I'm not a pastor, and I'm thinking I'd like a conference for guys like me too, an epic fail conference for non-pastors.

I epically fail at consistently maintaining a strong relationship with God. Help me!

Hi, I'm Jarrod and I'm a failed pastor.

(Everyone: "Hi, Jarrod.")

I'm a recovering megachurch staffer. But it's been 67 days since I attended my last "How you can do what I did" conference, and I've been reading Jean Vanier every day since.

(Applause.)

I can't wait to see what I will learn at the Epic Failure gathering. Maybe I'll find a sponsor.

@BrianYao sounds like you can be the keynote speaker for that epic fail conference for non-pastors. I'll take the morning session for you ;)

seriously, who are the speakers for this conference? it better be all these non-superstar/never published a book/ failed at least 3 church plants pastors...
If they get the usual guys up there (can't tell cuz the site is blocked at my work), it'll just be a catchy title for the same type of conference.

Fascinating!

If there were more safe venues for pastors to be genuine and authentic, to focus on what's REALLY happening in their hearts (pain? fear? hurt? frustration?), we'd have fewer dead bodies strewn along the wayside.

What's really needed are weekly opportunities to be a part of an unjudgemental, non-competitive, life-giving, soul-sustaining community with other pastors ...

Priceless.

Really a great idea...

"We grow most in our leadership and maturity not through our successes but through our failures."

Yes - Admitting we are failures - and turning to Jesus.
Apart from Jesus we can do nothing.

I think one of the major failures I had to admit was...

I really didn’t study the scrptures when I desired to be a "Pastor/Leader."
I just went along with the deceitful “Traditions of Men”
that said “Pastor” is a paid professional postion with power and prestige.

It wasn’t until I was ordained, and had my papers, did I discover

The “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader” is NOT in the Bible.

In the Bible...
I found NO one “called” - “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO one with the “Title”- “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO one “ordained” - “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”

It took four or five years but eventually had to rip up those papers.

My choice was - either I go along with the crowd and NOT make waves...

Or - become a “Disciple of Christ” learning from Jesus,
being a “Servant of Christ” and NOT a “Leader,” being “His sheep”
hearing “His Voice” and following Jesus.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.

{{{{{{ Jesus ))))))

Really a great idea...

"We grow most in our leadership and maturity not through our successes but through our failures."

Yes - Admitting we are failures - and turning to Jesus.
Apart from Jesus we can do nothing.

I think one of the major failures I had to admit was...

I really didn’t study the scrptures when I desired to be a "Pastor/Leader."
I just went along with the deceitful “Traditions of Men”
that said “Pastor” is a paid professional postion with power and prestige.

It wasn’t until I was ordained, and had my papers, did I discover

The “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader” is NOT in the Bible.

In the Bible...
I found NO one “called” - “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO one with the “Title”- “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO one “ordained” - “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”
I found NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.”

It took four or five years but eventually had to rip up those papers.

My choice was - either I go along with the crowd and NOT make waves...

Or - become a “Disciple of Christ” learning from Jesus,
being a “Servant of Christ” and NOT a “Leader,” being “His sheep”
hearing “His Voice” and following Jesus.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.

{{{{{{ Jesus ))))))

A. Amos,

Your comments seem to ignore the teaching in the following passages, as well as numerous references to the fact that the NT local churches had recognized leaders, the Apostles being the first, who then laid hands on and appointed others as the Church grew.

1 Peter 5:1-4 says there are undershepherds.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 says "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,' and 'The worker deserves his wages.'"

Ephesians 4:11-12 "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up."

I find no one here claiming that the pastor of a local congregation can or does take the place of Jesus. Rather, as the Scripture says, Christ Himself gives us . . . "pastors and teachers" who are to be faithful to disciple the flock entrusted to their stewardship. Christ Himself commissioned the Apostles commanding them to baptize and teach in order to make disciples of Christ.

It seems to me you have set up a false dichotomy in your comments.

