Sometimes we ought not try to explain away Jesus' hardest (and simplest) points.

What would Jesus say about Wall Street?

I think He would tell us that we have to look deep within ourselves of why we are so obsessed with Wall Street at the moment. Is it because we love and care for the people working there, or is it because money is really our god. Did we care show this much helpfulness before 2008? When everything were going great, did we care then? It seems the love of money can really move people to care :-)

Maybe we should be asking what Jesus say about the Wall Street Protesters; Mostly white college students who aren't attending class and don't need a part-time job to get through college because they either have tax-payer funded scholarships or Daddy is footing the bill. They must be the progeny of 1970's protesters who were the Marxists of their day. Many of those folks today are wealthy university professors with full medical, guaranteed jobs for life and fat pensions. They feed lavishly at the public trough while continually bashing folks who actually work hard and take risk with their own money to create wealth. Shane doesn't seem interested in helping the people who create private sector jobs stay in business so that they can employ the poor. He doesn't seem to have a clue where wealth comes from and ignores most of the reasons poor people exist in the first place. He paints all for whom he has contempt with a very broad brush.

Now you are trying to convince us Jesus would even care about it. We shouldn't be projecting; we care so Jesus must care too?

I got an eyeful last night of various Jew-haters at the Chicago version of this drek. These folks are just plain sick.

When Jesus looks at this He may see greed and selfishness and envy. And you know what? Greed, selfishness and envy are equal opportunity sins. No one has a corner on that market.

"Woody Guthrie may be right. If Jesus came to Wall Street preaching the same message that he preached in Galilee… he might land himself on a cross again." Sure. What message might that be Shane?

Compassion for the poor doesn't equate to ingratitude for those who create jobs and fairly pay their employees.
Nor of course is greed only found among the rich. Materialism is no less a sin among the poor than it is with the rich.
"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God". As Christians we are aware that only individual redemption through God's Grace can transform the world. Not through 'politics' or war or street protests will God's Kingdom come.
And yet...
are we to stand idly by when injustice runs rampant? Are we to ignore the sufferings of our neighbors while we piously pray?
To simply say - "These are spoiled hippies" or "Jew haters", etc. based on what a biased media might say, or the actions of a few, is to dodge the issues.
We can debate the means, but promoting economic justice and peace are among the works of mercy we as Christians are to do.

"In speaking on the works of mercy as direct action, I have often quoted Father Jimmy Tompkins, who said that all work should be considered in the light of the Lord’s command to practice the works of mercy, as expressed in the 25th chapter of St. Matthew." -Dorothy Day

http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/daytext.cfm?TextID=848&SearchTerm=works%20of%20mercy

Of course we all come to this table with our own cherished views.

Shane's answer obviously accepts the premise of the OWS people: Greed has brought us all low, or some such thing. I would hope that, in addition to challenging greed and materialism, Jesus would also address envy, jealousy, and the like. Seems to me that the OWS are, at best, wanting to replace one sin with another.

Lots of folks are beginning to say, “Maybe God has a different dream for the world than the Wall Street dream.” I have seen no presence of God in these protestors!!

labor precedes capital. not the other way around.

Corporations do certain things well-like make iphones and bio-tech products, etc. etc.

But certain corporations who don't deal in real products but make money from money drove the economy into the ditch and have yet to pay any sort of price.

I can't see why anyone would have a problem with people having a problem with that.

with all the different ways money, stewardship and prosperity have been taught, and mis-taught from the Bible, I think John Wesley's concise teaching on the subject is best. Wesley taught that it's the believers responsibility to:

Make all you can - to do otherwise is to squander the talent God gave you.
Save all you can - Be happy with what you need for today, and be frugal and responsible with the resources God entrusts to your hands.
Give all you can - The poor are always with us, and God gave us the responsibility to meet their needs, and share from our abundance as a way to communicated his love.

An interesting side note: Wesley and his partners George Whitfield were significant influences on the Puritans and Quakers who founded our nation, who were so instrumental in our national identity defined by hard work which leads to financial prosperity.

I do not believe that Jesus would find fault with a free market economy or even the accumulation of wealth when faithfully managed. What I believe He would and does condemn is capitalism without conscience, and that's what we have in our country today.

Okay, so let me get this straight: when Clairborne sets up scripture against the current economic system, which is based upon the science of economics, he's an idiot, has no idea what he's talking about. He needs to go talk to economic experts. He's taking the text out of context.

Why is it that when it comes to economics, we have to read the Bible along with Adam Smith, but when it comes to other issues (like homosexuality or global warming), all you need is scripture?

