Why is it that the trendy Christian sub-culture has to latch onto every sensational statement Driscoll makes, which encompasses about 3% of what he preaches? Why is there no discussion about any other parts on his teaching? Maybe things like worship and justification and holy living are just too boring for blogs and news stories.

@Matt.

well, when someone builds their reputation by flaming people and being outrageous, it's hard for people to wade through to anything else.

just say'n.

It's also worth noting that this clip on YouTube was released by Driscoll's church. They did the editing. They decided to promote this part of his sermon rather than the more "boring" parts about justification, holy living, and worship. So, Driscoll and Mars Hill seem to be the ones encouraging the "sensational statements" and resulting controversy.

Today it is "Avatar" that is the spawn of Satan promoting paganism and tomorrow it will be "The Veggie Tales - The Pirates that don't do anything" promoting slothfulness.

In the most respectful tone I can muster up, please Mark Driscoll, stop saying things for shock value, knowing controversy will ensure and try being known for something else. Seems his church edited the video specifically to package this piece of the message.

But oh wait, maybe Mark thinks he is THE curaotor of cultural exegesis. I mean he knows art right? He says he has "I have 2 home theatres 3 TIVO's. And our film crew was just down in LA at Universal Studios shooting on the Spartacus set getting footage for our Good Friday service."

Yikes.

If he knows art...art is in trouble.

I suppose that's true, C.A. However, I think that bloggers would pick on the minority statements Driscoll makes even if Mars Hill didn't release a snippet of it.

Forget Driscoll for a moment.

Does the film promote paganism or not?

It does, that's pretty obvious.

So, who cares who said it or how? Are we going to discuss the movie or the messenger?

@Matt

Why would Mars Hill edit an entire sermon and pick out the few minutes that they KNEW would start a controversy if they didn't want exactly that...a controversy. Unfortunately the other things that Driscoll teaches get over shadowed by the outrageous comments that get made, and then seemingly, distributed by the church themselves.

I am just not sure it does promote paganism. There are multiple Christian movie reviewers that suggest that it does not. So I think it is a valid discussion and not a sure thing. Driscoll starts with the assumption that everyone agrees with him. That just isn't true.

I felt the movie was disturbingly Hindu; but what can you expect when it’s called Avatar? Honestly, I felt like I was watching a show about people in a country in the 10/40 window who are desperately lost in idolatry.

However, it was still fiction about blue people on a planet in outer space worshiping a made up deity (not a deity worshiped by any religion). To call it demonic is extreme and unhelpful. Of course idol worship is demonic, but that’s not what Driscoll said or how people took his comments. And the reality is, most people probably will just see it as science fiction religion. Theology is the worldview many of us have who are in ministry – we see it in movies where others don’t, and I think Driscoll forgot that in attacking this movie. Really, the odds that someone will watch a movie about a fictitious religion practiced by blue people and try to find something like it to follow is slim!

Well, I guess Url took exception to my first post...his blog, his rules...wish he clue me in on what his rules are...I thought the post was appropriate.

Anyway, Mark follows a long line of others who have done the same thing...except that they complained about Lord of The Rings, Narnia, etc as being inspired by the devil. I don't know...seems that fantasy/sci-fi is of the devil if one were to judge the response by Mark and the other pastors who think the same way.

As far as reviews of movies go, I thought this observation quite accurate and quite humorous
http://failblog.org/2010/01/10/avatar-plot-fail/
So we need to throw Pocohontas into the discussion as well:)

IBut seriously, in terms of what messages the movie gives, we have to remember it is art. How people interact with art is always varied. But there are definite examples that trouble me in terms of affecting people's souls. We can dissect the philosophical ideas, but I am more distraught over reactions of family members who say things like, "I wish I was one of the Navi." Seems harmless right?

Check out this link, http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/11/avatar.movie.blues/index.html

Don't tell me this movie does not have spiritual implications that are being used by the enemy. Of course I watched the movie and was able to see through all the nonsense. Many will just enjoy the special effects. But in terms of art, it definitely has the potential to erode or invade onto people's soul's in a way that is harmful.

So overall, Driscoll's point not only has theoretical or ideological merit, but there is actual cultural data to back it up. Maybe this is not the most scientific data, but its data worth considering.

I'm taking a wild leap here, but maybe Driscoll said what he did because he believes it's true. If you heard the whole sermon he was saying it's demonic because it's idolatry, or false religion as it promotes a spirituality without Jesus. Do I fully agree? No. But if you use the clip as an invitation to seek the entire context, you'll find it's more than just a publicity stunt.

This whole conversation (in the comments) seems to be missing the point: This was a successful "sermon". Mark Driscoll got what he wanted: publicity. CT got what it wanted: Page views.