It is possible for someone to exploit their position and demand honor in the way the Pharisees did. This is what the Scripture forbids. But for a congregation to recognize and honor those who serve the congregation as pastor is commanded by Scripture.

Wouldn't work for the pastor of the church I just left. He is perfect and has never failed.

Sounds like a great idea! I've actually considered writing a book about what it's like to be called to ministry, only to then enter into what seems like 24/7 trials-and how this is actually normal vs. the romanticized view that so many have when going into ministry.

Again, great idea. I'm all for it.

Karen

Appreciate the response. I’m familiar with the verses you mention.
I was taught to understand them as you do by my elders who were part of
“The Corrupt Religious System” that had me in bondage.

You say there are “undershepherds” in 1 Pet 5:1-4. Heard that, BUT...
I can’t seem to find “undershepherd” in those verses. Did someone add
that to the scriptures? Adding to the scriptures - do you recommend that?
Is that a “Tradition of men” that nullifies “The Word of God”
that Jesus warned us about in Mark 7:13?

“Undershepherd” sounds nice - but - It’s NOT in the Bible.

1 Pet 5:1-4 KJV
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2* Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3* Neither as being lords over God’s heritage,
but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear,
ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

And how come you stop at verse four and leave off verse five?
The “Spiritually Abusive” “Pastor/Reverends” do the same thing.
They don’t seem to like the part about “ALL being subject one to another.”

1 Pet 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.
Yea, **all of you be subject one to another,** (subject = submit)
and be clothed with humility:
for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Ever try telling a “Senior Pastor” they’re NOT to
“lord it over God’s heritage” and they are also required to be
subject one to another. Ouch!!! :-(

“Titles” become “Idols”
“Pastors become “Masters”

In my experience with “Pastor/Leaders” and being in leadership...

No matter how loving, eventually...
No matter how humble, eventually...
No matter how much of a servant, eventually...

Pastor/Leader = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always

Can you name one person in the Bible with the “Title” “Pastor/Leader?”
Can you name one person in the Bible with the “Title” “Reverend

A. Amos,

I'm sorry for your bad experience. Thankfully, it has not been mine (though I have witnessed it in other places). Of course, we are all subject to one another in the Body of Christ, and this is the context for a proper exercise of the pastoral role. Your exhortation against abuse of the pastoral role is appropriate. Your unScriptural categorical elimination of the completely Scriptural gifts to the body of pastors, teachers, elders, etc., in the interest of avoiding the abuse is not the answer.

Titles and wording, i.e., "undershepherd," "reverend," etc. are irrelevant. The implications in the Scripture of the appropriateness of men in the body "shepherding the flock" entrusted to them and the exhortation of the Scripture to members of the Church to willingly honor those who labor among them for the salvation of their souls certainly make these titles in line with Scripture's meaning, EXCEPT where they reflect an attititude on the part of the pastor/leader that is arrogating unto himself and demanding a kind of loyalty and obedience that doesn't belong to him, but only to Christ. That is, titles may not be demanded by the one in leadership, but they can be bestowed by the flock in recognition and honor of the service that is rendered.

Your concern is legitimate. Your answer is not.

I am looking forward to this conference & I am excited to sign up for a conference w/o knowing who the keynote speakers are because I'm signing up for something other than meeting a Christian Superstar.

This is one of the best ideas I've heard for a conference in a LONG time. I tire of conferences.

At some point we have to stop going to conferences and get to doing ministry. Perhaps I would attend but I've put a 5 year moratorium on conference going because it is all so silly. Big speakers, lots of books, lots models, very little authenticity.

This conference gives me hope for the future of conferences. :)

Sounds like a great idea. Can we have one for laypeople also?

