Any leader thinking about transition should check out Bob Russell's book "Transition Plan."

Rick Warren has praised Southeast Christian's transition from Bob to current senior minister Dave Stone as the only perfect one he’s seen.

You might be interested in this interview with Bob about the transition: http://bit.ly/9qXopz

Well now, let's be honest...while this is surprising as to how quickly it happened it isn't surprising that it did happen.

The primary issue here (it seems) is debt and a the leadership desiring to let go.

Honestly, this looks like the future for a lot of mainline churches out there. They simply aren't growing. As nice as it would be to see them grow, for lots of reasons they aren't.

Have you watched a broadcast of the Hour of Power? It's just terrible. Music is stale, nothing fresh, and it has little attraction for younger generations.

The big question it should lead anyone in ministry to consider is how leveraged is your debt portfolio? I mean if your obligations far outweigh your income you've got a huge red flag.

Sorry. I don't think that's a "church" for sale.

First we have to see which church are we talking about?
1- The Church of God? or 2- the church of man?

Were there any "churches" bought and sold in the Bible?

What's for sale is - a Gov't approved, Gov't inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. ;-)

Jesus is the head of the body, the church. Seems the Church of God,
in the Bible, always refers to people, God's people.

Doesn't anyone know what the word "church" refers to?

Jeremiah 50:6
My people hath been *lost sheep:*
*their shepherds* have caused them to go astray...

It isn't just the debt--it is the entire approach. We're following a business model rather than a biblical family model. I call in question the idea of bigger is better and professional is where the power is.

Nor is it the staleness and non-contemporary approach--it is the whole concept of attraction versus mission. I dare say the attractional models (while they will still exist) are going the way of the dinosaur and eventually will shrink until there are only a few left with more and more small group fellowships and house churches forming the normative Christian experience.

Do you suppose it's too late for me to get a rebate on the money my mom and dad gave years ago to purchase a window?

Yeah, I suppose so...

Well, all I have to say is that I came through the youth ministry of the church in the 70's and it was powerful, and there are many men and women in ministry today because of the youth ministry of GGCC. So, let's not throw too many stones! Heck, you might break my folk's window and I bet you they'd send me the bill!

Randal,
You're right (and the metaphor is truly punny, too!--can it be both? a metaphor and a pun?)

I agree, there were probably many people touched through the ministries at CC--as there were in churches throughout the US. However, something went wrong and I think we confused a positive mental attitude, self esteem, and the American dream with the Kingdom.

But I would be horribly wrong to deny that much good came through the ministry you and so many more experienced.

Maybe even one day I can point back to people who were touched by my ministry and say "a difference was made in that life!" That is what it is all about.

God bless you.

M'yeh...a building is a building.
It's the context of purpose to which the building served that defines whether it was worth the material that put it together, or not.
For me, the way I see it is that the resources that went into that building...just makes me wonder how many third world schools that could have built...how many medical clinics...how many people the money that that building represents could have touched so many people with Christ's world.
Perhaps, a bank will buy the building...and finally the building will be true to it's initial purpose for which it was built...to serve the depositors, and only them.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked..."

its a beautiful church.I have been there.

I think it's funny how quickly we all (yeah, I did too at first) jump on the "failure" bandwagon. I appreciated Randal's comment above. There is much to think about here (indebtedness, generational ministry, succession, etc.) but one thing that may also be worth thinking about is this: what is ministry?

How many buildings that stand today will be standing in 30 years? What will be their purpose? And if they were built for churches, and then serve a different purpose, is that failure?

It seems that the Church is continually being built up through the making of disciples...the rest is just metal and glass, brick and mortar, drywall and studs. So who cares? The world looks and says, "Ah ha! Failure! Decline!" and so they should. But the Church? Why should we be so easily fooled? Praise God, His Church survives!

"...just makes me wonder how many third world schools that could have built...how many medical clinics."
I'm always having this discussion w/ my son. I used to feel exactly the same way.
But now I begin to cut the Church-building concept some slack.
Why not a building dedicated to God's uses that takes your breath away with the beauty of it when you walk in? That helps you focus on the spiritual? We people are not all what some call saints you know. Some of us need to be awed, to be shaken from our usual perspective.
(I am thinking of traditional cathedrals here, not necessarily the Crystal Cathedral, but I suppose it might qualify.)
In general I agree that great cathedrals are unnecessary and the money spent building them could be better spent in other ways.
But there must always be some tolerance and appreciation for art, music, incense and the sound of great bells ringing.

