9 talks full circle about the right to be paid AND ends with refusing the right to be paid, and the freedom and rewards that go with ministering "free of charge".

We can't cluck our tongues too much at Perry if what we do is substantially warped.

ohhhh multisite churches... you had to get me going huh? As you can probably guess.... I'm dead set against them. This isn't to say that God can't speak through them and change lives. I think that this Noble guy is missing the entire point, especially in his exegesis of Acts 8. I'm against multi-site churches, not because I'm scared of being "shown up" by a better teacher and expositor of the Word. I praise God that there are people who can teach far better me. I'm against multi-site, live feed teaching on the whole because biblical teaching is relational teaching. But what about the Epistles of the New Testament? Yes... they were letters sent out to various church communities. But even Paul repeatedly mentions that he would rather be with them in person, incarnationally. In fact, Paul yearned to be with these people. Can you be blessed by listening to a sermon on a live feed? Yes. Absolutely. But, where we have sidetracked as a Church culture, is that we need guys who can exposit and teach the Word, and then take us out INTO the world, OUTSIDE of the building. We need pastors to lead us practically as well as intellectually, which if we read the New Testament, the Apostles were very adept at doing. We desperately need more pastors who are hybrid pastor/theologians who will not only expound on Scripture, but GO and show us what it looks like to love the broken, heal the sick, bring hope, and proclaim the gospel while we walk alongside of them (like Paul did). I understand that not all are called to be teachers, and that teaching is in some senses different than the call of being a pastor (most people don't realize this), but if you really want to hit home with your teaching, then knowing your students and community is paramount. How can a teacher truly know the pulse of the community that they are teaching to, if they are simply projected via media, rather than through intimate relationships? How can you really know their needs, their sins, their struggles? What about accountability? What the teacher/preacher often seems to forget, is that they need this community for their spiritual needs and development just as equally as the listening community needs the teacher/preacher for their spiritual needs and development. The church community has a duty to listen to the preacher... but also to question the preacher. The church community rallies around their teacher to not only be fed spiritually, but to spur the teacher on and to ensure that he/or she is living out and practicing what they're preaching. This is part of what church community does. As for Acts 8, Mr. Noble is seriously stretching it. This (Acts 8) is not an example of "multi-site" churches; this is the Church being spread incarnationally, this is the living, breathing, persecuted, sinful yet forgiven Church and bride of Jesus Christ.

The fact of the matter is, probable 75% of preaching out there today is weak (And I'm being generous with this number... I also realize I probably just offended a few "teachers/preachers", and I'm not sorry). Does God still work through crappy, unthought through, non-relational, non-sacramental, theological-lite preaching in which the teacher probably didn't even spend time praying about? Yes, because he's God and works through broken vessels. But we're often settling for glass rather than diamonds. So if some people want to pump live feed sermons into multi-site churches, go for it. Once in awhile you'll find some dynamite teaching that will really bless you. But it's not relational, and our God who exists in a Trinitarian life of intimacy, love and relationship demands that our ministry reflect his Trinitarian nature, and that is what I, as a teacher, am striving for.

Listen people, the gospel is simply information. Whatever medium can be used to disseminate that information is acceptable "preaching."

Television takes images and beams them across the universe in a convenient, compelling, and captivating format. In fact, we can take the basic information of the gospel and make it EVEN BETTER, like adding zooming, panning, music, and special effects. All those things help words of Jesus save people even better.

In fact, I foresee a day when people won't be needed at all for communicating the gospel! Imagine the gospel being automatically beamed into our brains through subliminal advertisements. Better yet, imagine taking prenatal pills that would bond the gospel-code directly to your developing baby's dna. Now THAT's taking Acts 8 seriously.

Yup. That's the future. "Acts 8" prenatal vitamins! Someday everyone will have Christian babies, no people or preaching necessary.

This is some of the most arrogant and egregious statements I've heard stated from behind a pulpit.

Obviously his use of Acts 8 to make a hermeneutical leap to 21st century multi-site mega-churches is totally asinine. So stupid I am not even going to explain why, if you don't know why, you are in the same boat as this Perry Noble clown.

He totally misses the critique of the multi-site church: THE CHURCH IS A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY! Paul didnt preach at every damn church gathering, he equipped leaders and his leaders equipped leaders to go out as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to form new communities around the way of Jesus.