"Does Jesus have anything to say about the "Occupy Wall St." protests?"

What is Shane's basis for thinking these protesters are orphans, widows, the handicapped, etc? His whole article is about what Jesus said about the poor. What is his connecting point between the two?

Is Shane confused or deeply deceived or both?

Is Luke 12 against having a savings plan for the future or about zero generousity? I think you can be both a good saver and a good giver, but Shane seems to be ignorant of this.

Is it possible to think that 95% of the protesters are deceived fools and 50% of wall street are thieving materialists? That's where I'm at. I don't have much love for either but there is no need to paint one side as those for whom Jesus would pour out his mercy..

Shane needs to wise up on his worldview and scripture. Jesus was sent to the cross because he claimed to be God, not because he helped the poor and confront low generousity.

Am I right about this?

elegance, you wrote the following:
"Mostly white college students who aren't attending class and don't need a part-time job to get through college because they either have tax-payer funded scholarships or Daddy is footing the bill. They must be the progeny of 1970's protesters who were the Marxists of their day. Many of those folks today are wealthy university professors with full medical, guaranteed jobs for life and fat pensions. They feed lavishly at the public trough while continually bashing folks who actually work hard and take risk with their own money to create wealth."

And Tim, you wrote the following:
"Is it possible to think that 95% of the protesters are deceived fools and 50% of wall street are thieving materialists? That's where I'm at."

Others have made similar comments on here, but yours are the ones that stand out the most for me. I'm curious--do either of you personally know enough of these protestors to be able to make such sweeping assertions? If you do, please tell us. It will give much more credibility to your statements. If you don't know these people, do you really think it is fair to portray them in the ways the two of you, as well as others, have? And what are you basing your generalizations on, if not personal knowledge? This is a serious question, and I hope to hear your response.

And in defense of the "rich"--my father was a small business owner who earned over $250,00 for most of my teenage years...and he was the most generous person I have ever known. We could've lived much better off than we did. So from the other perspective, it's not fair to broadly label all the wealthy as greedy and corrupt.

Why is it so easy for us to depersonalize those who see things, or live, differently than we do? Why do we forget that they are also human beings made in the image of God?

Q. 79. Which is the tenth commandment?

A. The tenth commandment is, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.

Q. 80. What is required in the tenth commandment?

A. The tenth commandment requireth full contentment with our own condition,[169] with a right and charitable frame of spirit toward our neighbor, and all that is his.

Q. 81. What is forbidden in the tenth commandment?

A. The tenth commandment forbiddeth all discontentment with our own estate, envying or grieving at the good of our neighbor, and all inordinate motions and affections to anything that is his.

- from Westminister Confession

Of course the Tenth Commandment applies to both the bankers, 'investment' firms and stock traders as well as to the OWS protesters.
Materialism drives capitalism, and excess is the general standard of success among capitalists. War profits are common and accepted as legitimate.
On the other hand, austerity and compassion, as well as anti-war sentiments are being strongly voiced by the OWS supporters and demonstrators.

"Thou shalt not steal".
"Thou shalt not kill".
"Love your neighbor as yourself."

The meme that OWS is composed of either smelly unemployed hippies or rich college students with iPads is brought to you by the same folks who told us there were WMDs in Iraq or that Obama is a muslim with no birth certificate.

I came from a poor background and worked my way up to a 7 figure net worth by age 45 and retired. I fully support OWS and actually went down last night to give support to the Occupy folks in my city.

We have made corporate profit the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, and defined the worth of a human as the amount of corporate profit they represent (e.g. health care). We have even defined corporations as people, with all of the benefits yet none of the accountability. We have government by corporation, of corporation and for corporations.

Oh come on Url, seriously?

You allow nonsense to stand but censor my calling them out on it?

Fine.

Elegance, Tim,

You two can talk a good mile about the bible, but come to knowledge about society and your limitations suddenly become painfully obvious.

My friends have gone to OWS protests, and I plan on attending one as well.

Ouch, I bet that's really got to get to the base of your ignorance...but herein is the issue.

We're protesting the absolute disparity of me, and my friends, you, I can't speak for, but for us, we're pissed that we pay in the 36% tax bracket, while Hedge-fund managers pay 15%, and still get bail-outs.

Granted, the pay difference is quite a bit different...my paltry 80k looks pretty thin compared to the top 25 hedge-fund managers who made over 22 billion dollars last year...and I don't begrudge their money earned, no, I find it offensive that I pay 36%, and they have a loop-hole called "retained interests" which is codified, through lobbying/bribing their favorite politician/political-group allowing them to collect their salary under the auspices of "capital gains."

