Just my observation from the street is this: Atheism is the new cool.

Even though in casual chats the real sentiment is agnostic, the verbal banter is atheism, a questioning of suppositions and issues of faith which is where I think the church has failed miserably.
For a lot of the youth faith is understandable but the education level has reached a point where they do not see the connection between faith and life.
Youth want a grasp, a hand hold, a rock from which they can say, "this, this right here is what I know to be true."
And what is happening is that they are being told "do as I say, but not as I do."

Funny thing about kids...parents can lie to their friends with their actions and words, but the children know the truth.
Christianity in America is a Sunday Religious fest, and what children want is something tangible, something meaningful, something real that they can wrap their lives around...Christanity, as has been presented by their parents, and reinforced by the church is not it.

Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion on my part since I have completely totally disobeyed G-d in this one regard in my life...you pastors might want to review the way you believe one should follow G-d through his son Y'shua.

I pray that once you review that thought you might come up with a different viewpoint about who we are as human beings, and who Y'shua really is in relation to us...because I can tell you, the kids, they haven't a clue and they know one thing very well...their Churches don't have a clue either.

The "stat" that post-high school Christians leave the church and never return is one of the worst stats bring exploited in the culture today.

We can't know what is actually happening and the reality is much of the data behind the stat largely comes from the reality that their attendance patterns aren't what former generations practiced.

Working with 20somethings in a metro area mega church shows a lot of the trends. The 20somethings that stay in, or return, to "regular" church attendance do so a) at sporadic intervals, b) consider 1 - 2 times attendance a month consistent, and c) almost exclusively prefer front-door (attractional) progressive worship mega churches that aren't good gauges of actual attendance.

We have to stop trying to impute quantitative measures on a qualitative problem.

There is a downward trend in the rising generation, largely to do with rampant promiscuity and party lifestyles. Yet there is hope and there is a lot of unfocused passion, spiritually, in the younger generation. Some of the angst is caused by the overly programmatic model of "successful" youth ministries...another is parents failing to be spiritual leaders.

The trouble with agnostic youth is that you can't provide any proof for them, which is what they are usually seeking. Even if you can come up with a bullet-proof proof of there being a deity, there doesn't seem to be anyway to prove then that that deity is the Christian (or Sikh or whatever) deity. Appeals to emotion when the person is seeking intellectual information is almost certain to be ignored, after all, advertisers have been using people's emotions for a very long time and this generation is on to that trick.

Cermak, there are lots of good books out there, they are available in any Christian book store or online, in the apologetics section. Josh McDowell has some good books, as do many other authors. Only the Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, archeology, and history to back it up. No other so-called "holy" book has this evidence. It doesn't have to be based on blind faith.

Jesus becoming incarnate fulfilled over 100 prophecies that were written hundreds or even a thousand years before. 500 years before His birth, it is written in Micah that a Savior would be born in Bethlehem. It was prophecied that He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and that the soldiers would gamble over His clothes, his death by crucifixion was prophecied in Psalms, hundreds of years before there was a form of death by crucifixion. Daniel predicted to the day when Jesus would ride through Jerusalem on a donkey. The Bible talks about great cities that would go to ruins, and these were fulfilled. One prediction that has yet to be passed, is that Damascus, Syria will be put in ruins. Right now, we see that there is a lot of upheavel in Syria, and elsewhere throughout the middle east. Many of us are watching to see if Damascus does go to ruins one of these days. I know that this prophecy will be fulfilled at some time, because all of the other prophecies have been fulfilled except for those in the future. Jesus scolded the Pharasees and others because they could not see that He was the Messiah prophecied about in their Scriptures. Please check out some of these books, they help bolster your faith and better enable you to be able to give a reason for your belief.

Actually, there is not a lot of evidence that does not circle right back to the Bible. In other words, if you presuppose that all of the Bible is true, you can find proof for it by referring back to that book. Most of the books on apologetics you can get at Christian bookstores are woefully weak and suited only to the task of keeping those who have not yet doubted in the faith.

Most serious Biblical scholars would acknowledge that the reason the author of Luke (et al) put an Infancy Narrative together was to fulfill a prophecy. In other words, it didn't actually happen that way, it was written with the agenda of making sure that the prophecies were fulfilled. Prophecies are fulfilled that way in other faiths as well. Christianity is not unique in this respect.

