I find it interesting that every year I go to Church on the Fourth of July weekend I end up regretting setting foot in the door.

Pledge of Allegiance, check.
Star Spangled Banner, check.
Revisionist history commercial, check.
Proud of our Armed forces fight for our freedom, check.
Sermon expounding the glories of a made-up history that only exists in Texas School books, che...huh, wait...not this time?

Yes, this time the sermon in my church was completely different.

Other than the standard fare of garbage, this time our pastor actually delivered a sermon that had nothing to do with revisionist history, or how lucky we are...nope, this time, he spoke about David and Goliath.

It was a very nice change. Perhaps next year we'll skip the pap of allegiances in a congregation whose allegiance should be to G-d.

Though not a Mennonite myself, I've been deeply grateful for the public witness of this branch of the church. I've benefited from the Mennonite tradition in my own wrestling with how to pledge allegiance to Christ alone in a country that demands my allegiance in so many ways, some of them quite subtle.

Thanks for this Mark.

It is a blessing for our Mennonite friends to have the freedom to worship and express their perspective. However, I'm puzzled at how singing the national anthem, or paying respect to the men and women who defend our freedom at a non-church athletic event would in some way violate a Mennonite's convictions.

In a worship context, I agree wholeheartedly with Mark, but we're talking about ballgames and track events... Quite a stretch to me.

While I believe strongly in the separation of Church and State, I also understand that the freedom we enjoy in this nation didn't come cheap.

I think that paying respect to those who defended our freedom to enjoy a good ballgame on Saturday, and worship freely on Sunday the One who set us free from sin can be done without violating convictions or offending our countrymen.

Then again, I'm free to be wrong, right?

Just curious as to why Goshen is not offended by FAFSA or any other Federal funds they receive? Come on take a real stand then I'll be impressed. Federal lyrics bother you but not our filthy lucre?

Ouch - that last comment had some bite to it. But it's true, we pick and choose what parts of the culture we live in that we embrace. I live and pastor in what usually reveals itself as the most conservative county in the US each presidential election. Literally close enough to hear the star spangled banner played over Eglin AFB's loudspeakers every day, and serving alongside men and women who are serving or have served, we don't do patriotism in worship, and the flags are in the lobby. No revisionist history either, but when I do see a chance to use the real history of this nation to remind people that others came, served, fought, built, and lived their lives as Christian Americans - I do it.

I appreciate our Mennonite brethren. But in the culture, at a ballgame? Sing!

Applying this logic to other relationships, like marriage would mean never praising your wife nor telling her you love her. Love of God and church is not exclusive it is actually inclusive. The more I truly love God the more I can love my nation even when it sins, perhaps most of all then.

I find it interesting that the Mennonites were more than happy to come to the United States in the 1890's and the 1920's in order to escape persecution at the hands of the Russian government. They were more than happy to accept the offer of non-participation in the military (in perpituity) - a privilege not accorded to them in Holland, Germany or Russia. This country that has extended its welcome mat to these people is mostly loved and seen as a blessing from God; except by those Mennonites who revel in their own self-righteousness and sense of superiority over others.

My father-in-law was born to a Mennonite family in Hillsboro, Kansas (jokingly known as 'Mecca' to Mennonites) soon after the family arrived from Russia. He was of draftable age when WWII broke out. He and his two brothers enlisted in the Army and then had to tell their Mother why. Their belief was that it would be morally wrong for them to sit back and enjoy the benefits won by the sacrifice of others while holding themselves as more righteous. Yesterday we celebrated our freedom and Dad's 91st birthday with joy and appreciation. God bless the U.S.A.!

Oh, Elegance, I know another person with a familiar story. Also from Kansas, when he decided to enlist in WWII, his Mennonite family disowned him. Not only did he accept the decision of his family, he served his country well, and had the distinct honor of being present to liberate those being held in death camps in Europe at the end of the War. What an amazing legacy he left and how proud I am to have known him. And what a wonderful legacy your father-in-law has left to you.