But, since you two like to dismiss people you find "offensive" to your world-view as...oh, what was that elegance...marxists...and what was that Tim...deceived fools...yeah, I guess the tax disparity along with the redistribution of wealth to the 1% is just peachy fine with you two sheeple...me, I'm not to pleased with it.

The one percet can keep earning their godless money...but I do want them to pay on the same tax scale I do.

I am part of the 99%, and if you pay your taxes on the standard earned income scale, so are you.

Sheerahkahn, if you make $80K, you look like one of the 1% to me.

Mr. Claiborne  maybe right about Bible and Christian wealth. The question is would Christ use the sword of government to force Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, and nonbelievers to implement The Kingdom of Heaven on earth. The power to tax is the power to destroy. Thus, it is use of violence to take from others. If this was God's route why did he waste all these years when Rome was ready and available for his use. Rome was a very efficient and ruthless government. After the cross,  why appear to a rag tag group of disciples. Though through this group, Christ changed the world. Appear to Cesar and get on with forced efficient and effective forced redistribution of worldly goods.

No matter what anyone says, some people will just regurgitate the Republican party line and whatever else Fox, Rush and Glenn tell them to say. Anyone else with a more moderate view is a godless Liberal.

Two words: flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage. No loopholes. No exemptions. It's a simple idea. So simple that I fear it will never stand a chance of being passed... :(

Re: JG's comment above - so how is it acceptable that violence and coercion may be used by the state to protect the interests of the rich, while measures democratically decided on to share the wealth in society are impermissible?
Sharing profit in a democratic society is a moral imperative. Do not the workers share their labor?

This is Tolstoy, writing of long-ago Russia, but the principles still apply...

"We cannot pretend that we do not see the armed policeman who marches up and down beneath our windows to guarantee our security while we eat our luxurious dinner, or look at the new piece at the theater, or that we are unaware of the existence of the soldiers who will make their appearance with guns and cartridges directly our property is attacked.

We know very well that we are only allowed to go on eating our dinner, to finish seeing the new play, or to enjoy to the end the ball, the Christmas fete, the promenade, the races or, the hunt, thanks to the policeman's revolver or the soldier's rifle, which will shoot down the famished outcast who has been robbed of his share, and who looks round the corner with covetous eyes at our pleasures, ready to interrupt them instantly, were not the policeman and the soldier there prepared to run up at our first call for help."

-Leo Tolstoy

Re: Bill. My question is not about the actions of government. You may have very legitimate points on equity and fairness. But is Christ kingdom about equity and fairness? Does Christ call, the church his body, to use the power of government to mold society to our theological view of the moment. Jesus's interaction on earth appear not to use the power of government to mold the world but the power of changed lives. He did not hate the rich young ruler who left but was heart broken. He also did not send the disciples to take his stuff. Nowhere does he say let's use our power to force others to submit to our world view. No we love those who hate us. 

I am simply trying to understand the role the church is called. I understand refusing to commit evil ordered by a government. I am just not sure that Christ showed us how to use the power of government for furthering his kingdom. Constantine may have but not Christ.
 

JG,
Government should never mandate a religion, or interfere with religious practice. But it can promote the general welfare and safeguard the rights of the poor and vulnerable - social justice.
If not that, why have a government?

We can allow, through our inaction, government to serve the rich and powerful, or we can work non-violently for equity and democracy.
I see possible pitfalls in that work, but not a basic error.

If we as Christians do not become involved in the struggle for social justice, then other, more 'self-interested' parties may seize that initiative.
The place for Christians is on the street and in the world, as well as in church.

Excellent commentary!!!

Jesus PAID taxes and spoke MORE about caring for the poor and loving your neighbor than any other issues of his day.

Alas, looking at most of the comments here, is proof positive, that in the last days people will call good evil and evil good.

"Woe to those who call EVIL good and GOOD evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." -- Isaiah 5:20 (NIV)

Sheer

"We're protesting the absolute disparity of me, and my friends, you, I can't speak for, but for us, we're pissed that we pay in the 36% tax bracket, while Hedge-fund managers pay 15%, and still get bail-outs."

Am I ignorant about this comment. You are concerned about your tax rate compared to Wall street folks. That is a government problem, not a wall street induced problem. You should be with the TEA folks who are concerned specifically with being taxed too much already b y the government. The OWS folks don't pay much taxes for the most part, they just want a bigger hand out or larger union control. They are not concerned with taxes, you are.

How is earning a lot of money "godless"?

