I enjoyed reading what you said. You are right, I have been preaching and teaching His Word for years. One day it dawned on me too that no matter what I taught or said many times it fell on deaf ears. But The Lord remined me of Matthew 13, about the sower. And on one occassion years ago, I had been witnessing to a young women for 3 years. Nothing seemed to take, I was very despondant and wanted her salvation as much as He did. I came home upset thinking I had failed. When he quoted Hebrews 10:35-36.I know one day I will see her in Glory. It was His word to me of her salvation. I have never worried since He spoke those words.
I hope this will encourage you in times of discouragement. Just remember He knows your heart Francis and He sees your good preaching. So look to Him your Author and Finisher of your faith.

Linda Lanouette

We can't produce the harvest. Only God can do that. But we can scatter the seed. And that makes a difference. The Bible does say, "You reap what you sow."

We don't "win souls," but we are "witnesses" who testify. We can't generate love, but we can share the love God has given.

No, we can't make anyone fall in love with Jesus. But we can make sure they're introduced.

Sounds like Francis has gotten completely frustrated with the Western Church. And I completely understand and identify with him.

This has been the constant pastoral tension since the early church. He is correct, we need the Holy Spirit. Too much of our publications, conferences, and church culture center around who can build it bigger, higher, faster. Life change takes time.

It does seem that Francis has hit a wall in his pastoral life. I pray him through that wall and onto greater things. Without a doubt I too have hit that wall.

You are the Church!
Robert

Well, I'm sure some people would say:

Of course Chan has experienced this because he doesn't preach expositionally, verse by verse.

In my experience, if you ask people to state three words that describe "church" to them, the word 'sermon' will appear very few times.

It is all about the Spirit. I am afraid that many preachers have an inflated view of how many people are actually listening to a sermon, let alone 'getting' it. Then they feel let down when a great sermon doesn't produce any visible results or at least a sincere compliment.

Music, fellowship, prayer -- these words are much more used to describe church in the studies I've done.

Captcha: Study Push

John, do you find it interesting that the NT includes no music, some fellowship, more prayer and tons of sermons? Ex. The Sermon On The Mount, Paul's letters to the churches? Since when does this example, "...if you ask people to state three words that describe "church" to them, the word 'sermon' will appear very few times.", provide an accurate Biblical definition of church?

The example Francis gave about the unchanged man in his church who'd sat there for 15 years with a rebellious heart says nothing about Francis and a whole lot about that man. Francis is right about the Holy Spirit being the only one who can change hearts. And what a freeing knowledge that is. It removes the burden of changing people and the world from us and we can "rest in the Lord" because "His yoke is easy and His burden is light".

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand" Matt.7:26

Not everyone who sat under the teaching of Jesus had a changed heart either. 'Judas' is always with us.

It's never a bad thing to talk about God.

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Believe those words and head on over to www.hybridhondas.com. Click on a link or two to help a fellow brother out so he can continue helping others.

Spread the word to other brothers and sisters.

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Believe those words and head on over to www.hybridhondas.com. Click on a link or two to help a fellow brother out so he can continue helping others.

Spread the word to other brothers and sisters.

What is Francis "giving up on"? Is it his life service to the institutionalized form of church life dominated by one-way communication that is so weak in transformational value in contrast to the scriptures specific instructions on one another oriented communication? I hope so. He is focusing on the work of the Spirit in the household of faith. Great, the scriptures specifically state that being "filled with the Spirit" means "speaking to one another...", not the crowd oriented platform driven performances American leaders and pew sitters are so addicted to.

I know the old habit patterns appear to the human eye so Godly and feel so worshipful, but when compared to what the scriptures actually say, they are corrupt, holding the majority of the saints (not all) in spiritual "middle road faith". I was addicted to the system. Not any more. I hope Francis is in process of setting his soul free, and many others as he bears witness to the truth on the bride of Christ.

Tim, you said "...the scriptures specifically state that being "filled with the Spirit" means "speaking to one another...", not the crowd oriented platform driven performances American leaders and pew sitters are so addicted to." Could you give a precise scripture reference for this?

"He's sat under my teaching for 15 years and he still believes there isn't only a wide easy road and a narrow difficult road, but also a middle road?"

