People Andrew's age, Christian or not, have much energy and passion. I think in today's age of hyper-critique-ism, critical analysis, and information overload (read: knowledge of so many other "successful" or "meaningful" ministries), that energy ends up being focused toward demands for change as opposed to action toward change.

Many of us "know" how things and people, and the church SHOULD be, some of us can very compellingly speak about it, few desire to lead others toward it, and less even attempt it.

I think Andrew's complaints are valid, but I would like to know if Andrew sought out others who affirmed his desires (to minister to those in the gay lifestyle; to advance adoption within the community; etc), and then if in unity with those affirming others, if Andrew pursued the kind of service he desired to see the church do.

Passion and energy are powerful things, but the enemy would have us use them to create schism more so than the far more challenging work of unity in mission.

Brother Andrew, I'm sorry that those around you weren't more affirming and encouraging. I pray that God will soften your heart and help you find others who CAN affirm your desire to serve. You may have to look hard, but I assure you they are there. I then pray that you do - go and be the church.

DJ|AMDG

Andrew has the exact same cliche gripe that has been spouted on this site and others a thousand times. There is nothing new here. For a guy who claims to have grown up in the church and been so dedicated to it, even to the point of PAID ministry, to then suddenly become disillusioned over things he had to have known all along seems disingenuous at best. He has no business being in ministry with such an immature attitude.

I am sick and tired of the smear campaign aimed at pro-life Christians who are constantly accused of not helping mothers who choose to keep their babies and of not adopting children who the mother cannot keep. THIS IS A LIE! Not one of you ever cite a true example of this. I could give you example after example of just the opposite.

I am sorry to have been so blunt here, but this kind of diatribe is immature and disgusting. It offers nothing except petulance.

I am trying to figure out what Melody feels about this video. :-)

Melody:

You may attend a church that cares for unwed mothers and provides for couples to adopt children, and it's encouraging to know that. Encouraging because that is not the majority--people like Andrew and myself have been involved in the very churches he is criticizing. I still see it more often than not, so the points are valid. Many Christians are waking up and taking responsibility, and that's an awesome testimony to the Holy Spirit. But for every one who is getting out of their easy chair, many more still need to be jarred out of it. It's not a smear campaign so much as being honest, and I'm grateful to know I'm not the only one.

No offense but these answers seem a little "churched" to me...meaning, it's what people in the church say constantly when the authenticity of "the bride" gets called into question. I have personally seen and experienced genuine love, acceptance, and the pursuit of truth both in and out of the church but often find the church so boring, preaching the same sermons year after year and still sitting like lame ducks as the world is enveloped in evil and despair. I wish people would just talk less about justice and behave more on behalf of it...that is a congregation I am interested in.

Thanks everyone for your comments. There is obviously much more I wish I could have covered than the 3 minutes would allow but I just wrote a post over on my blog in response. Hope you enjoy and really hope my words help encourage.

http://andrewmeans.typepad.com/the_pipeline/2010/03/a-response-to-my-why-im-disillusioned-with-the-church-video.html

Thanks,

Andrew Means

I don't think it's entirely an age thing. I'm 47 and can identify with much of what Andrew is saying. The moralistic deism, the lack of depth in teaching and learning and doing, and the lack of a willingness to make a place for community to develop organically (and maybe even in ways the leadership can't control!) have contributed to our disillusionment with institutional evangelical churches. And when we've tried to change this within our admittedly small sphere of influence, there has always been pushback and/or shutdown from those in leadership.

And no, we're not heretics or weirdos or outsiders or troublemakers. I've been a believer since 5th grade, was raised by missionary parents, went to seminary. My wife has been a believer for 25 years. My concerns are not cliched gripes, they are real concerns and the reason thousands are leaving or staying away from evangelical churches. We are still searching. We've even talked lightly about starting our own group, but really don't want to have to do that; too many churches/groups already. We're hoping to find a place in the body of Christ that is authentic and challenging and helps us in our journey. We're still looking.

John, would you subscribe to this Wikipedia definition? - Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, sometimes abbreviated MTD,[1][2] is a term coined...to describe the common religious beliefs among American youth...The authors describe the system as being "about providing therapeutic benefits to its adherent" as opposed to being about things like "repentance from sin, of keeping the Sabbath, of living as a servant of a sovereign divine, of steadfastly saying one's prayers,..."

I would also like to know what you mean by "...the lack of a willingness to make a place for community to develop organically..." I hear the terms 'community' and 'organic' used continually in UR circles and have yet to ever hear them defined. Thus my statement that these gripes are cliche and rather empty. To my way of understanding, you have not given any specific reason for your disillusionment with your church. You speak of a "...lack of depth in teaching and learning and doing.." and I'm left to wonder, teaching what? Learning what? Doing what?