On a related note, I remember hearing Dallas Willard speak a couple of years ago and lamenting that we had so many conferences about leadership but he had yet to hear of a conference on followership. Maybe we'll eventually get one of those, too. :)

I have to agree with John Ortberg. I learned tremendous lessons from deep difficulty. When I was "asked to resign" from my first position (meaning lie to the saints that you heard God calling you somewhere else) I lied as asked and realized the clergy system was severely broken and corrupt. God opened my eyes to actually see Paul's teaching on refusing the right to be paid and the freedom and reward that goes with that refusal. 1 Cor 9. At this point I don't need a conference to smooth over the systemic failure of pedestalized men leading in perpetual dependency. I have taken Paul's instructions to the Ephesian elders in Acts 10 to meet my own needs as I shepherd saints, knowing there is a greater blessing from giving than receiving and I can much better help the weak. God brought the failure conference to me. Thank you God!

Apparently you missed the word preacher which is used 11 times in the Bible, and the word ordain or ordained is used many more times than that. It sounds like you probably had a problem with an ordained minister, and I'm sorry about that. Now here is just one example of the word preacher, and there are 10 more verses. Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" 1 Timothy mentions ordained and preacher. 1Tim 2:7 "Whereunto I am ORDAINED a PREACHER, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." When we study the Bible, we don't go by whether a certain word is used or not, because other words can say the same thing using other words. For example, I believe in the Trinity, but the word is not used in the Bible. I can explain why I believe in the Trinity from many verses in the Bible, without the actual word being used. Also, I believe that Jesus is God incarnate, but the word incarnate is not in the Bible either. But we know that Jesus is God from many, many verses in the Bible, and don't need the actual word "incarnate" to be used to believe it and understand it. You can find a Bible online and use a concordance and find a lot of the words you mention as not being in the Bible.

Typo warning: Acts 20, not Acts 10

Paul did not want to be paid himself, but he made it very clear that others SHOULD be paid. He wrote to the Corinthian church with directions to pay their preachers. He was just making himself an exception to the general rule in the verse you cited. In 1Cor 9:14 he says:
"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

I'm not a pastor, but I think this is a good idea. I think you're casting too broad a net though. Many pastors 'fail' for many different reasons. I get the sense that you're interested in getting those together who 'fail' because God has sent them into the wilderness for purposes of sanctification. It is those pastors who have been called and who God is purifying in the wilderness for future blessing that need to be encouraged. If they can see their 'failure' as part of God's plan to prepare them for blessing and fruitfulness, then maybe they'll stay in the game through the 'failure' (the dark night) and ultimately walk into their destiny.

@ Tim - A big amen - Like your style

"I lied as asked and realized the clergy system was severely broken and corrupt."

Yes - the clergy system we see today is broken and corrupt.

I'm Blest - I've returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul... Jesus

@ Tim

Don’t know if you ever noticed this in 2 Chron 7:14. What do you think?

If my people, - which are called by my name, - shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isn’t God asking those - which are called by my name, - to humble themselves? Turn from their wicked ways? Who are those believers who are “called” by “God’s Name” today? What about the names - Shepherd - Teacher - Leader - Reverend - ? Aren’t these - names - that God is called?

1 - God/Jesus is called - Shepherd - Pastor
The Lord is my **shepherd.** Psalm 23:1.
...returned unto the **Shepherd** and Bishop of your souls. 1Pet 2:25.

2 - God/Jesus calls Himself - Teacher
... for “One” is your Teacher, the Christ...Mat 23:8 NKJV.
If I then, your Lord and Teacher... John 13:14 NKJV.

3 - God/Jesus is called - Leader
And do not be called leaders; for “One” is your **Leader,** that is, Christ.
Mat 23:10 NASB.
God exalted him at his right hand as **Leader** and Savior...
Acts 5:31 ESV

4 - God/Jesus is called - Reverend
...holy and **reverend** is his name. Psalm 111:9 KJV

So, What do you think about - Shepherds - Teachers - Leaders - Reverends - being those - which are called by my name - shall humble themselves? Aren’t these **names** that God is called? Are they taking “God’s Name” in vain?

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Ex 20:7

I’m Blest - I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul... Jesus...

Blest (aka A. Amos?),

Yes, there's no question here that Jesus is our Shepherd, Reverend, Bishop, etc. Yet, all believers are called to be holy as He is holy and to imitate Christ. So, by God's grace, believers are gifted with holiness and various gifts distributed as God wills, one of which is the ability to shepherd others, also under Christ's authority. It also says we will all reign with Him when He comes into His Kingdom.