Very interesting. I believe I still have an e-mail I sent many years ago, suggesting that the Crystal Cathedral, as a building, was inappropriate and counter to Jesus' call to serve. The person who e-mailed back, not surprisingly, disagreed and suggested they could not sell it because who would buy it? Now, we'll find out!

"Because so many of these large churches were predicated on the personality and leadership skills of a single dynamic pastor, there is enormous risk to the entire ministry when he departs."

This is true of small churches as well, even with much less "dynamic" in the pastor that are set up for the same pulpit and pew orientation - clergy / laity split. Not only is the addiction to the personality of the dynamic paster a key factor but also the addiction to passivity in the pew. God designed His people to gather to both take in and give out personal expression of truth and the mighty works of God in their week. He gave us clear instructions to do this. Heb. 10:24,25, Col. 3:16, etc. These are clearly rebelled against by both pedestalized shepherd and dumbed down sheep. Rebellion against God's instructions has fall out. Both of these two rebellions go together to create a shallow, fragile, self-centered church at it's core gathering no matter what size - crystal or stucco. Probably thousands of small churches across this country every year experience divisions and fights at pastoral change time, which in itself creates big debt.

Even though this is all true and before our very eyes, almost no one questions the systemic assumptions and proof texts used to justify this system. God is rich in grace and mercy and is able to accomplish some of His purposes in this warped dynamic, but He may at some time say enough is enough as is clear in the OT regarding Israel.

God's people are far better off building the kingdom of God without special crystal or stucco. Either one leads God's people to minimize and /or reject what God said brings holiness and substitute in bogus alternatives that merely feel good or feel "touched".

This may be a commentary for all the saints to consider, "Do we follow a man, a man's teachings, or the Person of Christ and the God-ordained way?"

"God's people are far better off building the kingdom of God without special crystal or stucco. Either one leads God's people to minimize and /or reject what God said brings holiness and substitute in bogus alternatives that merely feel good or feel "touched"."

This smacks of Puritan iconoclasm. Tolerance of different traditions would seem more compassionate.
All of us know our that our earthly architecture and art, our music and liturgy cannot possibly compare to God's.
A fine and beautiful cathedral does not lead to a diminution or rejection of God any more than a simple and plain Quaker church leads to His glorification.
Quite simply, what is in the heart is important. Whether that heart beats in a revival tent or cathedral makes little difference. God works in both venues.

It seems like there was a lot more happening with Crystal Cathedral in terms of not just the congregation but the global ministry, television etc. and they never shifted cultural styles either even with leadership transition. I saw that, as I am not sure they represent the typical megachurch. There is a church Twin Lakes Church in Aptos, CA who is a megachurch and then successfully transitioned a long time senior pastor to another and the church has grown since then. You have Joshua Harris who took leadership from the former senior pastor at Covenant Life Church successfully. There seems to be megachurches who can transition if they are strategic and wise about how the whole church functions and be thinking of the future.

Steven
"Puritan iconoclasm" - Seems good to me to smack of that. The household of faith is in desperate need of purifying, and of freeing itself from it's flesh driven need for icons, monuments. or visuals that suggests the visual things God has given us to point to Himself are not sufficient or adequate. "The heavens declare the glory of God" frees us from the need to invest millions in erecting our own crystal, granite or stucco visuals.

What God asks His people to do when they meet does not require a special building devoted to meeting. When men insist on saying they need one, they steal resources to buy what they want that should go to what God wants - serving the poor and building a people among all nations that worship Him. This misdirection of resources reveals what is in the heart. (Where your treasure is there will your heart be also..." Claiming sincerity for ourselves (as the Pharisees did) does not fly with God. He will burn the wood, hay and stubble.

Tim, I am with you generally. I am a Methodist, and know the word of God can (and should) be preached in the open fields and anywhere.
But I see the dangers in a narrow view that would deny the visually exquisite and beautiful works that men and women can contribute in order to express their love of God.
No one would suggest our art can equal the beauty of God's creation. Yet as men and women created by God and given the ability to craft beautiful things we can join in creation's praise of God.
Ritual is no less a 'visual' than a painting or sculpture. Words themselves are a visual way of forming images.
Flesh, art and earth are not evils. There is a frightening dichotomy I sense in those who deny them.