If you and the rest of the 99% are concerned with over taxation for yourself, then you are claiming something contrary to the OWS fools claiming to be the 99%. They and Obama want you to pay more taxes.

I think it would be a good idea for you to visit an OWS event. I can see from ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX, it's an in coherent waste of time.

You scoffed at my comments about the Biblical accuracy of Shane's "devotion" which is really corruption.

Are the lamed, orphans, widows, etc of Jesus context the same as the OWS folks or are there huge physical, financial, motivational, and spiritual aspirational differences?

Maybe I should visit an OWS event and ask some folks there what they think of the government and society encouraged direct slaughter of millions of helpless children in the womb who are called blobs. Do you think I would find compassion among them for this social injustice?

"Christian groups have drawn up plans to protect (Occupy London) protesters by forming a ring of prayer around the camp outside St Paul's Cathedral, should an attempt be made to forcibly remove them."

"As Christians, we stand alongside people of all religions who are resisting economic injustice with active nonviolence. The global economic system perpetuates the wealth of the few at the expense of the many. It is based on idolatrous subservience to markets. We cannot worship both God and money."

Shane,
Thank you for this commentary. It has so much relevance, not just from the viewpoint of needed systematic change, but more importantly how we live our own lives. May comfort and security never lead us to abandon the global poor, and thus deny Christ who died for us!

"Sheerahkahn, if you make $80K, you look like one of the 1% to me."

I do understand, alison, which is why I have limited my outrage to the disparity that favors the wealthy.

And, being that I'm a self-reflective cynical realist, which I think a few here might agree with that assessment of myself, I also have a clear understanding that my position in this may look more akin to an argument between two pigs in a sty flinging poop at one another over who gets to the slop trough first.
The irony of my gripe is not lost on me.

"Do you think I would find compassion among them for this social injustice?"

If you wished to tie the two together, why not?

If abortions are your casus belli to act, then at least have the courage of your convictions and act...as for compassion...no idea...I suspect though, considering the "drum circles" (I have no idea what that is about) and "shamans" (really, someone burning sage is cool? Humanity.../sigh) that you would find the world quite opposed to your thinking. Something to consider when addressing this issue...the subject, abortion, and the world, whom has a notorious history of not giving a damn about human life. But you knew that already.

Me, I have no illusions about my gripe...and thus, have limited my gripe to the specific inequality of taxation...which, also, thankfully, prevents me from going off on tangents that have loose, perhaps, oblique associations with my initial angst, but would distract from my raison d'etere.

As for abortions, me thinks you would have more success on one on ones than you would in a one vs the crowd..but you'll never know the outcome till you try.

Jobbby
"We have made corporate profit the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, and defined the worth of a human as the amount of corporate profit they represent (e.g. health care)."

I would say this is a sad exaggeration. While corporations, whether 5 employees to 50,000, whether stock holders or not, they are the ONLY SOURCE of providing money to provide social services whether defense, welfare, or safety to the people. If corporations do not make good profit, there is NO tax money from it or it's employees or it's stock holders to pay for government or even unions. Both government and unions are systems that suck money from corporations, their stock holders and employees. It's all very simple, unless you allow yourself to be persuaded to think all corporations are evil and all government and unions are good. Yes there are corporations that have done great evil, but that does not make the concept itself evil. This is true everywhere in the world. If I am wrong about this, let me know.

"We have even defined corporations as people..."
Do you know any corporations that are some other entity such as machine or raw material?

"...with all of the benefits yet none of the accountability."
Oh yes, they have accountability. The IRS is all over them. They have far more accountability than unions and the government.

"We have government by corporation, of corporation and for corporations."

Sadly corporations as an entity pay too big a part in government. The same can be said for both private and public sector unions, NBC, ABC, CBS, etc, and government controlled education. How do you perceive these other entities warping government by deceiving and buying influence?

So irritatingly naive. I own a small corporation and can assure you I pay a good portion of my personal and corporate taxes to Uncle. And like other small biz owners, I employ a few people. This nonsense about the wealth of a few somehow precluding others from their share reminds me of my youthful progressive days, when I was about "getting the man." Later in life you grow up and realize you are responsible for providing for a family, paying your bills, and contributing to society. You can bellyache all you want about "economic injustice." But it doesn't mean squat. Take up the tools of your trade, go to work, be a contributing member of society. I think that's as biblical as any of this redistributionist folly. And the kicker is, people who run this kind of ministry are the first to ask me for money. Happy to do it, love to do it. But the thing is, being prosperous is not a sin. Loving money over people is.

" own a small corporation and can assure you I pay a good portion of my personal and corporate taxes to Uncle."