I'm all for human beings not taking it upon themselves to usurp God's authority and honor, but there is also no question that He distributes His grace and shares His ministry with members of the Church as His co-laborers as He wills. I'm not advocating clericalism in the Church. But I am advocating for the authentic biblical ministry of God-ordained teachers and pastors and elders, deacons, etc. (even though human beings will inevitably exercise those gifts imperfectly at times).

Your idiosyncratic (unbalanced) interpretation and application of the Scripture is typical of those who start cults and sects. I find your claim to have returned to Christ as your Shepherd, etc., rather dubious given the fact that your comments disavow part of what His word clearly teaches. Those who take issue with any human authority in God's Church (not just the abuse of that authority) actually are bucking God's authority even if they won't admit it to themselves. You seem to be speaking more out of fear and insecurity than faith to me, friend!

@ Karen

You mention “human authority in God's Church.”
Not sure what you mean. Maybe you can explain what
“human authority in God's Church” looks like. From the Bible.

Seems Jesus taught ‘His Disciples’ NOT to ‘Exercise Authority.’
Mat 20:25, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25.

Didn’t Peter say NOT “to lord it over God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3.

What do you mean by “human authority in God's Church?”

What good is having "human authority in God's Church?” if you can't ‘Exercise Authority?’

And - Who has this authority?
How do we recognize who has this authority?

My sheep "hear my voice" and follow me.

I'm Blest - I've returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul... Jesus...

Url,
I'm not sure how old you are, but remember back in the 80's when it seemed like to be considered a "wonderfully, miraculously" changed follower of G-d was to be a former High Priest of Satan, or former High Priest of a Wiccan coven, or a former Gangster, or former...you get the point, yes?

yeah, I remember those days...thank G-d they passed.

My concern with the Epic Fail pastor is that it would turn into a competition, and to be perfectly honest...I just don't have it in me to field questions for non-christians explaining the nuttiness of what we're doing inside the church.
It just makes me /facepalm, and groan.

Can't we just be what G-d/Y'shua/Holy-spirit wants us to be...you know, humble servants doing our job the best we can?
Is it really that hard for us to be just average Christians, followers of a living and loving G-d without adding the fame or infamy of our actions.

Can't we just go one generation in the American Church without another stupid fad to rationalize/impress/convince others of our humanity?

We got the humanity thing down pat...we're not going to surprise anyone...it's okay to NOT make a big production out of our failures.
We, as human beings, have failures in spades, all of us do, so what if a Pastor fails?
If he confesses, repents, and changes their actions/behaviors like any other Christian would do, then done is done, forgiveness and reconciliation have been accomplished.
Moving on.

@ Blest,

In the context I am using it, human means a man, and "authority" means a specific position of responsibility. By authority or exercising authority, I mean someone given responsibility for representing the congregation as a whole in prayer before God, in teaching God's word, and in facilitating the ministry of fellow members in using their various gifts for the edification of the whole body. I do not mean dominating or lording over others, having the final say so, etc. By using this expression, I mean a man, representing and serving fellow members of Christ's Body under Christ's authority, by teaching and encouraging obedience to Christ's commands for the good of the whole Body. It is not absolute, and it never demands or dominates. It always respects the freedom of the other before God. In other words, it will have the character of Christ's own authority, which is not to "Lord it over" or dominate His children but to humble Himself, lead by example, preach and teach God's truth without compromise, and sacrificially give His life for the well-being of others.

However, we are off-topic according to the question raised in this post, so this will be my last post here.

@sheerahkahn: while i share your distaste for competitions about who is more human, i actually found the thinking behind the conference refreshing - no thrills/frills, an emphasis on faithfulness (vs. success), the de-emphasis on famous pastors with their books, DVDs, and other wares to sell in favor of celebrating our ordinariness and weakness, in which God demonstrates his extraordinary power. don't know if they'll be able to pull it off as advertised, but if they do, it sounds like it would be a breath of fresh air.