Please understand, I am not trying to be contentious here but I've seen these same statements made over and over again and they are so vague as to not really mean anything to me. Maybe they are a code for something that only club members can cipher. If that is the case then I can accept that but I would like to know.

Andrew's link addresses the "what does it mean questions." I quoted part of it that sums up inauthentic and lack of community well:

Too often I think the church is a hindrance to the mission of God here on earth. It builds walls that keep out people they are uncomfortable with and create cultures where it is hard to raise questions. Too often the church lives as an exclusive entity with a strong power structure that makes it difficult for people of different lifestyles, ideas, and theological beliefs to flourish. This is not necessarily true of every church community but I do believe it is true of many. Or at least, too many.

That's pretty specific, but I can think of more than a few examples if needed.

"The moralistic deism, the lack of depth in teaching and learning and doing, and the lack of a willingness to make a place for community to develop organically (and maybe even in ways the leadership can't control!) have contributed to our disillusionment with institutional evangelical churches."

Uh...hmm..."moralistic deism"?
Could you define that a bit more for me?

The act of going to Church has long been dependent on a passive laity who stares at the pulpit, passively absorbs whatever the preacher says, and then goes out of the service...hopefully, better connected to G-d.

yes, if what you describe is what you and your fellow attendee's are doing is accurate...it's a wonder you even believe G-d is real.

Christianity is dynamic, you, me, everyone involve makes it happen...if you don't...stagnation, boredom, spiritual ennui.

It's time to stop relying on your pastor, your eldership, your deacons, and your neighbor for your spirituality...as we say in Scouts when we're heading out..."Boots and Saddles." Every scout takes the iniative to make sure everything is a go.

Either you make it happen for yourself, or it will never happen for you.

I really do want you to define "moralistic deism" for me...I'm curious as to what that means to you.

I understand his disillusionment, too, though I am nearly 50. In what he offers as an alternative to the current state of what he has encountered in the churches he has been, it doesn't seem to me he has avoided the essential faulty presuppositions of what constitutes Church and the nature of salvation in Christ inherent in evangelicalism though. For me (as for many other former evangelicals), the answer came in a place I least expected to find it--in the faith and gospel tradition preserved in the Liturgy, spiritual understandings, and Saints of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It seems to many to be a "fossilized faith" and there are obvious sins in its midst (as in the midst of any other subgrouping of believers in Christ). Christ said that unless we abide in Him, we can do nothing (John 15). The secret to the Christian life is finding a real (not just theoretical) connection with Christ in His Church. What the Eastern Orthodox Church has going for it is its adherence to the fullness of the traditional understandings of the meaning of salvation in Christ and the expression of that in their Liturgical life through which that real connection can consistently be made. John, you might be interested in the post at this link:

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/5867/

I can understand the disillusionment. I feel it myself on occasion, as I'm beginning my second decade in full-time ministry. It isn't sudden, as one poster implied, at least not for me. But it does seem more acute at certain times. However, I do gain some comfort in the thought that this is not something new. As I read the Bible and study church history, I am reminded that the people of God have NEVER gotten it completely right. They've never been everything God wanted them to be, and often they've been really bad. Sure, there have been brief moments of revival and reformation throughout our history. But those are few and far between, and they rarely last longer than a generation or so.

And yet...and yet GOD DOESN'T GIVE UP ON HIS CHURCH!!!!! How could I? The book of Revelation gives us the final picture, and sometime between now and then, we finally become the people God created us to be. I have no control over what the church does. But I can CAN decide to serve Christ where I am, as best as I can, and know that even if there is only one other person by my side serving, "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in their midst."

'Church' is the people of God - not a religious delivery system of professional clergy, holy buildings, holy services and need based programs.

It's quite easy to become disillusioned when you lose sight of the one and get filled with the other.

I think of Matt Redmans song -

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about you, all about you
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I made it
When it's all about you, all about you - Jesus.

I think we could say the same thing about "church".

I'm sorry Lord for the thing we made it - when it's all about you, all about you - Jesus.

If the 'church' is the bride of Christ - then what is this delivery system anyway?

Reminds me of the song by Ray Boltz:

And he said, "Friend you may not know me now"
And then he said, "But wait"
You used to teach my Sunday School
When I was only eight.

And every week you would say a prayer
Before the class would start.
And one day when you said that prayer
I asked Jesus in my heart."

(Chorus)
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am a life that was changed.
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am so glad you gave.

How would that happen without a church or Sunday School? With all of its flaws, which all human groups have, Jesus never said to not meet together. Paul, of course, wrote his letters to churches.