Does watching/liking/condemning "Avatar" have anything to do with following Jesus of Nazareth? Of course not. Were Jesus alive he'd be out healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and speaking of love.

But this sermon and this post have served their purpose. Good on them.

Dear Pastor Driscoll
Paul is not Christ.......He did not die on the cross for your sins....there are seminaries available to assist you in filling in your Christian history.....To read Paul outside of the secret society pantheistic context is to misread Paul!

We all hate Satan, no one wants to go to hell but really? Blue Creatures? Just preach Christ and Him crucified and quit driving people away from the Church!!!!

Does Avatar have some theological problems? Of course it does, but then it also wasn't promoted as a Christian movie. As a preacher promoting Christian values, however, the fact that Driscoll brags about having two home theater systems and three DVRs makes me look forward to hearing his next message on greed, gluttony and consumerism.

I find Driscoll's rant ironic because it violates the principle of cultural engagement that they claim to hold to and named their church after - Paul's sermon in Athens.

What is really more helpful, to call the movie satanic, or to ask "what is it in this movie that speaks to people" and then direct how that connects to Jesus.

It seems the model of Paul on Mars Hill would be to do that. The way Driscoll deals with Avatar would be tantamount to Paul's sermon on Mars Hill being "YOU GUYS WORSHIP IDOLS, THAT'S FROM DEMONS AND NOT JESUS." But that doesn't seem to be what Paul does...

Just a thought.

What disturbs me is not that he sees the paganism of Avatar (which is very clumsy anyways) but that he completely misses the colonial themes of the movie!!

He mentions the 'cultural mandate' but totally misses (or ignores) the cruel, oppressive regimes that European 'Christians', protestant and Catholic, have set up in the past using the 'cultural mandate' as an excuse for violence and exploitation.

What disturbs me is not that he sees the paganism of Avatar (which is very clumsy anyways) but that he completely misses the colonial themes of the movie!!

He mentions the 'cultural mandate' but totally misses (or ignores) the cruel, oppressive regimes that European 'Christians', protestant and Catholic, have set up in the past using the 'cultural mandate' as an excuse for violence and exploitation.

teletubbies, sponge bob, and avatars, oh my!

Something he said at the beginning of his talk.
' to be a consumer instead of generous'
something he says near the end of his talk
' I have TWO home theater systems'

enough said.....

I'm not sure why there is such a stink about what driscoll says, other than that he characterizes paganism as demonic (which the Bible does as well). While I think his emotional evocation is just as bad as that of Satan through the movie (his words, not mine), I can see why he believes what he says. At least he has conviction about it.

My problem with this schpeel is that using the same argument, I can suggest no Christian should ever watch anything on TV since almost every show comes from secular humanism, which is just as warped as eastern thought.

Good point, Jon Snyder. At least Avatar's pagan mysticism is overt and obvious. The fact that it is so obviously not Christian makes it less dangerous, IMO.

It's that which passes in our culture as "Christian" but is actually just secular/pagan/consumerism masquerading as Christianity--that's far more dangerous. And yet few church leaders speak up about those things. In fact, many of them endorse them.

Mark did not say boycott the movie, in fact he said go see it. Go see it for what it is.

His words were accurate in terms of the messages in the movie. He is right about satan and how he works...

His tone was not bashing the movie either, but rather saying here is the message and where the message comes from.

He is right on his reading of the movie.
For me, it was a few hours of walking in a pagan's shoes, an interesting cross-cultural experience.

We need communicators on the same level, the CSLewises, Tolkiens, Chestertons for this day and age. Christianity is more beautiful, and certainly more truthful

Not sure what the hub bub is over other than a chance to take a few pokes at Driscoll. I'm still not sure why that seems so fun; it certainly doesn't seem profitable.
While I might disagree with Driscoll's tone and may not see the world in quite as black and white terms as he does, I respect what he's doing as the pastor of a church in this clip: he's guiding his flock and helping them make sense of the world in which we live. That seems a rather pastoral thing to do, IMO.

A Consistency Test for Mark Driscoll and for Everyone

Given: "Avatar" and "The Da Vinci Code" are both un-Christian movies.

("Avatar" flirts with the idea that worship of nature can replace religion. "The Da Vinci Code" claims, though a work of fiction, to be meticulously researched to convey the impression that it is based on facts, such as, among others: Jesus is not God, was married to Mary Magdalene, got her pregnant, and the two had a daughter.)

If I am "turned on" by both movies, then I have a consistent secular mind.

If I am not "turned on" by both movies, then I have a consistent Christian mind.