@blest: disagree that christians should never exercise authority in the church or that it always ends in abuse. quite simply, exercising authority is not synonymous with lording it over one another (cf. ephesians 5 - authority is to be used to serve those who are 'under' it). i thought your best post was the one where you demonstrate that the names we call pastors are attributed ultimately to God - which should serve as a sober reminder to us that all leadership must be exercised in a Jesus-like way - not so that the leader can be served, but so that s/he serves to the benefit of those they lead (cf. john 13).

"don't know if they'll be able to pull it off as advertised, but if they do, it sounds like it would be a breath of fresh air."

Our past history being any indicator of what we can expect with future results, I wouldn't hold your breath.

I am super skeptical of a conference like this.

Even if they do pull out some "nobodies" to speak, I pretty much guarantee they will still be dynamic speakers, who pastor multi-staff churches of at least 300 people, which only 10% of the pastors in this country have that privilege.

These Epic Fail speakers will probably have blogs with thousands of readers, and sometime within a year of speaking at this conference, will get book deals or invitations to speak at Exponential.

I like the idea; I'm just skeptical the creators of this conference know much about true "Epic Fail."

Excellent and thought provoking blog. After pastoring for 30 years I am in middle of writing a book on learning through failure. I have pastored mostly small and struggling churches ( which aren't? ) and going to most conferences is an invitation to depression. I thought of doing a conference on church growth. - how to make your church smaller. It might be another alternative to the endless success syndrome events.

Some great comments on here, eg. by Tim. I do understand where folks like A.Amos are coming from; the 'traditions of men' and matters of prestige are awful, and the Apostle Paul spent a lot of ink in his letter ripping into these things. 1 Cor. pops to mind in particular.
Actually it's in 1 Cor. that we have some of Paul's clearest articulation of how he sees himself as a leader: "under Christ, among you" probably sums it up best (see. ch3). That is, he is not 'over' the flock (lord model) or 'under' the flock (doormat model) -- but rather he is 'among' them as Jesus' servant. Serving the people, but only free to do so with reference to Jesus and his Gospel.
This way of thinking about leadership and its place in relationship to the congregation, frees us from the non-Biblical dichotomy of either 'lord' or 'doormat'.
Finally, I would like to say that a clergy-laity distinction is, in fact, a distinction that God makes: "those who teach will be judged more strictly". Whatever title you want to use for your Bible teachers in your denomination or church association is irrelevant. But those who are shepherding the flock under Christ with the Word of God, carry a responsibility that everyone should recognise and be clear on.

Some great comments on here, eg. by Tim. I do understand where folks like A.Amos are coming from; the 'traditions of men' and matters of prestige are awful, and the Apostle Paul spent a lot of ink in his letter ripping into these things. 1 Cor. pops to mind in particular.
Actually it's in 1 Cor. that we have some of Paul's clearest articulation of how he sees himself as a leader: "under Christ, among you" probably sums it up best (see. ch3). That is, he is not 'over' the flock (lord model) or 'under' the flock (doormat model) -- but rather he is 'among' them as Jesus' servant. Serving the people, but only free to do so with reference to Jesus and his Gospel.
This way of thinking about leadership and its place in relationship to the congregation, frees us from the non-Biblical dichotomy of either 'lord' or 'doormat'.
Finally, I would like to say that a clergy-laity distinction is, in fact, a distinction that God makes: "those who teach will be judged more strictly". Whatever title you want to use for your Bible teachers in your denomination or church association is irrelevant. But those who are shepherding the flock under Christ with the Word of God, carry a responsibility that everyone should recognise and be clear on.

My expectations can be summed up with these questions:

- Why do we have to come here (or places like here) to find a safe place?
- Is sharing failure ever a bad idea?
- Why do I feel that it’s only other pastors who get me?
- Is my attendance here a form of whining?
- Now that we’re out of the closet with the whole failure thing, will we ever be the same?
- What happens when I get back?

Can’t say how much I appreciate your listening to God to do this. Thanks.