Acts 2:42

42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

43Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.

44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common.

It's pretty impossible to find each other by wandering around city streets. Is there going to be a generation that has no Sunday school teacher to thank for bringing a child to the Lord?

Embers separated from the fire quickly burn out. Sometimes it can be hard to find a biblical church, but it's not impossible. Churches are for sinners, which we ALL are.

"Churches are for sinners, which we ALL are." - Barbara

Let's change the question.

If churches are for sinners, WHY DON'T SINNERS LIKE BEING AROUND HER TODAY?

Excerpts below from Philip Yancey's book "The Jesus I Never Knew" poses such a profound question that may lift the veil on why people, like Andrew, are disillusioned with his church.

"...we noticed a striking pattern: the more unsavory the characters, the more at ease they seemed to feel around Jesus. People like these found Jesus appealing: a Samaritan social outcast, a military officer of the tyrant Herod, a quisling tax collector, a recent hostess to seven demons.

"In contrast, Jesus got a chilly response from more respectable types. Pious Pharisees thought him uncouth and worldly, a rich young ruler walked away shaking his head, and even the open-minded Nicodemus sought a meeting under the cover of darkness.

"...how strange this pattern seemed, since the Christian church now attracts respectable types who closely resemble the people most suspicious of Jesus on earth."

Robert McAfee Brown in his book "Unexpected News" observes that it all seems askew that "while the [unsavory characters] do get a lot of attention in the Bible, the [respectable types] get a lot of attention in the church now and usually end up running things; and, in fact, become the official interpreters of the Scriptures."

Philip Yancey grapples with this ultimate question: "What has happened to reverse the pattern of Jesus' day?"

If you claim to be disillusioned by the Church and you haven't begun by looking in the mirror, and you can't cite specific instances, don't bother making a fuss.

"If you claim to be disillusioned by the Church and you haven't begun by looking in the mirror, and you can't cite specific instances, don't bother making a fuss."

Oh, you mean like Falwell's "Kill em all in the name of the Lord!" type specific, or Robertson's very public trainwreck called the 700 club type of specific?
Perhaps the "name it and claim it!" of Jim Bakker fame which was a truly epic spiritual breakthrough of hellish proportions, or maybe you mean the politization of the church and the polarization of political affiliation within the church where political liberals and political conservatives bark at each other like dogs type of specific?

Seriously RDM, if there is a reason for discontent with the church the list is easily assembled...and without much mental exertion.

So this is what I say...
yes, the church has provided many excuses for spiritually immature people to gripe about...and let's face it...we're a fallen people...selfishness and self-centeredness is still part of our reality. Let's practice forgiveness as well, and learn to love each other and work together in love.

Hey, I never stopped gathering with other believers. Not at all-in fact more than ever. I opt'd out of the professional clergy, holy building, holy meeting. It was the pro presentation that I can live without. I love the church (the people of God).

Melody,

Some of what I see is like the Wikipedia definition of moral therapeutic deism, but not all. A lot of it shows up as self-help and what Dallas Willard calls "sin management" programs. Most recently example being the promotion of such a program on a football-based theme at a men's breakfast. It was all about managing various sins and temptations. Not a thing about walking in the way of Jesus more deeply, or prayer, or meditation, or the spiritual disciplines. And of course you had to buy the program, including some kind of a clicker to count your blessings or graces or some such. To me, this is getting the cart before the horse in a really bad way.

As for the lack of what I termed organic community, take this example. A church has several healthy and functioning small groups that have arisen on their own through believers getting together, rotating leadership, sharing their lives, etc. In short, they're working and have become a key reason these people come to that church. And the teaching is solid. Nothing weird. Church leadership chooses first to ignore and marginalize them, then shut them down and replace them with a new "life group" program, all managed by the new gung-ho pastor. End of naturally arising fellowships of believers; beginning of top-down management of a manufactured "community."

As for the lack of depth someone else asked about, if you don't see it, I'm not sure I can describe it. But let me give you an example from today's service: Easter Sunday, Resurrection Sunday, service, but themed and played out as a funeral, complete with coffin, darkness, etc. (remember, this is Easter Sunday, not Good Friday) Very little about the resurrection itself, and then only at the very end of the sermon. Stacatto of verses from Paul's epistles. Nothing from the scriptures about the empty tomb or the women in the garden, etc. Not a single verse from that vital part of the story. No delving into the deeper meaning of the new life and hope the resurrection brings both to us personally and how it literally changes everything in the order of creation, looking forward to the new heaven and new earth, etc. No sense of mystery or awe. No balanced presentation of the grief and sorrow of this fallen world and how the resurrection is the promise that we have overcome sin and death through Jesus Christ, and so gives us hope and the ability to look forward confidently to the day when all will be made new in the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom.

