Further confirmation of Bell's struggles with, or intentional distortion of, teaching what the Bible actually says instead of reading into it whatever he wants from current situations.

How the heck does he get that teaching his followers that they must eat his body and blood leading many to abandon him means the same thing when we encourage women in leadership? What does that even mean?

What do you mean that ministry is not always up and to the right?

Telling ministers not to break the 10th commandment is a good message, but what is that other jumble you, or he, or both, are mixing in?

If I preached a message that I was the Eucharist to the world, I hope my crowd thinned out, because that is blasphemy. The point of Jesus message was to point people to him, not for us to be mini-saviors.

Sometimes a thin crowd is the result of truth preached, but sometimes it's the result of bad preaching. How do we know the difference?

I'm not sitting around and waiting on Bell to tell me.

What nonsense.

John 6 (eat my flesh and drink my blood) is about being a pacifist, women leadership and having doubts? The eucharist is all believers given to the world? Keeping sabbath is picking a random day and not answering email?

Is the gospel that boring that we have to make up New Law?

exactly the kind of things that needs to be talked about at catalyst.

A great mixture of truth and nonsense.

Glad some of you guys can judge an entire sermon, better yet, Bell's entire theology on a brief post of synopsis! Keep it classy, fellas!

Maybe we should mix in a little grace every now and then. Just a thought.

How can any of us even begin to respond to this post which involves such a brief set of comments that surely were shared in a much larger context of information and ideas.

Take it easy people - unless we heard the whole thing these comments don't help us at all in terms of really understanding the core of what he said - whatever that was. I would suggest that the original summary of Bell's talk is very weak - unclear - random and unhelpful.

Thank you so much for this post. I believe you speak for many people who feel the same way you do. These mega churches may give like the woman with the offering, but I find most of them so 'me' centered, it is very uncomfortable. They are too comfortable!! One only needs one good mentor in their life to tell them about leadership!

Typical banter...come on, Urlites, let's raise the bar a little bit.

May God bless Rob Bell, and us, as we proclaim truth. May He rebuke us when we don't.

In fact, I have to say it seems that Url is becoming a bit of a troll itself lately, always looking to incite our baser instincts vs. calling us to higher dialog. I guess you have to use what works.

I thought that a Summary post about a message was supposed to contain what the message was about. You know, hit the high points.

So I guess my critique is either one of two things. If this does summarize what Bell talked about it seems to me like a continuation (I have read all his books and listened to many of his sermons, not all bad, some good ideas, but often, very often, confused and distorted clear meanings of scripture and a break from biblical orthodoxy)of bad teaching.

If it doesn't capture the main idea then it is a critique of the author for making Bell look bad.

Bottom line, I didn't say I hate the guy. I didn't say he is evil. I didn't say he doesn't know and love Jesus. I said much of his teaching is hogwash.

Isn't a comment spread supposed to be a discussion about the contents of the post? Doesn't that mean we get to say when we disagree with something? Or does that only extend to people that you disagree with? If you disagree with me, I'd love to hear your reasons why. Let's open the scripture and examine it's teaching.

For example, I'd love to hear how Bell used the teaching of Jesus in John 6:22-71 to show how tough it is to equip women for ministry leadership? Is there anyone who could genuinely tell me this isn't reading current hot button issues into the Bible which has nothing to do with that particular issue. That is dangerous ground and I'm calling a spade a spade.

I still don't get why people react so viscerally to anything Bell says. And certainly, unless you are also at Catalyst, you can't critique Bell's use of certain scripture passages based on such a cursury summary.

What I read here is that his main point is that when you follow the Way of Jesus, people won't always like what you have to say. But the reward is resting in your love of God and his calling for you, not in trying to chase after ill-defined "success."

Rob Bell is far from the only voice who has said these things; Henri Nouwen comes to mind for me.

On Bell Bashing - The bigger you are, the bigger the target. What would we say about the Bell bashers if we had access to all (or even snippets) of what they said in Bible studies or sermons?

On John 6: Caleb, et al. I read the summary before your comments. I NEVER came to the conclusion that Bell was arguing a) for women in ministry based on John 6, nor b) that we're "mini-saviors" in Jesus' place. This was his point: just as in John 6, Jesus started talking about difficult matters and the crowd thinned, so it is today. The crowds thin when the conversation rises above Glen Beck-style yelling. Or, to use Bell's example, talking among Christians who think "Christians must be pro-military Republicans" about the very real possibility that Jesus commends non-violence (not war) upon all his disciples - that discussion is unsettling and people will walk away because it is so.

