Claiborne has this wrong from the beginning. First, this story is not about the woman. It's about Jesus. Second, the charges were spurious at best and her execution would not have been legal. Jesus gave the correct application of the Law (Torah) and it was full of grace.

It was a setup and it was designed to get Jesus to commit a crime against Roman and Jewish law. Read it and get the background before you spout off. The first problem is these people brought only the woman to a rabbi/teacher, not to the Sanhedrin. Second, where's the man? Third, how did they "catch" her? Fourth, if the Torah commanded the woman be stoned, why are they asking Jesus?

The whole proceeding was not legal. Get the facts. It smelled funny and Jesus knew it.

Claiborne is proof-texting. He needs to go back and make a better case.

Hi All,

I find the above comments about the context of the adulterous woman overlooking salient features of the passage. If the author of that comment want to be 100% technically correct, then he/she should have added that scholarship casts doubt on the validity of the story, and that it's likely to be inauthentic. Such an admission would render moot every comment on the subject.

But let's accept that this event may have actually happened. I find it hard to accept that comment say that the event isn't about the women and only about Jesus, when, in fact, after the accusers leave Jesus turns his full attention to the woman. So at least, we can say that it was about Jesus and the woman involved. Does anyone honestly think that Jesus cared not for the woman and only the strictest interpretation of Torah.

Whoever wrote the comment appeals to OT stipulations, but should have made it clear that death penalties were carried out for offenses that we would consider minor today such as rebelling against one's parents, or lying about one's virginity. So why pick and choose among OT stipulations. Torah cannot be partially followed but ought to be completely adhered to.

Personally I see Jesus' act of grace toward offenders primarily because dead people don't repent. OT penalties were carried out regardless of whether a person repented or not. So Jesus extends to sinners every opportunity to repent because something much worse than the death penalty is coming down the pike, namely judgment day.

Lastly, it's all fine to insist on the strictest interpretation of the law until one's life is on the line. I do not know of anyone who is guilty standing before a judge demands the most strict application of law. In fact, everyone who goes to court hopes that the judge will rule in their favor. Since all of us are sinners before God, what we should be crying out for is mercy not the most strict and technically correct application of law under which all of us would stand condemned.

Yuri

Shane,

John 8:3-11, which has Jesus not endorsing the stoning of the adultress women does not support Him being against capital punishment. It is a good point but invalid in context.

Because the Romans held the rule of life and death and the right to implement capital punishment, this was a challenge to Jesus to commit sedition. If He had said, "Go ahead," He would have been arrested. By itself this offers no injunction against capital punishment, since it was not really an option; moreover, Jesus' reply indicates, "If we are to enforce it this time, some of you are next."

The constraints of Roman power were acknowledged -- though capital punishment itself was not thereby repudiated.

Yuri wrote, "...he/she should have added that scholarship casts doubt on the validity of the story, and that it's likely to be inauthentic. ....But let's accept that this event may have actually happened."

'scholarship'? 'Scholars' have cast doubts on just about everything, including the whole of the Bible, each other, and themselves.
So we get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible we deem authentic? (Which goes FAR beyond debating the meanings or correct translations of certain verses.)
The story is as it stands - the woman does not scream a denial - she was in mortal danger, regardless whether it was a 'trap' or not. Jesus taught us a lesson about ourselves and showed Mercy to the woman.
Brother, that's the word of God, in more ways than one. Thanks be to God.

i can't support the death penalty, but life imprisonment may be worse. Suicides are common in prison, which are some of the most inhumane places on earth.

So steve, we just eliminate prison and punishment all together for those who commit murder and say, "Go your way, Jesus loves you."?

"So steve, we just eliminate prison and punishment all together for those who commit murder and say, "Go your way, Jesus loves you."?
No, elegance, not at all. Sorry I gave the wrong impression. I'm just saying, I've always thought that I would prefer death to a life in prison as they are now. Apparently others also. It's not the Christian way, suicide, as even in prison one could serve the Lord. I just doubt I would have the strength to carry on under the circumstances, and I guess that's doubting God's power as well, as it is written "I can do all things through God, who strengthens me."
Prisons are in great need of reform. Right now, they are not well ordered, and prisoners, while their sentences may be just, do not deserve inhumane treatment.

