I have found Andy Stanley's work on "Systems" to be very useful. In fact, it helped realize some assumptions that we were making at our church that were not realistic. I'm glad you posted this.

I don't know Andy's teaching on systems, but I didn't hear a thing about the Holy Spirit. Isn't He the one who changes people?

And doesn't the Spirit aim to glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14)?

So could it be that the glory of Christ isn't being proclaimed and taught in every inch of our churches? And that because of this people don't fall in love with Jesus.

So for example, when they hear that marriage is about the gospel (Eph 5:22), and thus about glorifying Jesus, they don't care. Because they haven't gone crazy about Jesus yet.

We try to motivate them by telling them all these things to make marriage better. Yet we never give them the foundational motivation of the glory of Christ. We SEEM to often try to use all these means - hymns, modest dress, culturally relevant music or drama, systems(??) - without giving them Jesus to stun them, causing them to drop to the knees of their lives in living worship.

And here's the catch: The gate is narrow. Don't test the appropriateness of the means (proclaiming Christ's gospel glory) by numerical results. Few find this entry way. Just be faithful to it. And those lives will be changed by the Spirit.

Sorry for sounding at all overly pious. And again, I don't have any idea what Andy Stanley teaches about systems, but I just heard no mention of the Spirit - and that just about flipped me out.

Grace.

I'm thinking everyone at LM and CT need to listen a little longer to the Hauerwas interview that was posted below on "Leadership."

I've found the few Andy Stanley books on leadership that I have read, to fall into what Hauerwas refers to as "perverse."

I wonder what system we can create that allows the Holy Spirit to move more significantly?

Maybe our greatest system begins by serving others, humility, and going before God in prayer for ourselves and others daily.

But then maybe we need to define ministry success...

You are the Church!
Robert Angison

of course the Holy Spirit transforms our lives ultimately. But God has given us systems to transform behavior as well. How many Holy Ghost filled people have you known that are honestly "crazy" and under-managed systems that God intends to produce order? The family is God's ultimate environment to produce children who will develop habits of holiness. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater or "over-spiritulize" transformation peeps.

I am currently part of a community group based out of Andy Stanley's church and I have been appalled at the lack of understanding of the Gospel, Bible history, and grace that it is failing to address in its members and group leaders. There is no accountability on what material is being taught and the singles groups in the church are notorious for being hook-up vehicles for their members and leaders.

Andy is an empire builder, chasing the idols of relevancy and hipness. He has decried the notion of the Pastor-as-shepherd model given to us in Scripture as outdated and irrelevant, instead seeking the Pastor/CEO model of business growth in an interview with Christianity Today.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/currenttrendscolumns/leadershipweekly/cln70528.html

He is currently trying to raise $5MM from his flock to build a bridge into their facility because people find it difficult to get in and out after services and they aren't able to fully cram the maximum number of people into his church.

Stanley lives in a multi-million dollar home while his flock is facing record jobless rates, foreclosures, etc. He is fleecing God's sheep in exchange for the riches and status of being a mega-church pastor.

Christianity is under attack from these emergent leaders who measure success in attendance, programs and dollars, while God's people are being starved of the Theology of Grace right under their noses.