Kevin you said, “However, I'm puzzled at how singing the national anthem, or paying respect to the men and women who defend our freedom at a non-church athletic event would in some way violate a Mennonite's convictions.”
The problem is with that word “our.” Who is “our?” “Our” is the nation and we have a real problem in our church we understand the primary group we belong to as the nation we live in and not the kingdom of God.
The person who gave us freedom is Christ. Freedom in America is about the freedom to do what you want, don’t get me wrong that’s great and all and I enjoy that but that is very different from the freedom that Christ gave us which was the freedom to serve others. Like I said I enjoy the freedoms that I have in America, but I also have to ask myself at what cost? The freedom I have to do as I please, is built on blood, and sorrow, the blood of soldiers on each side. I’ve seen what war does to soldiers, I’ve seen the family that dead soldiers leave behind. So at what cost? I think we have to start asking if the cost is too high, and not just for our soldiers and families, but for the soldiers and family on every side.
I don’t sing the national anthem and I don’t say the pledge of allegiance, because what my nation is asking of me and trying to teach me from its songs and pledges is to put my nation above every other nation, and have an allegiance to its citizen above citizens from other countries, and pray for its victory, and morn when its soldier died but not the one’s from the countries who are our enemies even though they too our children of God, and I can’t do that because my citizenship is in the kingdom of God where there are not national boundaries, where there is no longer Jew nor Gentile.

Why not play the National Anthem (of whatever country) for the other team just out of respect?

Are you sure athletic competitions do not violate 16 century Mennonite strictures?

"...one nation; UNDER GOD; with liberty and justice for all." Why are so many of you determined to create a conflict where none exists except in your own minds? This is the only nation that has sought to build an understanding of justice and liberty based on Biblical principles. (And please don't start on the "they weren't Christians, they were deists" bandwagon - it's old) I haven't yet met the truly born-again Christian who is a patriotic American who puts the state before the church. This is a straw man.

Each of you who seriously, for religious reasons, choose not to defend your fellow Americans, are allowed to sit at home and reap the benefits - but condemning those Christians who serve is unbecoming and smacks of elitism to me.

@elegance:

That's fine. Just so long as you don't trot out the equally revisionist and outright lying of the "wall builder" dreck that poses as real historical research about this country's founding and founders.

it's not elitist to come to a reasoned theological perspective about non-violence and the role of the Church in contra-distinction from the civil society the Church finds itself in. And that position is not dependent on the "real Americans" and bravery of people who serve in the military. That position is ordained by God for God's people regardless of any civil society they find themselves in. THAT's the beauty of the Anabaptist witness. the anabaptists took in on the chin and sustained more violence for their beliefs than most of us have or ever will. They are inheritors of a critical corrective POV that rightly asks us to question the outright lies and horrific theology that would say that Christian faith necessarily begets patriotism.

The fact that such inflammatory high-minded rhetoric gets thrown out whenever an anabaptist offers their point of view proves, in my mind, that the sin of nationalism is a dark reality for many evangelicals. otherwise ya'll wouldn't get all banged out of shape about it.

trust me, I'm thankful God put me here. But if God, in his wisdom, had me in the Chinese house church OR the chinese state churches, or any other situation, I would still be called by God to understand my distinctive supra-national membership in the Church.

From one who is not an Anabaptist, to all the others who are not Anabaptists, here's the distinctive in Anabaptist "kingdom theology" (as I understand it). Anabaptists do not see themselves as citizens of two kingdoms, as Reformation Protestants do. Anabaptists see themselves as citizens of one kingdom only, owing allegiance to one kingdom only. When you keep this distinctive in mind, Anabaptist non-participation in civil government makes sense. Not saying you have to agree with it; just explaining (and open to correction from those who know better).

I think you are exactly right, Rob.

The 'two kingdoms' doctrine grasps both realities.

The 'one kingdom' doctrine ignores many of the ugly realities that the rest of us face. Like loving our neighbor and protecting them from evil, and contributing towards the very freedoms that one enjoys.