Uh boy...I was trying to avoid commenting here, but some comments have pulled me in.../sigh...

"If the author of that comment want to be 100% technically correct, then he/she should have added that scholarship casts doubt on the validity of the story, and that it's likely to be inauthentic."

Yuri,
I have no idea what you are writing about...scholar's don't think this happened?
Really?
I want to see names and papers that support/defend that statement of yours.

Secondly,

Wyatt,
This story is about both. The woman is us, the bride, the Church, each of us individually who have been whoring ourselves out to the world...this story captures in a moment the entire ministry of Y'shua.
It's a gospel synopsis.

And finally, while I'm at it...

Mr. Claiborne,
The death penalty is what it is...the good, the bad, and the gray of both have been executed for a variety of reasons.
The survivors of the criminal often see his death as the close of a existential fear, and the criminal...perhaps, the final release from a fate worse than death.

Perhaps, instead, we should focus on us as a people...executions are not times to celebrate as is often the case outside many prisons during an execution.
Executions are a time to mourn...for both the survivors, and for the person who committed the crime.

But the saddest thing of all, Mr. Claiborne is that you missed an opportunity to speak to that...and instead, dove headlong, wittingly or otherwise, into the muck and mire of the debate about the death penalty.

Which, I guess, is typical...for us as humans when we get focused so much on one topic we can no longer think rationally...ah well. done is done.

Yuri,
I await those names and/or papers, and I expect to see either them, or an admission that what you did was an appeal to authority to substantiate your opinion.
That is to say, it is okay for you to have an opinion of doubt of veracity, it is not okay to make stuff up to substantiate your doubt.

I think there's little direct application of NT writings about government, since American democracy is such a far cry from the Roman-ruled world in which the NT cannon was written. If we ourselves bear responsibility as governing authorities (as citizens in a representative democracy), how ought our government to wield temporal power? In what circumstances ought our government to wield deadly force?

If your answer is "not at all," then you're essentially an anarchist. But if there are cases when a government might justly use force (even deadly force), then what are the criteria for doing so?

Sheer, for what it's worth, I suspect that Yuri is alluding to the findings of textual criticism that since this passage about the woman caught in adultery is not found in some of the earliest manuscripts of this Gospel, some scholars think it is a later interpolation. You could probably find that noted in most study Bibles. This, in and of itself, certainly does not invalidate the story's truth or inspiration. That it is still included in our Bibles is testimony to the fact that the Church throughout its history has accepted the story and its teaching as true and of apostolic origin.

I certainly agree with you that executions are a time to mourn, both for the victims and perpetrators.

Sheer,

Come on! Stretch the text like Shane. Please don't. Allegory has it's place, but not here.

I should have said the story is mostly about Jesus. The woman unfortunately is a prop, a tool used by others to get Jesus to break Roman and Jewish law.

This story has very little if anything to do with the death penalty. Jesus upheld Torah by ruling in favor of the woman. He showed everybody how Torah and grace protect the innocent and the falsely or unlawfully accused. "He who is without sin" means the people who wrongly brought this woman to Jesus were guilty of perjury and murder if Jesus had said, "Kill her". Jesus would have been guilty of the same plus sedition. Torah not only protected the woman but also those who brought the woman under unlawful means to Jesus. They dropped their "case" and walked away and Jesus reprimanded the woman but leaving her with no shame (“Go now and leave your life of sin.”)

No. The Torah is good, God-glorifying and full of grace and properly applied yields reward. Jesus did it right like He always does.

Let's be careful not to turn this forum, as has happened in too many religious comment sections, into an electronic "RACA!" exchange while we determine what to do with those heinous murderers.