His eyes haven't been opened to the truth yet.

But like Peter, many other eyes have been.
Mat 16:15 He said to them, But who do you say I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Unfortunately we have come to equate preaching with lectures. Most educators have realized that lectures alone are a very inferior means of teaching. There are two reasons.

First, one size does not fit all. People are at different stages of their spiritual lives, they come from different backgrounds, have different learning styles, face different problems, etc.

Second, there is little feedback, so you don't really know what is getting through and what isn't. What questions do people have that you aren't answering? What hangups do they have that block understanding? Why did it take Chan 15 YEARS to find out what this guy's beliefs were?

Teaching and pastoring require back-and-forth engagement with people, not just broadcasting words into the air

Unfortunately we have come to equate preaching with lectures. Most educators have realized that lectures alone are a very inferior means of teaching. There are two reasons.

First, one size does not fit all. People are at different stages of their spiritual lives, they come from different backgrounds, have different learning styles, face different problems, etc.

Second, there is little feedback, so you don't really know what is getting through and what isn't. What questions do people have that you aren't answering? What hangups do they have that block understanding? Why did it take Chan 15 YEARS to find out what this guy's beliefs were?

Teaching and pastoring require back-and-forth engagement with people, not just broadcasting words into the air

So now it's not enough we have to accept Christ as our saviour..we have to "fall in love with him" and "become obsessed with him".

Seems to me the price of salvation keeps going up.

BTW, maybe by the "middle road" he meant "not your road".

Men are key here. And they will never find liberty or a sustainable sold out heart until they are free from the chokehold of Baal (worldliness/Success) and Asherah (sensuality) in their life (see Gideon's quest in Judges 6-7)....and connect authentically with a few other men they trust.
Best treatment I have ever seen on how to lead men into a lifestyle of taking new ground for their King and real community with men is in the new book "Called to War" by Art Hobba www.calledtowar.com.

Melody
Come on now! You know that verse. Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit... Look it up. I'll give a hint. It's in Eph. 5. The very next words are what I have said.

Is this shocking to you what the Word actuall says? When this scripture is read through the filters of institutionalized faith, the understanding is "yea, we do that as we sit in our pews for one-way communication and platform driven singing with no personal expression from any saint in the pew." God's commands are completely nullified. It's all considered normal.

This is not the only scripture on this very specific dynamic. There is so much more. I'm praying you grasp what God is asking for rather than continuing to guzzle down the traditions of men. Be a doer of the Word.

Wayne
Excellent point. Add the authority of God's word to what you are saying or it is heard as only your opinion. Col. 3:16; Heb. 10:24,25; and more.

Thanks Tim, I love that portion of Ephesians, especially the "...singing and making melody in your hearts..." part.

This one is for those who hate preaching: Php 1:15-18 "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice..."

Melody
Loving what the Bible says about something is the easy part. Doing it when most of the saints around you are programed to like the platform driven stuff and not like what the Bible asks of us is the hard part.

I don't believe I ever said I hate preaching. I love preaching the way the scriptures describe it, not the way tradition has defined it.
1. Preaching = lecturing. No questions, additions, objections or any kind of verbal participation from any other priest-believer.
2. Preacher is a hired expert - 99.9% of the time. Marketplace ministers are considered inept for preaching in the traditional mold so no one ever expects it of them when the saints gather.

There are no crowd oriented, platform driven gathering instructions in the N.T., only one another driven instructions. God's Word makes specific points against these two assumptions. The self-centered consumerism this brings to the household of faith is tragic.

Tim, I have no wish to argue with you, nor did I accuse you of hating preaching. You do however appear to linger on a one-note samba about how terrible modern day preaching is and I would be the first to agree that much of it is not scriptural. Yet the New Testament is filled with examples of preaching, both by Jesus and the apostles. I especially remember this account of the results of Paul's long-windedness:

Act 20:7-11 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples [obviously these are folks who are already believers]came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

What do you make of this?

Tim, In this case, Paul preached all night long, "...even till break of day...". "No questions, additions, objections or any kind of verbal participation from any other priest-believer."