It seems to me that there are strong patriotic and political (i.e. conservative, Republican) undertones to some of the negative, critical comments directed against some of our brothers and sisters in the faith. I wonder what Jesus' "take" would be on this issue.

Personally, I am uncomfortable with a US (or any nation's)flag in a Christian church. Nowhere in scripture do I see support for Christians to be nationalistic. Yes, we are to be good citizens; yes, we are to pay taxes and should take advantage of rights as a citizen (I vote in every election). BTW, I did serve in the US Army for four years, in case anyone questions my morality :) .

But, what happens when as a patriotic American "Christian" my nation is at odds with another country? What about our brothers and sisters in Christ who are citizens in that nation? Should our allegiance to our country outweigh our allegiance to those who are of the household of faith in other parts of the world?

It is dangerous, in my opinion, for the church to align itself with any worldly political or national "power" - because any earthly power often finds itself at odds with God's priorities and His ways. One only has to look at the example of the German church in Nazi Germany to see where that can lead. I'm certain that Dietrich Bonheoffer probably would feel more comfortable with the Mennonite position.

"Two kingdoms" sounds a lot to Anabaptists & other peace churches like "serving two masters," and you know what Jesus thought about that.

I just believe every person should not only pledge allegance but actually subject themselves to the gov't that protects and provides for them. God's the one that gave them the power. If you defy their rules, in a sence, you're defying God, and i believe they'll be judged for it. It takes governments to keep order, it seems a bit of a slap in the face to take full advantage of freedoms without supporting the leaders. God uses them to carry-out judgment, and when you are not willing to follow their authority, you short-circuit God's judgments. It's along the same lines of ministers not paying taxes, I believe it's shameful. That's like buying a home, then once you live there sueing the owner because interest is "against you're religion." just because a court might rule in your favor (and they wouldn't), that wouldn't make it just. It all strikes me as disrespectful to leaders & past leaders in the US. At least, that's how I see it.

Bonhoeffer did write about "church & state" in America in 1939. He criticized us because he believed both church and state are institutions that are ordained by God and will thus last until the Lord returns. Why do we all take beloved historical figures and remake them into our own theological ideals?

I can relate to Mark's dilemma. I chose not to go the Church last Sunday as I knew we would have to salute the flag and pledge 'allegiance' to the United states, sing the 'Battle Hymn of the Republic, etc.
Just too, too much idolatry and militarism for me.
You cannot serve two masters. Abide by the law of course. But do not blindly serve a government of men, which is conducting murderous, illegal wars, which stockpiles thousands of nuclear weapons, justifies torture, etc.
I cannot support and serve tyrants or criminals, or a cruel and anti-life state.
Nationalism has no place in a Church.

Let's see...I think Goshen gets Federal dollars but you don't complain or kvetch about that nor do you thank the taxpayer. You reap the benefits of living in the US because (1) God put you here and (2) you have others who selflessly lay their lives down for you so you can live securely and enjoy many blessings and the right not to sing some song.

You don't have to sing a song in my opinion. But I see very little thankfulness from you for your freedoms. I am trying to shake the idea that you and many others hide behind a facade of religious conviction only to mask a strong sense of self-preservation. You want others to protect you and keep you safe but you won't give them the time of day and you rest on your sanctimony. It's easy to do what you do; let others die so you can enjoy the freedom their lives and deaths provide.

Don't waste our time and your breath. It appears all you want is to be left alone to reap the benefits others shed their blood for. That's fine. You don't have to sing the National Anthem. You don't even need to recite The Pledge. But please be more thankful and appreciative for those who God has ordained to stand watch on the wall for you, your family and your church.

God bless you and these United States.

I have to agree...on one hand it's admirable that Goshen wants to remain "non-partisan/apolitical" and yet on the other hand...taking federal dollars.

Ooooo...doesn't speak well of consistency of belief.

I'm curious...is it okay for one Christian, say an American, to kill another Christian, say an Iraqi over oil? Over Politics? Being in the right spot at the wrong time?