If I am "turned on" by one, but not by the other, then I have an inconsistent mind.

Given: "The Da Vinci Code" is more offensive than "Avatar."

If I claim to be a Christian, and...

If I am offended more by "The Da Vinci Code" than by "Avatar," then I have a consistent Christian mind.

If I am offended more by "Avatar" than by "The Da Vinci Code," then I need to take stock of my Christian integrity.

Eerily, while "The Da Vinci Code" seeks to throw out an "old superstar," "Avatar" aims to throw in a "new one."

@still,

what if I'm not offended by any of these movies because I don't expect movies produced by people who don't share my religious beliefs/convictions to generate films with content that does reflect my views?

"what if I'm not offended by any of these movies because I don't expect movies produced by people who don't share my religious beliefs/convictions to generate films with content that does reflect my views?"

And that's where I'm at...neither one of those movies offended my sensibilities since...and here's the thing I agree with Nathan on...and lets be honest with ourselves...a whole lot of what comes out of Hollywood is...well, at best...moderately entertaining...at worst...well, leaving me with the thought of "really, someone actually thought this would be a good idea for a movie, and they spent money making it?"
Even Passion of the Christ was terrible, bad scholarly work, already disproven mythologies, over the top S&M that had no business being in a general consumption film...and that movie was aimed at us, Christians!
So here's my take...if you, the film viewer, are moved emotionally by a movie...take a few moments to figure out why the movie affected you...because that is the goal of the director...to get you to buy into the movie emotionally.
Find out what that little knot was resonated with you, and say, "oh yeah, cool, that was neat how he got me to buy into the movie." But if you walk away from the movie seriously saying, "oh hey, yeah, I want to live in the wilds hugging trees, and waiting for pixie dust to fall on me from some tree in the middle of forest!" then you got other issues that need to be dealt with...like re-attaching yourself back to reality.

A movie is little more than story telling with moving pictures...if the viewer is incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality...perhaps that person should avoid movies altogether and stick to books.

Nathan,

"Jesus is not God, was married to Mary Magdalene, got her pregnant, and the two had a daughter."

Amid such volley of lies, insults, and ridicule, a piercing question of His echoes in my mind: "Do you love me?"

Insignificant and powerless person as I am in the scheme of things, the most I can personally do, as a Christian, is to feel His pain and be offended.

It cost $300 M to make Avatar with another $150 M in promotional costs. According to MSNBC the film has now grossed over $1B worldwide.

You could buy a lot of rice and beans with that. Fund a lot of homeless shelters. Buy a lot of anti-Malaria mosquito nets. Drill a lot of wells. Provide a lot of HIV-AIDS medication. Make a real difference in Haiti. Or New Orleans. Or Malawi or amongst our aboriginal peoples. Yes, there's a lot of gospel that could be shared with that kind of money.

A $450 Million dollar... movie... more than a Billion dollars revenue on a... movie. Maybe that's what Satan is doing. Or maybe it's just us. I'm not sure where to draw that line anymore.

But then, conversations about the real issues in a thoughtful, post-adolescent way don't drive page views, do they? Mark Driscoll's publicity hounds, Out of Ur's bottom line, me buying $10 snacks at the theater - we're all in together, aren't we?

@still,

but lies from those who are in darkness.

it's like being offended at the victim of a murder.

the whole idea that we should evaluate things through the filter of "offense" is, IMHO, part of the problem.

instead of being litigants in the controversies of our day, why not be something different?

does mounting a loving response to those false claims about JEsus demand I get my blood pressure up?

You're not insignificant or powerless. there are friends, neighbors and co-workers around us who we can engage with when those things are offered to them.

Would Driscoll's comments on Avatar be consistent, from a sensationalist perspective, with Rob Bell's book entitled "Sex God"? (If you want to sell books, who could think of a more effective title?)

It's possible that I was dazzled by Satan's graphics, but I thought the film was great and had a very positive message.

There is a Biblical mandate to care for and steward the earth, which the film supports. And while we don't want to go to far down the Eastern route, the Bible isn't short of metaphors that suggest a connection between living things - "How long must this land mourn? Even the grass in the fields has withered" says Jeremiah. "The wild animals and birds have disappeared because of the evil in the land."

Knowing Driscoll's love of all things macho, I imagine he relates most to the military character who wants to lay waste to the landscape, so I'm not surprised he disliked the film.

Jeremy, I think you have discovered the reason for the last round of global warming with this scripture quote, "How long must this land mourn? Even the grass in the fields has withered" says Jeremiah. "The wild animals and birds have disappeared because of the evil in the land."

What do you suppose the 'evil in the land' was?