I'm trying to think of any example of preaching in the NT where preaching involved verbal interaction with the crowd. There are some examples of 'teaching' however where conversation takes place. Can you think of any?

William Halverson -- ouch! Why be so judgmental? You don't know Francis, nor were you present for the entire interview. What was printed in the article isn't everything that was spoken or shared, only the highlights of what the writer wanted the reader to know about. Only God knows what's in a person's heart, and I'm fairly certain you're not God. ;)

Oops -- forgive me... I meant "sheerahkahn" and not "William Halverson." I read the name above and not below.

Melody
Acts 20:7-11 is actually an illustration of "dialogue" oriented preaching not lecture orientation. The greek word translated "preach" or "talking" in this text is the word "dialegomai" from which we get the very word dialogue or two-way communication. You can check me on this at blueletterbible.org where you can see it yourself.

I don't base my convictions on God's design for church life on examples of what may or may not have happened in Acts. I base it on very specific instructions repeated in many places. I am not trying to repeat the example of those in the book of Acts as much as I am seeking to obey the clear instructions given. Col. 3:16; Heb. 10:24,25; and more. Do you know of any instructions for lecture oriented expression of truth, not merely an example of something we have to assume actually was a lecture with no participation? I know of none.

When believers pour billions of $ across this country every week to buy a dynamic of expression of truth God never asked for, then the life of the church be highly restrained from doing what God did ask for. Francis may be discovering this sad reality.

Tim, the Acts example I provided seems extremely clear as to the structure of the event. The term 'preach' in this case is self-explained in the text. That you choose to ignore this example (which is quite clear) and then counter with two exhortations from Paul's letters, neither of which have anything to do with church structure or preaching, but rather with church member behavior while they are together, is puzzling to me.

What can I say when you disregard the obvious meaning of the original text and go with a translation that fits our slant.
It is clear you must read the word through the filters of traditions of men regarding Paul's instructions. There are many who will take your "giving" to provide you a weekly Bible lecture.

Tim, so this is Php. 1:15-18 with your redefinition of the word 'preach' to mean 'dialogue' "Some indeed 'dialogue' Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one 'dialogue' Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is 'dialogued'; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice..."

AND

Act 20:7-11 reads: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul 'two-way communicated' unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his 'two-way communication' until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long 'two-way communicating', he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and 'two-way communicated' a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

Good ole' Paul.

I have been standing and believing for my husband's salvation for 46 years. Early this year, I began a serious program of Bible study and prayer for household salvation. Believing that it should begin with my husband, I concentrated on his salvation. About six weeks ago, my husband confessed Jesus Christ as his Savior. He has since joined the church; and as I write this he attending a mens Bible study at our church. He continues to see periods of discouragement, but he has come through these stronger than before. Never, never, never give up--even after 46 years!

Forgive me, but I find the man more full of himself than full of the spirit. He should be planting his seeds, and letting others water it if that is the reality of the situation. His passion, to me, seems over his own ministry successes rather than for humbleness, brokenness, and serving. I'm sure he assumes that he is right where God wants him, and he doesn't need to change a thing, just acknowledge he can't make a difference without the spirit doing the work.

Classic misdirection in the headline. Whether it's for the first time (I doubt it) or not, Chan merely states his place, which is NOT the place of the Holy Spirit in bringing people to saving faith.

I'm thankful for Chan - his faithful and creative teaching, preaching, and writing plant Gospel seed in young soil that may not be reached otherwise.

I agree completely with Scott's analysis of this article. Additionally, we only get the tip of the iceberg with people's responses to writings & teachings. God knows the heart and the ripple effect of sermons and books. I've just discovered the work God is doing through Francis Chan (recommended to me by a seeker) and I've really appreciated what the Spirit is doing in my life as I pursue the concepts being taught.

Melody
Your Phil. 1 passage does not specify dialogue nor lecture. It's simply expression of truth. The Acts 20, Col. 3, and Heb. 10 are all specific two-way communication. It seems you have difficulty paying specific attention to what is in the Word and adding to what is not there because your mind is fixed on tradition. I used to do the same thing. God helped me to grow out of it 15 years ago. It was hard. My degree is in pulpit talking, but I saw it was not God's design. You can to with a humble heart and a Berean mind that will test what you are told with the Word to see if it's true. Acts 17:11. This is a more noble faith.