Is it okay for American's who are Christians, who serve in the United States Military to kill with prejudice Iraqi Christian non-combatants?

@Steven W.

'I cannot support and serve tyrants or ...'

Do you pay taxes? If so, you do in fact support those you are condemning. Your song or pledge mean little. If you have real conviction, put your money where your mouth is.

Personally, I think the pledge is dumb. A pledge is a promise, 'to the flag..', an inanimate object (why not a book or tree or graven image?) that represents something else. In this case a country that claims to be under God. Well it may have been at one time but considerably less today.

I believe nations are raised up by God, but I also know they are not God. I pay my taxes, and have served in the military, but fear to encourage my children to serve in the military today with the direction things are going.

I believe WWII was a just war and any one who calls them self christian should have been willing to take part in to stop the atrocities of Nazism. But, there are other 'wars' that are less clearly defined. Yet, if you are a christian in the military, you are still God's and must serve Him above all. This does not mean you can't be a good soldier.

WWII Germany clearly held their leader and nation above God. Dietrich Bonheoffer came to Christ through a French pacifist. Yet, Bonheoffer took active action against the German government and was executed for it.

Those who live by the sword may die by the sword, but neither side is expressly condemned. God simply says you won't be invincible if you take up the sword. Now, if you value life in this world more than the next, dying by the sword may sound unacceptable to you. Are you willing to lay down your life for someone in need? Jesus did it for you! It is the greatest act of love.

Nationalism may have no place in church, but it does have a place for citizens of the country...even if they belong to a church.

We have to be good citizens, too.

Will any of the anabaptists or Goshen College alumni/advocates please comment on the receiving of federal aid aspect of this conversation?

"I love my country, but I sing my loyalty and pledge my allegiance to Jesus alone."

By your logic, a person cannot pledge allegiance/loyalty to his wife and family either. To do so might result in confusion for those looking on and wondering what matters to the person. Do you, as a pastor, not perform wedding ceremonies? Do you let people in a wedding ceremony make vows? If a married person is struggling, what standard do you hold them to? It must not be a promise that they made on their wedding day.

I know good anabaptists don't believe in oaths, so maybe this isn't a problem for you. Either way, the logic is twisted to an extreme that isn't necessary. Being loyal to something or someone need not be unconditional. However, your arguments assume the opposite, and are therefore based on a faulty and unnecessary premise.

I think our imagination is way to limited. We have bought in to the nation's claims that freedom and peace come from violence, and that it is the military's job to give us freedom and to protect it. I can't help but wonder what if instead of an army we funded peace makers, real peace makers, those without guns, who were willing to go into these same areas, go and live with people who were being oppressed and be willing to love them and their enemies and if need be die with them, non violently. I think as the church we should be asking those questions and we should be challenging our national story that tells us that military violence is the only way.

And no as Christians we are not always called to be good citizen. If you recall Jesus was crucified by Rome for calling himself king and stirring people up, he was hardly a good Roman citizen. Likewise many of the apostle we executed by the government.

@Jane

Jesus was not a Roman citizen...

Very Informative - Thank You.

If you really want to know about true Mennonites you can read the actual writings of Menno Simmons at this website:

http://www.mennosimons.net/index.html

You will be surprised to see very little about pacifism there. If modern day Mennonites were to actually live and teach what Menno taught so long ago and the early Mennonites believed they would look nothing like what they do today. Pacifism and "caring for the poor" (whatever that means) have become the mantra of the Mennonite church (and Evangelicalism as a whole) today and are considered the only things important to God. This is a works based salvation and nothing at all resembling what Menno believed. Bear in mind, Menno Simmons was originally a Catholic priest who got saved when he started reading the Bible for himself. Isn't that amazing?

A final question, why did it take 116 years of Mennonites to finally decide that the "Star Spangled Banner" could no longer be sung at school functions? Isn't that amazing?

@elegance

Actually, last year was the first time they had ever played it in 116 years... (in the article)

Randy, of course he wasn't, but it was his country (empire) of residence. Kind of like the slaves in America where not citizens but their lives were still governed by America's laws.