Nathan,

In our conversation, I can already catch a glimpse of the approaching crossroad, within a stone's throw, where one road sign reads TO EMPATHY and the other TO ANTIPATHY.

I feel both of us don't wish to get to that point and part ways.

Instead, let's take a journey Home through the narrow-less-traveled road in oneness of our minds and hearts in Jesus' Name.

Avatar the most satanic? What about Pocohantas?
http://failblog.org/2010/01/10/avatar-plot-fail/

I love it ... he has two home theaters and three TiVo's. And his church is traveling to Universal to shoot footage for Good Friday. Why did he not just say, "I have a ton of cash, and so does my church."

@still,

i'm sorry you feel that way.

i certainly don't have any antipathy toward you. or see any good reason to have any...

peace,

nathan

Dear Nathan,

As a token of our mutually-edifying conversation, let me share with you this story.

>>

During the First World War a soldier (let's call him Nathan - I'm smiling) in the trenches saw his friend (let's call him David) out in no-man's land - the ground between their trenches and those of the enemy - stumble and fall in a hail of bullets.

Nathan said to his officer, "May I go, sir, and bring him in?"

But the officer refused. "No one can live out there," he said. "I should only lose you as well."

Disobeying the order, Nathan went to try and save his friend, for they had been like David and Jonathan throughout the whole war. Somehow Nathan got David on his shoulder and staggered back to the trenches, but Nathan himself lay mortally wounded and David was dead.

The officer was angry. "I told you not to go," he said. "Now I have lost both of you. It was not worth it."

With dying breath, Nathan said, "But it was worth it, sir."

"Worth it!" said the officer. "How could it be? Your friend is dead and you are mortally wounded."

Nathan shrank from the reproach, but looking up into his officer's face he said, "It was worth it, sir, because when I got to him he said, 'NATHAN, I KNEW YOU'D COME.'"

>>

Jesus said,"I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." John 15:15

If you play the role of Nathan and put Jesus in the role of David in the story, the scene smacks of "The Da Vinci Code" case where Jesus, out in a no-man's land (our present world), stumbles and falls in a hail of lies, insults and ridicule. I hope Jesus would say, "Nathan, I knew you'd come."

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

On the other hand, if you play the role of David and put Jesus in the role of Nathan in the story, the unfolding scene smacks of striking biblical parallelism - a tragedy to the bitter end - at a glance, so it seems.

"...we have been united with Him like this in His death..."

But, lo and behold! The "greatest story ever told" has a happy ending. For God so loved the world that..."we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection." Romans 6:5

God bless us!

Let him who has two home theater systems give to him who has none.

Blue ears back, mouth open showing feline teeth. Hisssssssss. Boy Mark you really do take yourself seriously. I bet ticket sales will plummet now. :p

Dave: that was awesome! :D

I'm not sure that Avatar claimed to be a depiction of Christianity or Christian culture or American culture for that matter. It never made any claims! There may have been some subtle parallels but ultimately it's purpose was to tell a story and that's exactly what it did.

Pastor Driscoll is right on the money. More people need to stand up and say what is right, not tickle people's ears!

Why is everyone getting all bothered about what this guys says? In the grand scheme of things, he's not well known. There are far better evangelists to listen to.

For all the Driscoll supporters/people who attend Mars Hill, I would love if they could shed some light on these inconistencies.

Mars Hill screens movies at their churches quite regularly. District 9 screens this month. Another blog I read on this topic has a commenter that said Mars Hill screen movies like Akira, Spirited Away, and The Matrix - all movies with themes that are full of Eastern philosphy and religion.

Again, Mark Driscoll shows how out of touch he really is. And in my opinion, his comments on things like this ARE a big deal. US Media are doing pieces on Driscoll all the time. His words matter, and his comments on society matter because people are listening. And most importantly non-christians who are turned off by these kinds of rants are listening.

What a shame. He had a great opportunity to engage the movie and instead took the cheap way out.

The biggest piece of irony regarding this whole rant...Mars Hill always has a site called www.cinemagogue.com that has a favourable review of Avatar.

Nice job Mark!

I'm enjoying everyone's blog comments, I'm new to blogging so I'll try to keep my comments short. Avatar 3D was fun, but like I told my 82 yo aunt who came with me, I shoulda waited for the DVD. Though we are native american, and I work for a tribe deeply involved in cleaning up a Superfund mess - the depiction of greedy miners was shallow, they generally are much worse. Deep evil and deep good are not easily described - certainly not by a block buster. I love mother earth, I love our Holy Trinity and Saviour/Messiah Yeshua, and He used creation to find me. Now I see the New Jerusalem has beauty and glory beyond the best of Hollywood's graphic imagery. I only wish folks would never fall prey to a sense of Hollywood glitz ever honestly coming close to representing just how wonderful, how good, how complete creation and our Creator/G-d of all is. May His name be blessed. Avatar had its moments; but when I pray as I walk along an undeveloped part of my rez, with the eagle nesting; when my boss and I institute a remediation solution, paid for by a potentially responsible party (mining company), or when I am humbled by better understanding the great humility of Christ -those are not an Avatar moment. BTW -I'm following Christ, but still new to it, so please bear with me. Thanks!