This Noble dude is the one that looks like he feels threatened. Hey Noble if your gig is so big and so right and so "annointed" then why do you even waste your time engaging the critique if you are so right?

He's a pastor?

He ought put on a decent shirt (at least) and comb his hair. He looks like a roadie who set up that elaborate side show that's behind him.

He's right in encouraging the spread of the gospel, but I have issues with almost everything else, like

* The straw man of the pastor who stands up in church and condemns another church.
* The insecurity of the pastor who has issues with multi-site
* His misuse of Acts 8. Sure seems possible that the "scattering" lead to the planting of new churches. I doubt that the apostles all met before they scattered and shared the same outline to preach, much less preached the exact same message

It's pretty clear that he hasn't engaged at all with any of the thoughtful critics of multi-site. Might I suggest he first start with the March/April eJournal from 9Marks where multi-site is discussed (pro and con). http://www.9marks.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID598014%7CCIID2297470,00.html

I've listened to Noble a few times, and it always feels like a particular brand of Southern Revival preaching. Not sure how much that plays into the message or tone and I could be way off.

It would be nice to see a thoughtful pro-multi-site voice. Pastor Noble ends up looking foolish in this clip. Maybe their answer is the pragmatic 'it works,' in which case they should own it and not couch it in bad exegesis. Can't argue with results...or can you?

It seems like all of the arguments for video venues (and multi-site church as it's often done) are pragmatic. Everyone's always talking about "what works."

Pragmatism is behind the concept of megachurch, too. What's the cost of doing "what works" when it's runs up against what the church is supposed to be?

I love multi site! I think is works and impacts others for Christ and I rejoice that we can and do use the technology to make it happen.

Here are the things I love,

1) I know many pastors who are gifted shepherds but not preachers, this gives them a chance to pastor without the pressure of preaching a sermon.

2) when done right, much emphasis, possibly more, is put on shepherding and discipleship. I think there are several churches doing this well.

3) Multi site helps us see the pastor is not just a holy talking head by emphasizing that the pastor in a community (church) is about equipping and shepherding.

4) It becomes economically more efficient than some other means of planting churches. Especially as the community expands.

5) It fosters other kinds of gifts without making the pastor in charge of everything.

I do not attend or pastor a multi site. I am a pastor in a church in California.

sounds like he himself needs to do repenting for taking shots at other pastors.

it seems to me that multi-site could be stronger if it wasn't a single personality "piped in" on a screen, but there was a commitment to real, collegial, shared teaching ministry by a team of teachers.

this way you could set out the teaching/planning for the year and have live teachers rotating through each site. Everyone eventually hears the same things.

Shared teaching at a Multi-site also could result in:

1. you break down the cult of personality that inevitably arises from single teacher systems,

2. you allow local sites to be properly contextualized to their zipcode while transmitting the particular dna of the larger church community,

3. you gain financial stability that frees a site to focus on ministry vs. classic church planting financial stress,

4.you foster a sense of christian identity that transcends the local expression of the local church while still celebrating the particulars of any given site. This supports an outward, missional orientation to all ministry tasks by framing them in something "bigger".

5. the security of clear accountability/support for site leaders

6.you model collaborative ministry that lives out the ideal of every member finding and doing their part in the work of the church.

I'm disappointed Url put this up. The video is a straw man, his words used to bait us into stupidity. The video adds nothing...I was really ready for the jugular. Disappointed in the pastor's "wisdom", Url's endorsement, and our Pavlovian response. Grrrr...God help us.

Ha! I was gong to respond, but I think Perry's had enough :)

By the way- let's distinguish between multi-site and video venues. Our community has multiple gatherings around town and the elders share the teaching rotation, with a main teaching elder at each site. As one commenter said "it seems to me that multi-site could be stronger if it wasn't a single personality "piped in" on a screen, but there was a commitment to real, collegial, shared teaching ministry by a team of teachers."

good distinction Bob - to Bil_'s point I am not sure that Url is endorsing Perry.

I think it's telling that it's very difficult to refer to these "multi-sites" as churches. Why? Does Perry or for that matter any other multi-site visionary lead these "sites" to become self-sufficent independent congregations? If a church, body of believers, is willing to receive their instruction of the Word from video, so be it. If they have no other choice then we have a problem.