The comments are interesting. Several people did not read the article very well. Goshen College did not sing the Star Spangled Banner for 116 years. Last year, for the first time, they approved using the song at sports events. They reversed the decision this year. The reason is not that they refuse to be grateful for their country. The Star Spangled Banner glorifies war and attributes freedom to war. I am not an American and I knew that.......

Here's some pre-mennonite thoughts for you:
"Nothing is more foreign to us than the State." -Tertullian.

Apparently it isn't well known by Christians that the Anabaptist position on pacifism and participation in the civil government were the norm for the first century and a half of the Church (thus Tertullian's statement, quoted above). May I point out that "allegiance" and "subjection to civil authority" are not the same thing. One means giving your loyalty to the state; the other means accepting its right to regulate civic issues within the bounds God has set. We are commanded in the New Testament to subject ourselves to the authorities. I see no place where we are commanded to pledge our allegiance. As I noted above, I'm not an Anabaptist; but I do think the Anabaptists have a point. And, as Mark said in his essay, Anabaptists have historically been willing to suffer the consequences for their theology.

"I see no place where we are commanded to pledge our allegiance. As I noted above, I'm not an Anabaptist; but I do think the Anabaptists have a point."

I agree too, but then, I ask, how do they reconcile recieving federal funds when it is considered that what one hand recieves from Caesar, the other hand gives over to what Caesar wants.

I have yet to encounter any agency to which the government gives over funding that hasn't required a quid pro quo in other areas.
Some colleges refuse ROTC programs even though the lost of the ROTC dollars from the government were needed.
Seems to me that consistency is the issue here.

I'm all for separation of Church and State, but when the state hands over cash...yeah...don't care how much the Goshen trumpets their "non-govermental affiliation" that cash packet screams "TROLLOLOLOL!"

Everybody has a price...and everybody rationalizes their price when a buyer meets the price-tag..."You don't want to sing the pledge, thats okay, but someday we're going to need a favor, and when that day comes, Goshen, we'll expect you to fulfill your end of the bargain. By the way, nice buildings you have on your campus, be a real shame if something were to happen to them...like a change of ownership. Just say'n."

elegance, I have to admit that I am truly astonished/puzzled by your unusually harsh language this time. I happen to share a lot of tears praying on 4th of July this time, watching folks completely in spiritual bondage around me, celebrating.. well, fireworks! "Back in the USSR" I, enlisted as a young soldier of the Soviet Army, found myself getting sentenced for 4 1/2 years after refusing of taking a military pledge, the decision I never intended to make, but...As interrogations continued and more pressure was applied on me, the Words of my Lord grew really precious inside, all of them! One of the thoughts was: there are Christian brothers abroad, how could I fight them? (Should I tell you, who was the enemy #1 for the Soviet Union?)I, a trembling skinny boy standing against Soviet military machine, somehow managed to say: "No!" My young wife, left behind was expecting, and there were many other things to consider, like a certain promise of a KGB guy, etc. My older friend, now a great Pentecostal minister, was senteced to a prison term, tortured, came back home physically crippled, but a what a joyous Christian he still is! The Lord delivered me that time and,years later, I was able to share the whole story before chaplains and officers at Fort Banning, GA. I mean, when you pledge allegiance to the King, just keep your word to Him foremost! I find this article wonderful, brothers and sisters! p.s. please, forgive my still poor English composition ability.

Vik, what are you reading from elegance that seems harsh to you? Can you be more specific?

sherahkahn, on your rhetorical FAFSA question: don't our Mennonite brothers pay their taxes? I know many of them, they are very honest and "hard-working people" (an American cliche, sorry!) Why should we now juggle with our words, speaking idly about one's conscience, which is very Christ-centered, by the way?