Okay, as a small business owner, and one who pays both personal (I assume income tax on your wages that you have assigned yourself), and corporate taxes, how do you feel about GE not paying any US taxes?

"Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion."

Taken from a Forbes article...also, in the article...

"As a result, figures tax economist Martin Sullivan, companies are keeping some $28 billion a year out of the clutches of the U.S. Treasury by engaging in so-called transfer pricing arrangements...",

So, as a small Business owner, and one that pays your taxes, how does it feel to know that not only did GE not pay taxes, the Government paid GE 1.1 billion dollars of yours, and my tax dollars to that corporation?

"I think that's as biblical as any of this redistributionist folly."

Oh, and I do agree with you, this "redistributionist folly' of taking from Joe Average and giving it to Joe Billionaire is a huge mistake.

If we must share their debt(Bailouts!), let us also share in their profits, or no self-serving corporation should be too big to fail. If they want to make high risk investments and loose, let them fall on their face. I shall not covet what they have, but when they raise gas prices and claim quarterly record profits I feel my hard earn money coveted. There is a world economic crisis because somebody is not cycling the money back into the economy. You want a capitalist friendly environment invest some money to spend.

Interestingly enough, in Luke 12, Jesus's warning against greed was occasioned by the younger brother asking Jesus to intervene and demand his older brother share the wealth that accrued to him by the ancient right of primogeniture. What would Jesus say to the OWS crowd? "who appointed Me an arbiter between you and Wall Street? Enough with your greed and envy!"

"What would Jesus say to the OWS crowd? "who appointed Me an arbiter between you and Wall Street? Enough with your greed and envy!""

So when the widow asks for justice, and the justice isn't specific because it could be financial, could be civil, it is not detailed.
All we know is she asked for justice, and what you are saying is this...the widow is being greedy.

Is that really what you are saying to the people on OWS when they ask for justice?

These are not grass-root regular folk out of a job. Interviews show many are students playing hookey from class,some living with mom and dad, drug users and drug deals caught red-handed in the "camp," public sex and indecency, no respect of authority, police--looked more like Sodom & Gomorrah. Some finally admitted they were being paid or sponsered by unions and left-wing radical organizations. When the organizer of this debacle was asked on camera about his past criminal activities, he RAN from the camera shouting INTERVIEW OVER! Hard to believe this is trying to be presented as creditable. The author should go to journalism school, but, PLEASE, first go to Bible college and take at least just ONE course in Bible hermenutics!!!

"If we go down this path of The Occupy Wall folks..we risk a violation of this commandment of our GOD. We should not covet...the wealth redistribution mindset is a covetousness mindset..."

Agreed, so how do we get the wealthy who have more than they could ever want to be satisfied with what they have, and keep their money grubbing hands off of the 99% money?

Isn't Wall St. the epitome of the American dream?
To a loser's way of thinking "the rich are motivated by greed." (very judgmental)
To a winner's way of thinking "the rich are motivated by ambition."
Isn't it easier to change our way of thinking than labeling a persons dreams, goals and ambition?
When have we started calling ambition greed?
If it were not for the ambition of a few we would still be a third world country.
If you were rich, do you think that all the hard work and chances you took were motivated by greed or ambition? (not what others think, what YOU THINK)
If you are looking for a job, who is going to hire you? The poor?

OK two things...Why start with a Karl Barth quote??? Or did sooo much got lost in the translation...2nd There is more in the Bible after the Gospels

The Cross WAS the goal, not some bad ending Jesus would avoid if He could do it all over again.

"If you are looking for a job, who is going to hire you? The poor?"

OK hymnsinger, and if you need work done, who are you going to call - the rich?
The workers use the resources God has provided to create tangibles, things we need...you might call it 'wealth'.
Owners skim profits off the top, sharing just a portion.
Owners can be easily replaced by hired managers.
How do you replace the workers?

Oh, the owners should be replaced by hired managers? Most businesses are small businesses, who do you think should own them, the government? Who are you to make such a statement. The Bible never talks about the government giving cradle to grave food, clothing, housing, and free medical care simply because people "need" it. It talks a lot about people working for what they have and being satisfied with what they have. I've never seen so much greed. envy and coveting in my life, and it's on the workers side. The "rich bankers" will have to answer to God, as will all of us. It is between them and God, sorry. If my husband makes more money than you, what concern is it of yours? You have no right to our money. He has a masters in electrical engineering, he has 15 patents, and he works 12 hours a day, at the very minimum, and that's for about the last 30 years or so. Perhaps he earns less than you, but why would anyone simply be entitled to your money? Giving and helping others is something that is to be done privately, and out of one's own conscience, not forced by the government. The Bible does not say that anywhere. In fact,the Bible says if one does not work, they should not eat. Adam was given work to do in the garden of Eden, before there was any sin. Work is not a 4 letter word.