Hi,

To those who were questioning about the validity of the adulterous women being questioned by scholars, please check your bibles and look at the footnote below. Most modern bibles indicate that the story according to manuscript evidence appears to be a later addition, and therefore is regarded as likely to be inauthentic. This position is not only held by liberals but also conservates. (To Sheerakahn, as for names and papers of scholars the list would be very long but for starters you can contact Daniel Wallace at dwallace@dts.edu.)

This is more a matter of textual criticism than it is for discussing the merits of upholding the death penalty. To be sure, the state has a right to carry out capital punishment. We could argue all day about the pros and cons of capital punishment and settle nothing.

Given that Jesus radically interpreted the Sabbath, which, if broken, demanded death, I am inclined to thinnk that even if all legal precedences were in place that Jesus would not have started picking up stones to happily uphold Torah. The question that should be asked is that if everything was kosher, do you still think that Jesus would has said "Go ahead, stone her?" From what I know, I sincerely doubt it.

Those wanting to debate capital punishment will find that arguments can be made for both sides. However from a Christian viewpoint, I'm more concerned with motivation toward mercy, leniency, grace and forgiveness even for murderers and the worst kind. Life in prison is "more" punishment than death and adds the possibility of a person later repenting and even possibly making amends. But a death penalty will take away a person's every chance of redemption or reconciliation, and as a Christian I don't think that is my prerogative but rather God's.

Yuri

Wow, this conversation picked up the pace since I checked in earlier today! :^D

I agree with Karen. I'm no expert at textual criticism, but even if this story was in fact a later addition, that does not necessarily invalidate the occurrence of the actual event or the authority of the story's teaching.

I also agree with sheerahkahn that executions are not a time to celebrate, but to mourn.

We have a very warped idea of justice. Someone kills, so the State kills that person in response, and we call that "justice." But that's not justice. That's punishment (at it's best; at it's worst, it's vengeance). TRUE justice, BIBLICAL justice, goes beyond mere punishment. True justice is ultimately about "putting things to rights" (as N. T. Wright phrases it), i.e. restoring things to the way they were. Whether you execute the perpetrator or not, the victim is still gone, and neither option brings them back! True justice will not take place until the resurrection and the new heavens and new earth.

The fact is that we don't really have a justice system. At best, we have a legal system that attempt to be just (which is what makes us different from Old Testament Israel, for those who try to argue from the OT that God sanctions the use of the death penalty). But seeing as how our legal system is based on very sinful and fallen human beings, I would seriously question the use of something so final as the death penalty. There is no way to overturn a death penalty if a mistakenly convicted perpetrator is later exonerated.

I also agree with Nate, and have felt the same for a long time now. In 21st century North America, WE are the State, something which was not true in 1st century Palestine. This is a relatively new concept in the history of the world, and we as Christians need to learn how to make this work. And sometimes that means that at least some of us will have to dive into the muck and mire of contemporary, political debates. So have some patience, sheerahkahn, with those like Mr. Claiborne who DO feel called to do so; and don't assume that because they don't say the things you think they should say, that it is because they are not thinking rationally. He may not be, but don't be too quick to assume it. After all, if everyone wrote what you believed, we'd have no reason to read your opinion!

Thank you, Yuri, I will.

Wyatt,
allegory does not invalidate the situation, nor does the situation invalidate the allegory...if anything, enhances it. Something to keep in mind for the future.

"Mr. Claiborne who DO feel called to do so; and don't assume that because they don't say the things you think they should say, that it is because they are not thinking rationally. He may not be, but don't be too quick to assume it."

Point taken and understood.

Why do I love Anabaptists like Clairborne? Because the responses to him from more mainstream evangelicals wonderfully illustrate this two-parted phenomenon:

1.) Verses that are in accordance with the positions I hold should be read at "face value" or "literally" and other people who do something wishy-washy like "reading in context" or in the "light of all scripture" are hiding from the truth.

2.) Verses that are at tension with positions I hold should be read "in context" and "in the light of all of scripture", and people who try to read them at "face value" or "literally" are being ignorant proof-texters.