Vic, something bothers me greatly about your account of being a soldier in the USSR. You chose to join a military and then refused to take the military pledge? Does this make any sense? Either you were conscripted against your will (in which case; how did you end up here in the U.S.?) or you joined and then refused to take the pledge just to make some sort of statement (in which case; how did you end up here in the U.S.?) In any case, you ended up here where no one will ask you or force you to join the military and no one will force you to take a pledge of loyalty to the U.S. unless, of course, you wish to become a citizen. Even if you choose to remain here without becoming a citizen - and I know you are inside the U.S. because you were obviously watching a fireworks display on the 4th- you will not even be required to prove you are not an enemy. You never had it so good! And how is the mere act of watching a fireworks display a sign of spiritual bondage, anyway? The more I think about what you have written the more I wonder if you are even Russian or merely creative storyteller. By the way; where and what were you sentenced to and which years were you there? It's okay to tell now that the USSR is no longer Communist.

Elegance, first, there was no oportunity to choose in the USSR - the law required all of the citizens to serve in the Army. I did not have much a choice on this matter; but I did have a choice, as well as many of my young friends, whether to be a Christ's faithful or not in a godless society. It meant to be ready to pay any price, I must say. Second, there are a lot of signs of spiritual bondage everywhere these days, don't you see? They are too evident, unfortunately. That makes me really sad, because it was easy to fall in love with this country and all of you, guys, considering America's most impressive missionary heritage. How did I end up in the US? Although I don't quite understand the context of your question; however, I guess, that was my dream, since my Father, a minister of the Lord, told me some stories about Billy Graham (years later, I was fortunate to meet B.G. in Moscow, in 1991), Oral Roberts, and he himself used an example of Martin Luther King, Jr., when dealing with the authorities. Then there was a verbal agreement between Pres. Reagan and Secretary Gorbachev, allowing us to immigrate. Am I an enemy? if you read my post, you know the answer; and I was not an enemy of my home country either, although some folks would sometimes through rocks into our windows and called us some funny names, like "American spies", ha-ha! Again, the main question this article inspires for every Christian of any origin: where is your primary citizenship? if it is in the Kingdom of God, then the whole story is profoundly different.

smuse, no, I can't be more specific, since it's just a subjective observation. But you have a point here: there is a certain level of some strange hostility toward each other in almost every Christian discussion these days. I regret it, speaking for myself. Having a lot of respect toward all people in the military, I suggest that there must also be some among us, whose calling is to be a sort of peaceful peacemaker. Like Mennonites. Or, like Christ Jesus, if you will.

"don't our Mennonite brothers pay their taxes?"

As did Y'shua, so, nothing remarkable, and yet if I, an organization, were to say on one hand, "Bah, I am independent of the Government for I want no influence from the goverment in my organization!" but on the other hand, take Government money say, in the form of subsidies/grants/pay-outs/gov-sponsored-programs...doesn't that make me a bit of a hypocrit?
If an organization recieves government money that organization is now open for oversight and audits by the government.

I know many of them, they are very honest and "hard-working people" (an American cliche, sorry!)

Individual character and work ethic is not in question...the organizations seemingly inconsistency with walking the talk is the point of contention.

Why should we now juggle with our words, speaking idly about one's conscience, which is very Christ-centered, by the way?

Whose juggling?
I am pointing out a glaring inconsistency...whether it is right or wrong for them to take money is not the issue. The issue is the inconsistency between narrative and action.

Sheerahkhan, I appreciate your quality answer. It seems also you noticed my inevitably Ukrainianized expression and struggling with proper translation. Most of all I appreciate your reverence to our Savior, Y'shua Ha Mashiah. You are absolutely right that our Lord did right things in terms of paying taxes to Caesar; yet we cannot imagine Him joining either the Roman Army or leading any Jewish liberation revolt, can we? He established His Kingdom instead. So, again, if He is the King, then my alegeance, is to Him all the time, regardless of the environment, current demands of the society, etc.