Tim/Melody, given the various Scriptures you have each quoted/transliterated and the variety of ways that the Faith has been lived, preached, and communicated (in formal Liturgy and in the highways and byways of life) throughout the centuries, I suspect this is a "both/and," proposition and that you are both (perhaps inadvertently) presenting a false dichotomy here. I do think certain traditions within Western Christianity put too much emphasis on rational disputation and discourse (in their understanding of the proclamation of the Scriptures), and I should point out that this can be one-way OR two-way (as in debate). According to the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 2, effective preaching of Christ depends upon the demonstration of the Holy Spirit's power and a genuinely spiritual life, not on human cleverness of logic and persuasive words of wisdom. In my own tradition (Eastern Orthodoxy), the Faith is very much a whole life thing whereby the whole of Creation proclaims God's glory (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear) and we "preach" Christ (or something else, "self" perhaps) with the whole of our lives. Preaching as explanation and proclamation of the meaning of Scripture (Scripture itself contains numerous examples of this kind of preaching, as has been pointed out) has its place, but it is a small part of a much greater whole.

When Jesus preached to large crowds, he was apparently preaching. There is no mention of give-and-take with his audiences. He also held small-group meetings with his disciples which did include discussions. So preaching is clearly a legitimate form of teaching. But the success or failure doesn't lie exclusively with the preacher. What about you, the listener? Are you listening to the message, looking for any bit of truth that will strengthen your life? Or are you sitting there, bored because he isn't talking about your main interest? Or are you mulling over the football game, or the dinner you're planning to serve?
Let the church have a well-rounded program of good preaching, good music, good bible studies, and other sctivities, and then make sure you participate in them.

You guy's are all way to analytical about this sound byte of Chans from an article. Seriously, calm down, enjoy God's goodness and quite expexcting humans to get it completely right. God's written word is souly sustainable for the human soul. everything else is commentary and questionable. Love the Bible and love Mankind, but always be weary of mankind teaching the Bible!

"But now we see but a poor reflection..."

Preaching as described in New Teastament scripture, was to spread the word that was yet to be written down. The people listened to Jesus and the apostles preaching and teaching because it was new and they did not have the written scripture to refer to. That would lead me to believe unless someone is reading from the scriptures today(the words preached in N.T.) the rest would be the other side of a two way conversation: God & Ours.

Francis, I recently read a wonderful book by J.I. Packer, Knowing God. It will give you the incouragement you need. It is one of the most inspiring books I have read.
I plan on reading more of this dear man's writings. Go and google his name.The youtube has several clips of his ideas. I cried as i listened to his dedication to The One we love. The sweetness of this mans character realy comes thru.

Linda

After discovering Francis Chan's ministry and reading his books I find at last a man who "gets" it and actually is and/or has been in the pastoral ministry. I am now in my seventies and have pastored churches, preached messages over my lifetime to congregations and had a weekly radio ministry. All of which were influenced by my mentor's of the past and current ministers and associations. Most of that produced nothing in my life which was lasting or biblical, I am sorry to say. The organized church did much to curtail my growth spiritually and it took God's sovereign grace to get me out of a lot of improper settings and approaches to the ministry. Expostional preaching turned things around for me greatly as God spoke to me in "context" of His word. Yet, I still found much "unbelief" existing in my fellow associations with local pastors, churches and organizations. Reformed we were and are but alas, not in terms of the supernatural live God who moves and directs and controls all things. Academically we believe that of course. But we still seek to "make it happen" in our own strength and power rather than depending 100% upon the Holy Spirit for power and direction. Forcing things to happen because we "WANT" it just won't produce spiritual results in God's kingdom. It may bring about "filled pews and seats" but people will walk out saying how great the music was or how great the sermon was but never HOW GREAT GOD and CHRIST are! That is tragic in America but it happens every Sunday. Until we come back to the word and believe it and submit to it and obey it and trust in the Holy Spirit daily in our lives and in our churches, we shall see shallow results from man's energy which will not last. May God help all of us to pursue the same approach Francis is taking. May God bless him.