Rinse and repeat, bake at 350 degrees for around 50 years, and you have most evangelicals exegetical formula. A pox on all our heads.

In sadness,
Tom

Has Claiborne ever said or done as much against the death penalty for the MILLIONS of unborn (abortion) as he has for a few hundred vile criminals? If not, and I doubt it, then his statements here are mere rationalizing of a political mud thrower, not a spiritual follower of Christ.

There are sound Biblical and social arguments for the death penalty for repeat, multiple and gross murderers. There is not one valid Biblical or social argument for the killing of the unborn.

"No one is beyond redemption"

All of us are under a death penalty at an unknown moment and will answer to Christ at that point for our eternal destiny. The death row criminal has a known date and time and is without excuse to that time whether he repents or not. If we think that God wants us to let them live as long as possible to give them as much time to repent as possible, then we should be expecting God to let every lost soul live 400 or so years to give them more mercy and grace. God does not do this himself, so seeking life extension for the criminal because we think God wants us to extend mercy and grace is bogus logic in my opinion. Yes, there are many beyond redemption.

It is shameful to read Christians cheering the execution of criminals just as the Romans cheered the execution of Christians. Jesus Christ was tried, convicted and executed lawfully. Just because the state does it rather than an individual does not automatically confer God's blessing on murder.

The death penalty is one of those instances where secular countries demonstrate they have a better grasp of the Kingdom than our so-called Christian nation. We wash our hands like Pilate. Ineffectively.

Tim,

A google search might help you answer your question on abortion and Shane's position.

I'm puzzled by your logic. I'm honestly not sure why the conversation is about extending someone's life in hope of change, when withholding the death penalty isn't about artificially extending someone's life. It's about not artificially shortening it. If as I think you suggest it's God's place to pronounce this, why we would take that on ourselves?

Tom F., It is your post that saddens me. . . for two reasons. First is that you have run into this behavior enough to build a stereotype out of it. That is truly unfortunate and I'm sorry. . . but the second reason is that you chosen to broad brush a large group of people with the stereotype you have created, while elevating yourself and whatever exegetical position you are coming from (which is not really clear). It sounds as if you have been around this behavior enough to know it is not an Evangelical thing, but rather a Christian thing. . . or more honestly a human thing. EVERYONE at some time or another prooftexts, avoids evidence,etc. to help with an argument they are having. That just makes them fallible. But to say that all of any group do it all the time is just plain incorrect.

"It is shameful to read Christians cheering the execution of criminals..." when and where did this happen?

Shane's post has opened my eyes to the fact that just because someone has done something that may "deserve" the death penalty that doesn't mean that as a Christian we should pursue the death penalty. I used to think that if someone committed murder then he/she should be killed for their crime. However, I'm reminded of where Christ talks about the law saying an eye for an eye but He (Christ) saying to turn the other cheek. Also, Christ says that we are to forgive others 70 x's 7; in other words every time. God is a God of grace. He is also just; meaning that those that do wrong must be punished but there is always a chance for those that have done wrong to be redeemed.

""It is shameful to read Christians cheering the execution of criminals..." when and where did this happen?"

Apparently, you missed the news about Rick Perry's boast of 234 executions, and the applause it drew.
Of course, that's just politics, but when you have people outside the prison cheering...yep, really makes the home team look bad.

Of course, we shouldn't be surprised, for it was Jerry Falwell who said, albeit, for "terrorists" except that in the past such individuals were treated as crimnials I guess elevations of existential threats are the new MO for those who want to incite fear..."Kill them all in the name of the Lord."

Kind of sucks to defend a faith when we have that to contend with.

Steve
I googled Shane and abortion and came up with nothing definitive, but did find a lot of nuancing and deprecating believers who think abortion is horrible and that many avenues should be pursued to educate against it and stop it- the typical false accusation of single-issue voters.

"If as I think you suggest it's God's place to pronounce this, why we would take that on ourselves?"