Let me ask you a question, may I? What if, under some unfortunate surcumstances the administration will decide, G-d forbid! to make Israel to do certain things by using military force? What will the soldiers of the country, blessed so much to this point because of supporting Israel, do then? Will they (well, some of them, let's say, Christians) read their Bible and refuse to go against the will of the King of kings, or will they choose to put the narrative aside for awhile ("Accept Islam now, repent later!", words of a bishop from "Kingdom of Heaven") and do the will of the Caesar first?
I see complete consistency in doing the will of the King first, Brother! When second option means nothing but consistent inconsistency, although humanly approved.

During WWII Pentecostals in Ukraine tried to help Jews who struggled throughout the war. Because they read their Bible. Were they supposed to submit to the German authorities that looked very legitimate at that, not now, time?

I answer your question with another...why didn't Peter take Judas's route of expressing shame of his betrayal?

I believe you will find my answer in there.

"Mike Milligan, an accounting major and baseball player who will be a junior next fall, supports the college's decision to play the national anthem and said the controversy over playing the anthem has died down significantly.

"The only time I noticed any discussion regarding the anthem was during a convocation dedicated to the issue. It has been nice to focus on friendship and schoolwork rather than such a sensitive topic," he said." - Source: Huffington Post 5/26/11

I certainly respect those who choose not to sing the Star-Spangled Banner or recite the Pledge of Allegiance for religious convictions. I would simply ask them to respect those of us who choose to do so. For the record, I do believe in the separation of church and state, although that phrase can legitimately be interpreted in different ways and in various degrees. We don't really do anything special for national holidays at any of the three churches I serve as pastor. This past weekend we had no National Anthem or Pledge during our worship services. My sermon was on Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch; and of how through the death of Jesus, all people regardless of ethnicity, social class, or other distinctions were welcomed to participate in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus through baptism and become a part of the new people of God. Now that I think about it, the message wasn't intended as direct confrontation of nationalism. It's just what I felt God wanted me to share that weekend.

And yet, we do have the American flag in our sanctuaries. If I were to visit a church from our denomination in Mexico, they would most likely have a Mexican flag there. And we do sometimes sing the National Anthem and recite the Pledge in some church-related functions, though not in our worship services. And no one is forced to do it. Anyone with religious convictions against it is free to abstain. But we do these things not because of Nationalism. For me, it is consistent with Jesus' desire that we be IN the world, but not OF it. For me, the flag reminds me that I am not just a Christian--I am a Christian whom God has called in a specific PLACE. I am to live the life of Christ in the context of 21st century North America.

Yes, tensions will arise by living in two kingdoms. But tensions are a part of living the Christian life, and I try to live in those tensions the best I can through the grace God provides. I know where my true allegiance lies. I feel free to criticize my nation's culture and policies when they are inconsistent with Way of Jesus. In fact, I feel I have the right to criticize BECAUSE I try to be a good citizen.

So, it turns out that like most of life, things are not quite as simple as they appear to be at first. Like I said at the beginning, I respect those who have taken the time to wrestle with these issues, and prayerfully study and reflect on the Scriptures, and have come to the conviction not to sing the National Anthem. It is a position with legitimate arguments. But please keep in mind that there are others of us who have equally wrestled with these issues, who have equally studied and reflected on the Scriptures, and who have come to different convictions. You may not agree with my position. But I will not judge you for abstaining. I simply ask that you not judge us for participating.

Humbly, this discussion enriched me indeed. I wish every Christian soul to enjoy a blessed Lord's day tomorrow! Surely, we all shall continue to pray for the country we love. Blessings!

Brother Bill, that was very well said, and I hope you never feel judged by those who arrive at a different conviction. I am not aware of that judgment in my own spirit, but I do find myself more on the defensive against belligerent "patriotism." Some thoughts: (1) We are to seek the peace and blessing for wherever we dwell. In the USA, I pray for its peace and blessing. When I lived for years under a facist regime, I sought its peace and blessing too (and no, I never felt any less free, and no, I didn't change my testimony because my testimony and freedom come from Jesus - they are not dependent on the political context.) (2) We need to do better history. When my forebearers came to N. America, we had almost seventy years of peace and freedom, without the requirement of loyalty oaths or pledges, until the hotheads took over in 1776. Both Britain and Canada have taken a different path, and enjoy no less freedoms than are enjoyed in the USA. (3) When possible, no matter our convictions, we should care for the veterans. They have personally bore the brunt of the wars and usually suffer for it. However, when asked, I can't assure them that some of their buddies didn't die in vain. For some of the politics that sent them into these misadventures were vain. It is a hard word, but true. May we all love Jesus, the church and the neighbors he gives us.