I could give many more examples but the post would be too long. Hope you get the gist.

John, I basically agree with what you said, especially getting the cart before the horse. The only 'sin management' that works is repentance and obedience. A changed heart requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only happens when one is willing to give up all of self and all of sin and stop self-justifying. It also requires Biblical knowledge. Folks spend too much time reading 'Christian' books and not enough time reading the only book that counts.

If I had been at your church yesterday, it probably would have been the last time. Thankfully, at my church yesterday, it was an incredible balance of the two. I've never experienced 'Ressurection Day' without a sense of excitement from the moment I awake. "O what a foretaste of glory divine..."

John said:

"As for the lack of depth someone else asked about, if you don't see it, I'm not sure I can describe it. But let me give you an example from today's service: Easter Sunday, Resurrection Sunday, service, but themed and played out as a funeral, complete with coffin, darkness, etc. (remember, this is Easter Sunday, not Good Friday) Very little about the resurrection itself, and then only at the very end of the sermon. Stacatto of verses from Paul's epistles. Nothing from the scriptures about the empty tomb or the women in the garden, etc. Not a single verse from that vital part of the story. No delving into the deeper meaning of the new life and hope the resurrection brings both to us personally and how it literally changes everything in the order of creation, looking forward to the new heaven and new earth, etc. No sense of mystery or awe. No balanced presentation of the grief and sorrow of this fallen world and how the resurrection is the promise that we have overcome sin and death through Jesus Christ, and so gives us hope and the ability to look forward confidently to the day when all will be made new in the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom."

John, having just come from (another) Paschal LIturgy at my Orthodox Church in America parish this morning, your every wish above I believe is fulfilled in the Orthodox Liturgy! (We will also be celebrating the Resurrection for a full 40 days.) I pray you may find a welcoming Orthodox parish near you (not always easy to find, I'm sorry to say) and that perhaps next year you can experience for yourself the wonderful cycle of services for Lent and Holy Week. I don't believe you will be disappointed. May God grant all your desires that are unto salvation.

Sheerahkahn, very good examples of what happens publicly in the Name of Christ which turns people way from churches and and certain groups of people calling themselves Christians (and rightly so). From a theological and Orthodox perspective, however, these examples are more properly what happens when people (both within and outside of Her institutional bounds) fall AWAY from the Church by their disobedience to Christ. These are not, properly speaking, actions OF the Church (even if they may be actions that whole groups of Christians may agree with or try to excuse).

It would be a very Orthodox statement to say that one begins (to overcome obstacles to coming together in love with other believers who are sinners like ourselves) by "looking in the mirror," but the sign of an Orthodox who is spiritually mature is that this is also where it ends! St. Seraphim of Sarov said, "Acquire the peace (of the Holy Spirit) and everyone around you will be saved." One acquires the peace of the Holy Spirit only through continually in prayer and repentance seeking Christ Himself and continually bringing our own soul fully into the Light of His Presence. Only when we do this, do our actions begin to come into alignment with His will. Unless we abide in Him, we can do nothing. If we truly abide in Him, HE will manifest His Presence within us in ways which will draw others to His LIght without our having to manipulate ourselves, our circumstances, or others to make it so.

In my experience, the down side of evangelicalism is that what is intended as an emphasis on the gospel (quite appropriate) ends in becoming an emphasis on evangelism (i.e., "doing evangelism for God") as what defines us as Christians. Consequently, evangelical believers often end up convinced that the only reason they remain on earth is to influence others "for Christ." "Worshipping God and enjoying Him forever" is a luxury for the afterlife in this schema. Having forgotten really who they are in Christ, they turn Sunday AM--traditionally the Church's weekly celebration of the Resurrection culminating in feeding on Christ Himself, Who IS our very Life--into "seeker-friendly" outreaches and whip and carrot motivational meetings to get the "saved" out into the world to help reach the "unsaved." Sadly, though, by the end of this process, it's very hard to tell who is who, the attitudes and lifestyles differing not a whit in terms of essentials, though externals might differ a little!) Having "doing for God" as THE defining criterion of living a fully Christian life (for want of a better phrase) ends up with evangelicals oriented not so much to Christ Himself, but to always having an a priori "agenda" to influence others to change as a criteria for establishing their own spiritual identity and worth. This, I've discovered, is a deeply flawed and degraded understanding of what it means to be a Christian, and futile for truly bringing us and others to Christ in the deepest sense. Only Christ in us genuinely laying down His life for the love of another will have any effect at all. There is a world of difference, but it is hard to articulate.