Perhaps you could read from Romans 13 where we see God giving His authority to men to use the sword, an instrument of death, to avenge and brings God's wrath to the wrong doer.

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.

Thus, capital punishment is not artificial shortening. Seeking to make spiritual claims that a horrendous criminal should never be killed since at some point he might repent is artificial lengthening of life.

" I'm honestly not sure why the conversation is about extending someone's life in hope of change"

Perhaps you missed the quote I highlighted "no life is beyond redemption" being used as a basis for stopping capital punishment.

Sheer
I don't remember Perry boasting. He was merely answering the question. Who are you to suggest the cheers were for each dead person and not for their moral claim that the death penalty is good for society and their fight against those who smear, corrupt, and lie about it.

"Sheer
I don't remember Perry boasting. He was merely answering the question."

Of course not...no politician in front of their party base ever boasts about their record...come on Tim, don't be a tool for those fools.

"Who are you to suggest the cheers were for each dead person and not for their moral claim that the death penalty is good for society and their fight against those who smear, corrupt, and lie about it."

Wait...what?
Seriously?
You jumped to a conclusion based on limited information and then pile shameless ignorance on top of it all...

Fascinating.

sheer
".no politician in front of their party base" ever boasts about their record"
That was national TV, with NBC questioners, not just party base.

"Tim, don't be a tool for those fools."
There are many fools in politics but I am not so "shameless and ignorant" to assume they all are fools. I choose not to mock those who "do not bear the sword in vain, for he is a servant of God..." as Paul says in his shameless wisdom from God.

Am I somehow misunderstanding you?

Tim,

I'm going to take this opportunity to rephrase because I was quite surprised by what you wrote...so, this is what I am thinking as I reread your previous post...and to be honest...I reread it five times...each time reassessing my reaction to find why I was surprised and curious at your response...
_____________________________________________
You do know that the system you speak so highly of regularly sends innocent people to jail, or to death even though the evidence contradicts statements of the State and of witnesses, with often times, later on unfortunately, it being too late to set things right...so tell me, how do you square this statement

"...and not for their moral claim that the death penalty is good for society and their fight against those who smear, corrupt, and lie about it."

With that fact?

Who am I, you say, but the question is, how is it you can be so certain of your "moral" claim when the evidence of falsity in the Courtroom is not an abberration, but a common occurrence?

And now, my perspection...

Whom, Tim, do you follow, G-d, or the world?

That Tim, is what I see overwritten on your post, and by association of my own curiosity, why I find it fascinating because you are a first for me...

passionate about G-d, and yet seemingly slaved to a world system/view that at best should be mistrusted, and at worst, patiently forgiving of it's failures...because, as I see it, the world does what it does because it knows no other way, and yet with you, as I said, seems to me, the only way.

Too me, and this is what comes through in your writing...that you are cemented in old-testament legalism, and yet tenderly trying to massage the Grace and Mercy of Y'shua into your world view so that you can enjoy the benefits of grace and mercy yourself while still reserving the right to throw down the gauntlet of Law on those you deem needing a little old school correction without concern of actual guilt or innocence.

Part of me refuses to believe that anyone can be so callous, and yet my experience with people has often, disappointingly, disabuses me of my disbelief.

I am hoping that, yes, there is a misunderstanding...on my part...of your thinking. I prefer to be wrong on this, than right.

Sheer
"You do know that the system you speak so highly of regularly sends innocent people to jail, or to death…"
Regularly? Based on what? I don't believe every alleged report on the web or media about innocence on death penalty cases. I have a lot more confidence in our justice system then the web or media - all of whom speak with great inaccuracy, and direct lies. And all of these people love having millions of babies murdered simply for convenience and cover up sexual orgy, all the while lying about "safe" sex. With this world view, just how much can you trust them? I examine where the info comes from and judge it accordingly. Does that make me a follower of the world?