Please forgive me if I go on, as I realized I didn't address Tim's main point and he deserves that.
Is it really a 'misdirection of resources" to build a cathedral? I'd be lying if I said I could wholeheartedly disagree. But is it really a zero sum game? Does a cathedral diminish our ability to serve the poor, really? Does a monastery where monks 'merely' pray steal resources from the poor? Or does the monastery and the cathedral by their very existence promote God's work of repentence and conversion?
Why not an awesome cathedral? If that helps people come to God, and moves them to change, to oppose violence and oppression, to begin to love their neighbor - is that 'stealing' from the poor?
Some folks need stained glass, and some prefer the clear light. One way is not necessarily superior to the other.

I was sickened years ago when I went to the Cathedral. This was a monument to Bob and not to Christ. What will happen to all those people who gave enough money to be laid to rest next to the Schullers some day? Yes, if have never been there, you can buy space on the property to be buried next to Bob. It turned my stomach then and only adds to the laughingstock that certain 'christians' read "Camping's end of the world prediction" have laid at our feet.

Steven
"Why not an awesome cathedral?"

Man is capable of using his God given creative abilities to build God's kingdom. We also know mankind is capable, with the warping of our flesh and the Deceivers' willing assistance, to imagine all sorts of ideas to "help God out" but at the same time nullify what He is asking for.

God has not told us "thou shalt not make buildings to glorify me or use to accomplish my purposes". There are some things where buildings for God's work is required. Most things do not because they are all highly relational and along the normal path of life. Building special buildings so a crowd of people can gather to hear one man dominate the expression of truth in strict one-way communication is a a creative idea from man that he thinks might work well yet it directly contradicts what God has asked for - which is "one another" in it's orientation and not expert driven. (Heb. 10:24, 25 and others) So we see special buildings across this country going up to lead God's people to ignore or at best highly minimize what He specifically asked for.

How strategic, how obedient is it to gather huge amounts of money to do what God has not asked for and actually minimizes what He has asked for and then allocate much smaller amounts to do what He asked for? His way will work better. In our flesh warped sinfulness, we indulge ourselves and rationalize that our way is better, so we'll reserve God's way for a 3rd or 4th fiddle program. Cathedrals are like Abraham jumping into bed with Hagar to help God get him his promised son. Abraham probably enjoyed every moment of that but the killing and strife flowing from that are with us today. God is building His kingdom in spite of our preoccupation with cathedrals and their various sizes, just like He did with Abraham. We will be better off if we fix it. We cannot "run the race marked out for us" until we "throw off the the things that hinder and the sin that so easily entangles.."

The original METHOD of Methodism was on target. It has gone far astray since then.

This is a truly sad day. When a church is forced to close its doors. And yet.. it could be the start of something even more glorious. Maybe it is the excuse they have always needed to get out from the mindset of church as the only ministry and place where we can be ministered to.

How much good can not come out of that congregation going out into that city, and reaching those people, drawing them to churches that would suit their needs?

I have no problem to building a Cathedral for the glory of God, after all what is money to God? The issue is rather is that going to become our attention and main focus? We can build a glorious cathedral for millions and still preach the good news, still feed the poor and reach out to others. And we can save our money, build a small church, and still be so inward focussed that we forget that there is a world out there headed for hell.

Balance is good.
We are in error when we exclusively focus on the physical needs of the poor and ignore their spiritual needs.
We do wrong when we lay out all our money and efforts on great buildings and neglect to feed the hungry.
I feel art and architecture can help some focus on the Kingdom of Heaven, and help lead them to salvation.
But for some art may be just a distraction.
By having different expression available to His people maybe God is allowing for our individuality, and grants us a little space for disagreement. As always among Christians.

It's good we discuss the best way to serve God and neighbor.
May God guide us, and help us to understand and love others.

I like to say that Mega churches are out for money and not out for the person every month they are ask public to send your seed faith to them so they can buy new house or new car or a 100,000 millon jet to fly around in on your money.So be careful get in to a megachurch and do all your home work.Don,t need all there books they sale to you just read the bible.

The towers at the megachurches should be the eye of a needle. How many Christians can learn Jesus's true ways where He, his mother and Joseph would not be allowed in on the evening of His birth? We read the bible, then learn nothing sometimes.

I agree, there were probably many people touched through the ministries at CC--as there were in churches throughout the US. However, something went wrong and I think we confused a positive mental attitude, self esteem, and the American dream with the Kingdom.

Disneyland could do good things with it.