It's incorrect to say that Great Britain and Canada enjoy the same freedoms that we have in the US. For one thing, the people are taxed at a much higher rate in both countries, so people have less freedom to spend or donate the money that they earn. For another thing, street preachers have been arrested in both of those countries for preaching against homosexuality. For another thing, people do not have the right to bear arms, which is another freedom that we have in the US. Maybe you don't want those freedoms, but many of us do, and I'm glad that we still have those freedoms. One more additional freedom is that we have better food in the US, the British food is not so great. j/k on that (kind of)

Sister Barbara, the tax difference is small, and in some cases less for landowners, thanks to the many layers in our governments. A comparision at the national level won't reveal that. I know men who have done time in jail for street preaching in Philadelphia. And the right to bear arms ... I have no interest in this since Jesus said the one who lived by the sword would die by the same. My calling is to bind up wounds, not create fresh ones. Grace and peace to you this day.

Brother Stephen, perhaps you can point out the article where an American preacher was arrested for speaking out against homosexualiy on US streets. The only articles I saw were of American preachers being arrested in Great Britain. It is against the law in Canada and Great Britain to speak out against it, it is called hate speech, and at least at this time, it is not in the US, although I'm not surprised if Obama will change that. Also, I don't really care if you don't care about the right to bear arms, I do care. The crime rate rises every time guns are taken away. It's the first thing that Hitler did, was remove the right of the people to have arms. There has been a great increase in homocides in Australia when they removed gun rights, because of course, the criminals don't turn their guns in. It's an amendment to our Constitution to be able to own guns. If you don't like it, please feel free to go to Great Britain or Canada since you don't think they pay greater taxes, although they do.

Street preaching to those caught up in homosexual activity isn't my hill to die on, but you asked-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00DTfpTLcI
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54276
-to cite a few of many references.

I do care deeply about the idolization of the right to bear arms. Why are Christians so worried about the things that are Caesar's? What is this "our" this and "our" that? These things are Caesar's concerns. There are many things I don't care for in many nations. But that is where Christ the Lord calls us to labour in love. The USA is where Christ the Lord currently has me - I serve Him and am not permitted to go globe-trotting after elusive political "rights" or low taxes. Where is the pursuit of these things chartered in Scripture? Multitudes are sliding to hell without Jesus and without hope, and we're worried about love of country, arms, crime and taxes?

Actually I love the Star Spangled Banner. True, we do not want to mingle church with state to the effect that the state becomes the enforcing tool of the church as it was all over Europe. Even today, the German Fiskus (IRS) retains church tax for Lutheran and Catholic believers of their pay checks.
Yet, this being said, when I hear the music and listen to the lyrics, realizing what a momentous situation it was when Old Glory was still flying its colors in one of the battles in Baltimore Harbor in the war of 1812, I think of it quite moving. Lets not forget, Englishmen and others left Europe for the New World because of persecution by the established church. Jefferson made it also very clear to the Baptists that government never should dictate what kind of belief the citizens of this country should have.
The problem today is that we think in a box. We find ourselves not capable to embrace that other peoples in this world, even so they are Christians, may not necessarily share the American version of Christianity. Christians in poor countries deal with a whole range of different issues than people in rich countries where religious freedoms are enjoyed. Just like the gentile view of the Old and New Testament does not align with the Jewish perspective of a believer in Yeshua.
Once a nation takes a turn for the worse, it is not wrong to cling to what was once good, or at least better. But if a nation does not turn for the better, it is the faith in God that gives us hope to our ultimate home.