What I love about Driscoll is that his church puts this stuff up on YouTube. It is obvious that the church edits videos which promote controversy, and it is difficult for me to not come up with a cynical explanation for why they do this. Is it sensational? What sort of crowd does it draw? Why promote these few minutes of a sermon and not the parts which contain spiritual heft? If a pastor is a spiritual director, is this the optimal may to provide spiritual direction? Did the Holy Spirit instruct him to speak about the evils of Avatar?

Is it possible to take the tact of Flannery O'Connor toward art, when she says, "When a book leaves your hands, it belongs to God. He may use it to save a few souls or to try a few others, but I think that for the writer to worry is to take over God's business"? Why worry about what happens when someone watches Avatar? Is this what Jesus taught in His sermon on the mount? Is Driscoll's tact that of one which trusts the Holy Spirit? Must all art be in proper alignment with one's theology to receive commendation?

Just as Kierkegaard noted that there are gradations in how one approaches life, likewise, I think there are gradation in how one approaches art.

Kierkegaard said most are aesthetics, they approach life with one question in mind, how to gain pleasure and avoid pain. Likewise, I see many approach art in a similar manner.

Kierkegaard said that some reject the question of the aesthetic and instead become an ethicist. They adopt a philosophy: Christianity, Communism, Islam, Taoism, or Libertarianism and according to that system, they make decisions about life, not in terms of pleasure or pain, but in terms of "Is it good?" or "Is it bad?" (according to the adopted system). Likewise, I see a handful do the same with art. In my opinion, Driscoll does this.... See More

Finally, Kierkegaard said that some transcend both the question of pleasure or pain, and the question of right and wrong. These that do are very few. They are what Kierkegaard called the religious. They do not follow self. They do not follow an ethical system. They listen and follow God.

Kierkegaard duly notes, those closest to God are sometimes told by God to violate one's ethical system. His example is Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. From my observation, there are many more which Kierkegaard does not note. For example, Elijah was provided for by God through unclean birds, God instructed Isaiah to take off all his clothes and wander for three years naked as a sign and a wonder, Jesus was hung from a tree (a curse among those in his religion), and Peter was told to eat of unclean meat.

Christianity, though it is too often ethical system, in my opinion, it should be far more imaginative, engaged, and transcendent than asking whether something is right or wrong. Driscoll can do as he pleases, but I pray for the expansive and creative Spirit of God to overwhelm him and use for God's glory that which his ethics would have him reject and attack. I praise God for a life lived with this primary thought in mind, "God, I trust you. I live for your glory. What shall you have me to do?"

I went to his church for a while and even stayed at the church house for several months. Now I understand why some of them were so arrogant and critical of everyone else. They slammed mainstream christianity, movies, food, etc etc etc but couldn't handle criticism themselves. In fact I left the church emotionally wounded. I would call the drugs and the drunken Bible studies at the house way more satanic than Avatar. He sounds more like Paul than Jesus. And it all makes sense now. Paul loved fights.

Wow...Driscoll makes some basic comments about a film (which he could have made about most) and many start to whine and complain. Folks, wake up. The Bible says:

"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this...to keep oneself unstained from the world."

Are we really trying to find ways to justify getting stained by the world's pagan philosophy.

Driscoll is absolutely right. I didnt even notice the things he was talking about in the movie when i first saw it but as he spoke more i realized that its true, satan is using fantastic and flashy things such as movies to get in the way of us and Jesus. Driscoll isn't saying Christians should never go see a movie again, hes trying to warn his congregation to guard their hearts against satan's advances. Proverbs 4:23 tells us to be careful of this.

a friend of mine has decided to hate Pastor Driscoll because of this small part of a greater message. His hate stems from the fact that the only bits of Driscoll's sermons he has seen are this clip on avatar, and another one on how stupid video games are. It amazes me to see my friend be more willing to accept the world's point of view that Driscoll is radical as are all True Christians. that Driscoll should focus on more important things than warning his congregation to guard their hearts. It blows my mind how some "christians" can believe that some sort of middle ground between the life Jesus calls us to live and the life the world wants us to live. Jesus is asking for all of us, all the time.