Other: Bell raises the perennial issue I think we'll struggle with for the next century or so: how do we celebrate more people connecting to Jesus Christ without sacrificing truth and hard discipleship to connect those new people? It's the old quantity vs. quality debate. It's good that someone like Bell brings it up...however, I often find it a little disingenuous when people from large churches tell everyone else "numbers don't matter." I want more people connected to Jesus and Christian community as much as the next guy - just don't tell that numbers don't matter.

Casey, A couple of things. First, I am going off of the summary in this post, not the actual sermon, which I clearly spell out. I am criticizing either, what Bell said as represented here or the author for misrepresenting Bell. What the summary said was:

"Rob pointed to Jesus, who told his followers “you must eat my body and drink my blood,” and many disciples no longer followed him. If you talk about war, or about women and encouraging them in their leadership, or about faith and it's inextricable dance with doubt, the crowds will thin. (And the applause at Catalyst was tentative and uncertain, an indication of the accuracy of Bell’s point). Ministry is not always up and to the right."

And you get nothing about women in ministry here? If Bell is talking about encouraging women in leadership in the roles the Bible prescribes, who would walk away? All evangelicals believe that women play a valuable and important role in the life of the body, unless they are a weird Kook. What do you think he was talking about?

Second, I'm sure if you had all my teaching and writing you would find lots to disagree with (I'm sure I would as well). But Bell doesn't care what I say on some stupid blog thread, I hope he has some people close to him to correct him and admonish him of some of the gross errors in his writing, that isn't my place. I don't know the man. I am trying to persuade anyone else who reads silly blog threads of what I perceive as errors and distortions in Bell's writing, or at least make them stop and think.

With more power comes more responsibility, which is from Spider Man, but Paul taught the same thing. Good teachers are worthy of double honor, bad teachers are worthy of rebuke and correction. Bell is creatively using every means possible to get his message to the world, so those who disagree can do the same.

Once again, isn't that the point of an open comment thread on a blog post? Wouldn't it be boring if no "Bell Bashers," or as I like to call them, people with a mind who are willing to express an opinion, showed up? Have I not been an ethical blog poster and criticized the ideas, not the man personally? Is this not a place for conversation?

P.S. I still haven't seen a good argument to refute my original posts on Bell's ideas.

Ok, so it's clear that Rob Bell is a polarizing figure who touched on some polarizing topics (women in ministry, politics). Naturally, we should expect to hear critiques from those who disagree with him on politics and the role of women (probably most evangelicals) as well as support from those who agree with him on these matters.

I would be interested in hearing from either:

1) A complementarian who finds value in what Bell is saying here

or

2) An egalitarian who has a helpful critique of Bell's teaching

Yes, right thought is inseparable from right action - belief to life - faith to faithfulness

But, the new generation of Pharisees is bumming me out. During a recent online interview with Mark Driscoll people were calling in wanting to know his stand on women in leadership and predestination. Why not ask him about his experiences planting a church in one of the most un-churched areas in the country, his success at developing strong lay-leadership, and what it must have been like for a young Christian to become a pastor?

No, instead there is a credential check before we listen to anything he says.

There are a lot of posts with people bemoaning that Gladwell and Albom were invited to speak at Catalyst. I guess we don't have anything to learn from them.

Then, Bell mentions some hot button issues, not building a case or really advocating one way or the other, we get a string of posts with people all worn out worrying about the orthodoxy of the illustrations rather than the point he was making: a deep satisfaction that leads to not coveting is a gift from God proceeding out of the earlier commandments.

My wife quotes a friend of hers:
"I hope you can hear my music rather than focusing on my noise"

OK, having ranted about all that, a little confession. If God gave me a vision of a sheet filled with unclean creatures descending from heaven and told me to kill and eat, I would probably be just like Peter and say "no." Or, at least until God slapped me around enough to get my attention.

Grace and peace,
Paul

It was a very nice idea! Just wanna say thank you for the information you have shared. Just continue writing this kind of post. I will be your loyal reader. Thanks again.

To some of the Bell bashing going on....he is not saying we literally the Eucharist with a capital E but a "eucharist" a gift given to the world, poured out for their use....wouldn't we as ministers agree with that as key to our vocation...

Why do we have to bash people..where is the dialogue.....there is value in all positions, but I am just disappointed to see such erroneous misinterpretations of Bell's words...now what someone says before you critique it...that is the only fair way to critique one another.

Thanks a lot for the info... Really has much to think about. I'm not sure if I've understood it right, but the sermon, all those words said by Bell are so in the context of our life, that it even amazes me..Anyway, thanks a lot one more time for the opportunity to think over my life.