Multi-site is when a preacher thinks he is so good that everyone everywhere needs to listen to him and send him tithes and offerings. It's called pride and arrogance.

Multi-site is when a preacher thinks he is so good that everyone everywhere needs to listen to him and send him tithes and offerings. It's called pride and arrogance

OUCH!

I was going to offer some critiques of the video, but I can't add my voice to the anger and vitriol that is the comments section above...

Can't we at least grant the guy a modicum of good intentions? And then just critique in a spirit of collegiality?

I don't think the guy on the video is reading these comments, but if he were, do you think we would be encouraging some deep thought, or provoking a defensive posture?

The Great Commission Update At A Glance

As of today, the world situation is like a room filled with 6 people: 4 of whom do not know/believe in Jesus Christ while the remaining 2 are Christians who are always at each other's throats.

I agree that there are plenty of insecure pastors out there that take potshots at "successful" ministries--but it also seems that Perry's insecurities (about being a multi-site church) come out in this video as well.

Accusing other pastor's critical of the multi-site movement as "losing their annointing", insecure, and dare I say pussies (fat kids who don't like seeing others win) is silly. Either the multi-site method of evangelism is effective and stands on its own merits or it doesn't.

There must be better pro-video venue posts than this. I am not a Perry Noble fan, but to put that against the thoughtful, reflective comments of Bob and Shane does everyone a disservice.

I do understand the difficulty though.

Getting a video venue pastor to sit-down with you to talk about this thoughtfully is tough. They'll use the less thoughtful comments in this section to reinforce their position and become even less likely to engage in real conversation under the impression/guise that people are unified in the body or are critical of them.

at some point these folks seem isolate yourself to such like minded folks that they can no longer hear or give thoughtful responses.

He's right about competition and calling out other pastors, but what a jerk for doing the exact same thing himself. And the Acts 8 thing was stupid.

The only thing more boring than preaching is meta-preaching. Is this really you expressing yourself through your body, Jesus?

Byron's right - REALLY poor proof text. And let's be frank - this is about the "fat kid" finding a game he can win at. Kind of pathetic to me.

I am sorry the church has succumd to this. What happens if someone is sick, or is dead or is involved in deep sin and needs to repent, do we get to watch the video>the sorry your sick video the sorry your dead video, or sorry you are thinking of killing yourself or someone else video? I cannot believe my own minister is thinking of doing this. He was a good man, wanting only to take good care of his flock in his own church, till he started to getting invites to talk to video church gurus, who convinced him that he did not have to minister to people he did not approve of, and could send some weirdo convicts to preach to people in store fronts and stingy street corners. All the while letting weirdos collect money for booze and other assorted weirdos he looks down on.

I am sorry the church has succumd to this. What happens if someone is sick, or is dead or is involved in deep sin and needs to repent, do we get to watch the video>the sorry your sick video the sorry your dead video, or sorry you are thinking of killing yourself or someone else video? I cannot believe my own minister is thinking of doing this. He was a good man, wanting only to take good care of his flock in his own church, till he started to getting invites to talk to video church gurus, who convinced him that he did not have to minister to people he did not approve of, and could send some weirdo convicts to preach to people in store fronts and stingy street corners. All the while letting weirdos collect money for booze and other assorted weirdos he looks down on.

Legalism and hate. So funny how stirred up people get over this issue. They're not arguing about multi-site since they can be so different. Is it video that they don't like? Is it the fact that there are different locations? Perry does come off a little irritated, but none of the people posting here have his job. Kennedy was invited to 'rate' presidents of the past and he got super angry and asked 'how can they rate the presidents when none of them have sat in this seat?'. I think we should be slow to worry about Perry and focus on ourselves. There is nothing wrong with the speaker being on video. If you think it puts the pastor to 'distant' then whats the magic spiritual number? Maybe we should stop using microphones, so that it can only be as large as one can speak without amplification. That way, when Jesus wants to keep building his church, we can tell him that its getting too big. I know plenty of multi-site churches that DO have great shepherds at each location. It doesn't mean that the speaker has to also be the shepherd over every person. Do you really think Peter or James were the personal shepherds of everyone in their churches? What a joke!

Has casually come on a forum and has seen this theme. I can help you council. Together we can come to a right answer.