They put out lots of job applications at several of these sites, and they were tossed in the garbage. Here is what the Bible says in 2Thess 3: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame."

These protesters are not following what the Bible says in any way, and are in fact, sinning in many ways.

Just as the Bible talks about helping the poor widow, it also says that those who do not work should not eat. From Mark 7: "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Quote about the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other is usually atributed to John Stott. Perhaps Karl Barth said it first - I don't know. Perhaps it does not matter - but if so why do we feel the need to attribute a good principle? It is a good principle whoever first said it.
As Shane Claiborne said 'I believe we have to read the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other.'!!

Jesus tells about the 2 comandments: Love God, Love your Neighbor. On these hang all of scripture.

Let me just ask the writer of the article - Do you believe that the protesters everywhere are bringing joy, glory, to God? Do you think that they are bringing joy, and good faith acts to make their neighbors happy?

Please pray to the Father of All Truth and wait patiently for His kind quiet guidance in your next attempt at writing for masses.

Kim, may God bless you and your husband.
And you are right, we all must answer to God.
Work is an honorable thing, I'm a worker and I pray often that I may do a good job for my employer, and that he and his family may prosper.
I don't think the workers 'should' take over his shop, but I believe they 'could'. There are people who think these owners are the indispensable 'creators' of wealth and jobs and those who think that way sometimes need to be reminded the bosses and owners are not as necessary as they consider themselves.
In fact it is the workers who 'add value' to the raw materials supplied by the real creator of all things.
It's good when we all can see from another perspective, put 'the shoe on the foot' so to speak.

And Ivan, may I ask you if the owners, bankers and venture capitalists lining their pocket with millions of dollars taken from workers and the poor are 'bringing joy, glory to God"?
We are all sinners of course, and greed and covetousness are not limited to the rich. Certainly not!
But neither are the rich the 'creators' of wealth and they certainly may be called to account.
God does not favor one economic system over the other, but yes, he does call for us to love one another.

Lot of stuff on here I would've loved to respond to. Unfortunately, I'm coming back to the conversation a little too late, I fear. Just as well, I suppose...

I guess the only thing I can say at this point is that I am fascinated by how easily most of us--on both sides of the issue--use Scripture to legitimize our own personal political or economic biases!

Oh, and steve w., thank you for recognizing that JG's response to what he mistakenly thought was MY post, was actually meant for you!

"The Bible never talks about the government giving cradle to grave food, clothing, housing, and free medical care simply because people "need" it."

nor does the bible protect the business owner, the rich man, from stripping the poor man of all his wealth...

nor does the bible bless the rich man for coveting the poor mans meager means.

nor does G-d in his holiness feel compelled to bless the evil that the rich visit upon the poor by taking all for themselves, and then telling the poor, "go and fend for yourselves." (read: get a job!)

In fact, he gets a little bent out of shape with that mindset...especially with the rich man who accumulated so much, that he decided to build more silo's to store his wealth in...oh yeah, what was it that G-d said to him?

Oh yeah..."You fool for this very night I demand your life!"

Thats right Kim, there is something you should know about that sword of G-d you like to talking about... it swings both ways.

sheer, and as usual, you ignore the parts of the Bible you don't like, such as telling the individual to work for their own keep, don't look to the government. Read Genesis 47:13-27 It tells how pharoah stored up great grain for times of famine, and how the people first gave all their money for the grain so they could eat. Then the famine wasn't over and they had to sell their cattle and their sheep, and then the famine still was not over, and they had nothing to sell but their lands and their bodies. So their surrended their homes, their land and their bodies so that they could eat. Turning to the government instead of to God for our needs only makes us slaves to our government. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the government should supply us with our needs. It says that we should work and support ourselves and help those unable to work. It never implies anywhere that the government should be doing this for us. You want to force an unbiblical solution, and it won't work and it shows your lack of faith. The farmers in the state of Washington cannot get enough workers to take the apples off their trees and the same is true in other states. There are way too many people (about 50%) who are on the collecting end of the government, and 50% paying for it all. God does not use your solution sheer.

Kim,
Why does your husband have patents? Doesn't he trust other business people to pay him for his efforts when they profit from his ideas? Of course he doesn't, so he uses the government to take money they earn from their labor to pay for his labor.
That is what the protests are about. The top 1% are earning more and more for their labor while the bottom 99% are earning less and less. So the protesters are looking to government help them earn I a higher percentage of the profit made from their labor. Just like your husband.