I don't like innocent people being charged and I also don't like guilty people going free. Both happen in our system. Death penalty cases get far more appeals and benefits of slim doubts then they deserve imo. There are probably hundreds of obvious convicted cold blooded murders in California living off my tax dollars and sucking them away from the needy. I am not okay with that. This is mostly due to a few folks who can deceptively manipulate the laws that call for their death.

"Whom, Tim, do you follow, G-d, or the world?"
If I followed the world I would be believing what they say about all the falsity in the courtroom. I would not question the horrendous views these folks have about life and death. I would take it all in. But I don't. I gave you scripture from the New, not the Old Testament about the authority God has given men to avenge evil doers. You have not said a word about that. I believe that grace and mercy includes freeing victims of horrendous crimes and society as a whole from being forced to pay for food, lodging and every need of evil doers.

Do you have a basis for me that says I should believe everything the world says that is anti-death penalty or that suggests someone going there is innocent?

"Do you have a basis for me that says I should believe everything the world says that is anti-death penalty or that suggests someone going there is innocent?"

I've read, and re-read your post, and to narrow my response, this is what I'm saying:

I am in total, and complete disagreement with your world view.

But...

I thank you for responding, and I now understand your thinking a lot more.

I have zero confidence in our justice system.

Or rather I should say the justice system for poor people. The justice system for people with money works much better.

We have two justice systems in our society, just as we have two systems for health care, political representation, education and many other things. The one you get depends on the wealth you have.

I sincerely doubt that all the unexecuted murderers in the nation consume as many of my tax dollars as Big Oil. If you are concerned about the costs associated with living expenses for people who kill other people, then the best place to cut that is to get us out of the Middle East.

Tim, have you ever read "Dead Man Walking?' I recommend it to all thoughtful Christians on this issue. I don't think any Christian truly understands what it means to support the death penalty until they see it in its concrete human reality.

I once heard a preacher assert that even though stoning to death was the commanded punishment for disobedient children in the OT, there is absolutely no evidence in the text of Scripture itself (or the archeological evidence?) that this particular commandment was ever actually carried out in Israel. On the other hand, we do have examples like King David's with his rebellious son, Absolom (where there was not just rebellion, but also betrayal and treason). And the Scripture describes King David as a man after God's own heart.

(cont.) I think the story of David and Absolom and the countless others like it in Scripture are there for a reason as well.

Re: Dead Man Walking, the book (true story) is by Sister Helen Prejean and it has been made into an Oscar-winning film with Susan Sarandon playing Sister Helen. I read the book, but haven't seen the film. I was in favor of the death penalty (on the basis of Scriptures prescribing it) when I only knew what that meant in a theoretical way. I resisted reading the book for a long time because I didn't think it really had anything to teach me. I couldn't have been more mistaken.

I don't know if you all have read this article, but I think it gives a better perspective of the reaches of grace and the Gospel. Check it out: http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2011/summer/makingministers.html

Why can't we just rejoice at the fact that a life was saved, and in a way most important might I add. If you really knew my father and his son Jesus the joy you would receive from the sheer fact that a life was saved shown mercy and given a second chance at life, in which time the ex-prisoner decided to fall for Jesus and is now a Christian because of that Jesus like mercy he was shown (go figure). But instead you focus on your political-attachments to the world. You're feelings toward the death penalty that are not from God but from the violent and vendetta bent land from which you came. Stop just being products of your environment and political affiliations, surrender your pride and allow yourself to be shaped and molded by God alone as you were meant to be.
in love and in truth,
Daniel

My comment would be identical to a blog I recently wrote in response to Bin Laden's death. Jesus engages us with grace and I don't think Claiborne can be noted as misinterpreting this passage anymore than you or I can. A bit ironic.

http://www.pacifisticuffs.blogspot.com/

Death is a big thing,i believe in another chance, but that chance means nothing when you do not learn. Alot of people get the picture after punishment.(cant learn when your dead)Then theres people like me who get scared right out of it be for punishment is taken place. Now Jesus probably saw that and understood death would keep her from changing her ways.