Nobody is asking for money without labor. They are looking for more money from their labor.

Why are there not enough apple pickets? Probably because the wage is too low to make the work worthwhile. Would your hush
Band have worked so hard for his masters and his patents if the financial reward was too small?

The wealthy use the government to increase their earnings, everyone else should be able to as well.

Actually, engineers must sign contracts when they are hired with their companies that anything they design does go to the company that is paying their salary. So, he received a plaque and $250 and was told "well done". It really wouldn't work any other way, or if someone was in the auto industry for example, the guy who designed the clock would be making money for each car sold with that clock, and the guy who designed the odometer would be paid for his odometer design with each car sale, it obviously doesn't work that way.

If he comes up with an idea that is outside his line of work on his own time, and he builds it or has it built, he can patent it and keep the money himself. This hasn't happened because he's working 12-14 hours a day for his company. We are thankful for his salary and our benefits, and as a sidenote, our medical insurance, which once was excellent, is doing downhill in anticipation of obamacare. Companies will be fined something like 2 thousand a year if they don't supply insurance for the employees, so companies will be dropping medical insurance as fast as they can. We don't complain about what we don't get, we're thankful for what we have. If my husband thought he could do better somewhere else, there is always the law of supply and demand, which works quite well. But we feel blessed as it is and feel that his salary is fair, etc.

Michael
"The wealthy use the government to increase their earnings, everyone else should be able to as well."

No neither should be using the government for this. This is what is normally called CORRUPTION. The government should be a guard against crony capitalism, not enhancing it.

"That is what the protests are about."
No this is not what the protesters are about. There is not one coherent message of any substance coming from them. Just read their signs. Many, even here are projecting onto the protesters what they want them to be saying when there really are not saying that at all.

Even Shane the author is projecting onto the demonstrators that they are the same is the "poor" Jesus was talking about. What a scam that comparison is. We see their virtue and humility towards God increasing every day - right?

Michael, what you are describing is greed and envy and coveting, all sins. Like I said, 50% of the population is receiving government money, and 50% are paying them. I would think that if people are so poor and out of work that they would be willing to work for the wages, which are above the federal minimum wage in our state. But they are probably the ones picketing since my husband and the other workers are there working. My husband doesn't even take sick days off, and evidently you and the others have all the time in the world.

Paul wrote Romans when Nero was in power, and he told them to obey the authorities. It would apply to the so-called 1% as well. They will answer to God, they don't need to answer to you. In Peter, it says to submit yourselves to every human institution. There is nothing biblically supporting these protests, many of which are turning violent.

In Romans 13 it says: “Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor ” (Romans 13:1–7).

Peter wrote this: “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king” (1 Peter 2:13–17).

The only time that Scripture says it's ok to disobey civil authority is when the government tries to compel or command people to do evil, such as killing all the baby boys. Christians can act nonviolently within the law to change a government that permits evil. (By God's definition, not man's). And of course Christians can work within the law to install new government leaders.

Thanks for the reply.
So it looks to me that your husband has chosen a good steady salary working for others who profit more from his labor and ideas over the greater risk/reward of creating his own company. And that you guys are satisfied in the share of the companies profit that goes to you in the form of wages and benefits. That's great.

But if you look at trends across this nation you will see that the owners of companies like your husbands are earning more and more of the profit while workers like your husband are earning less and less. And that benefits like healthcare and pensions are disappearing.

That is what the protests are about. We are still the richest nation on the planet, but 99% of us are getting less and leads for our labor while1% are getting more and more.(according to those who pro port to know).

What should the life of our poorest paid laborer look like? How much do we value the labor of the apple picker, the janitor and the garbage collector? How much do we value the teachers, policeman, the engineers,etc. The protectors believe that our economy values them too little and values the top 1% too much. I agree and I think, from my understanding of the Bible, God does as well

Tim
Our economy is governed by laws. The government creates laws. That is how society works. Individuals and companies seek to use laws to increase the yield of their labor. If I create and sell something with out filing a patent anybody can steal my idea, make it cheaper and put me out of business.
This is not corruption, it is society. The alternative is anarchy.

Wealthy individuals and corporations buying politicians to make laws in their favor is something I hate. But it is also legal in many ways in our country. One answer is for people to join together to protest and try to influence change.

That is what many of the protesters are doing, from what I can see.

Michael, it's called GREED and COVETING. They are sins. I showed you Bible verses from Romans and Peter that show it's wrong. There has also been violence and anti-semitism in several cities, and if you haven't read about it, please google it. I'm not replying anymore, you're trying to say that sinning is fine, and it is not. Life will never be "fair" until Jesus is ruling.

"sheer,...[a weak ad-hominem followed by a non-sequitor]...sheer."

uh-boy...really?

This is the best you can come up with...a non-sequitor?
Where do I mention government?
Where do I mention handouts?
Where did you get the basis of your "government handout" diatribe from in my post?
.../facepalm...
Look, if you can't be bothered with reading what I actually wrote, why bother responding in the first place?

I am for the worker and the 99%, but I refuse to cast all blame on the other side.

But here is something we must remember when we condemn one or another group of people of the sins of greed and covetousness.

"...the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts.
- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

If we truly loved one another as we are told to do by Christ himself, there would be no theft or violence by either the wealthy few or the dispossessed. In fact, there would be no dispossessed.

It seems that some of the criticisms made about OWS here originate not from the tenets of our Christian faith but from other sources that have been so mingled with our faith that we can no longer distinguish them. And that is the problem here because it causes us to say, in the name of Jesus, what somebody else said.

Other criticisms have been made by people who lack first hand exposure and thus they rely on possibly biased reporting of others.

This is not to say that those in OWS are above all criticism, they are not. But their biggest challenge to us is about sharing. The sharing they promote goes beyond the sharing of wealth, it also includes the sharing of power.

So before criticizing read their Declaration of the Occupation of New York. Then do your best to find fault and merit.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/

Is the "Occupy Wall Street" protest movement filled with born again believers in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord? No. Are Wall Street Billionaires or Hollywood Billionaires born again believers in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord? No. They are all cut from the same piece of sinful cloth. How can one group exact justice from the other group when neither group knows what Biblical justice is? Even the believers blogging on this site seem confused as to what Biblical justice is. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Seems to me that our brother is picking convenient scripture for his cause. How would the teaching about the rich young ruler stand over against the parable in Matthew 25:14-30. The rich land owner who entrusted property to his servants rewarded the ones who took what was given to them and invested it to make more. The land owner criticized the one servant who hoarded what he had been given, hid it to protect it, and then had no investment to show. Seems to me that there is a strong teaching here about the value of investments. I would propose the more we invest, the more we make, the more we have, allows us to give more to others. The rich companies create the jobs for others so that they, too, may invest and grow. Why is that so wrong?

I just don't see how it's greedy to say that I should be compensated fairly for the production achieved through my labor, but it's not greed for the owner of my company to minimize my portion to maximize his compensation for my labor.

The guys on Wall Street aren't even producing anything. They're speculating on commodities, trading currencies, and essentially moving money back and forth while taking a cut every time. Is it a valuable service? Yes. Is it 40% of gross domestic corporate profits valuable? No.

Financial markets don't add to to the gross domestic product, they just siphon off profits from productive businesses.

And again, I don't see how it's greedy to declare the government is controlled by moneyed interests and doesn't respond to the demands of the majority of citizens, but it's not greedy to oppose workers joining together to negotiate compensation, benefits and working conditions with business.

Money is a hot button topic for everyone. Just take a look at how many people posted comments on this article. It seems to me that the amount of comments posted on simply proves Claiborne's point.

Might the intensity of this conversation about Wall Street reveal our true heart's condition in regards to the church's love of money?

I love his quote "Maybe God’s dream is for us to live simply so that others may simply live."

I don't understand why people so strongly disagree with Claiborne other than because of their investments in Wall Street. He is quoting Jesus' teachings. Jesus has a lot to say about money, especially about what to do with it, and I think that much of what Jesus says about money is being ignored by most American Christians today.

Are our blessings a gift from God to be kept for ourselves, or are our blessings a gift from God, intended to be given back to God to advance His Kingdom?

We need to stop looking at the biblical principals of money through the lens of Wall Street and begin looking at Wall Street's principals of money through the lens of scripture.

I suggest we stop getting our answers about money from Wall Street and the American Dream and instead, turn to the gospels and see what Jesus says about money.

I think that financial well-being an spirituality can go hand-in-hand, but it's a balancing act. Money does not define you. You can't let it consume you either. It's not evil, but has the potential to turn a man to evil.

There is some kind of paradigm where people tend to think making money is inherently evil in nature. But it's not. Consider guys like Dave Ramsey who have mastered the art of making money and share it with others to help every one prosper. Correcting other people's attitudes with money should be done in a Christ-like way though, not with any negativity.