Archaelogical evidence indicates that an ancient civilization of Israelites existed. I doubt that anyone doubts that. Archaeology doesn't seem to have found any proof that the ancient Israelites were ever slaves of the Egyptians on a mass scale or that the deity they claimed was real. After all, most tribes at the time had a tribal deity of one form or another.

cermak, it is not as though the Bible was written all at once. It has 66 books written over a period of 2000 years. Both Jesus and Paul quoted from, and used OT Scripture to prove and defend His existence, and the fact that He is God Incarnate. Like I said, it was written 500 years previous to His birth that He would be born in Bethlehem (just one example out of over 100). Many people, upon reading the evidence of the Scriptures, came from being atheists to believers by the weight of the evidence in the Scriptures themselves. Just one example is "Who Moved the Stone", and there are many others. Josephus wrote long ago about some of the events in the Bible. If you read Daniel, he wrote about governments in the future that would take over Babylon. God gave him the prophecy that the Roman empire and Persia for instance, would one day take over Babylon. Have you read Daniel and how God gave him the interpretation of the king's dream? Daniel was not even told what the dream was. Certainly, you have the right to reject the evidence, but archeologists know that the Scripture was written over a period of time, as the Hebrew language changed over time, and they can tell what time periods certain books were written in. I have often heard on the radio, archeologists and historians who use the Bible for factual knowledge about the various kingdoms in the past, and they are not even Christians, but they use the Bible for it's history. In the end, it's up to you to accept or reject it, but like I said, no other "holy" book comes close to the Bible for its fulfilled prophecies, history, and archeology.

Of course the Scriptures were written over time. That's why I stated that some of the authors of the Gospels, both canonical and non-canonical, write intentionally to satisfy prophetic requirements. Jesus and Paul were both supposed to be Jews so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they quoted from the Tanakh, it being their holy book.

As for prophecies, anyone could have predicted in the 1800s that the Ottoman Empire would fall. And they would have been right as it finally collapsed as as result of WWI. Why could this prophecy be made? Because it was called the Dying Man of Europe. Grown too large and inept to manage itself. This is one trick to successful prophecy, know enough about your subject to make an educated guess. Another is to only have recorded the successful prophecies. People in time forget the failures and you look like a prophet (crazy uncle approach) And still another is to write the prophecy in a vague enough way that people can recognize it in various events (I call this the Nostradomas approach).

People don't deny that the Israelites existed and that they wrote their Scriptures. People don't deny that the author of Joshua thought that the Almighty really did tell the Israelites to slaughter everyone of their enemies. So how is the archaeological record is going to be helpful, here.

I think the comment about isolationism is a major and significant issue. I went through youth group in the first half of the 2000's in a moderately large church (~600 weekly attendance on a Sunday morning). Our youth program emphasized mentoring with older leaders and getting in touch with the seniors in our congregation. As I look back now, the kids who were stalwart youth group attenders are still attending church today, while the kids who were on the periphery and weren't developing those intergenerational relationships are much more likely to be "checked out" of church. The church where I am ministering now has a similar emphasis on intergenerationality. But these churches, unlike the big megachurches (over 2000 weekly attendance, roughly speaking), don't really have the resource to segregate their youth so thoroughly. Just running the programs required the contributions of not-so-young people. Only a big church can target and run its ministries within such narrow demographic slices, and thus segregate them.

As I look back now, the kids who were stalwart youth group attenders are still attending church today, while the kids who were on the periphery and weren't developing those intergenerational relationships are much more likely to be "checked out" of church.

This is a great point and needs to be emphasized. Too often the college students who check out of church and never return were, for all purposes, never there to begin with. Reminds me of a time when a frantic (and angry) parents called me up after their college daughter got pregnant at school. They were wearing me out about how we never provided for her. Finally, they stopped talking and I mentioned that for the entire time their daughter was in middle and high school she only attend our main service and never any of our student programs. I then encouraged them to come by and check our membership database and see if they could find any attendance...for any of them. They knew they couldn't.

Parents, not youth ministries, are the primary influencer on a child and the vital connection for them spiritually.

As one who is fast chasing 70yo in 2012...and as one who was a youth pastor in the "radical" days in the 60s and early 70s in Southern California...and as one who is mentoring (in person and via Skype on four continents) a number of remarkable 20 and 30 something men and women in leadership in the marketplace and in the ministry-place...and as one who has a lingering frustration that too many in my own generation are not stepping up to the plate often enough to be eldering well, calling out and up and blessing and releasing the new generation of leaders mentioned in this exceptional article...I am thoroughly intrigued with what Skye has put forth.

Just a few moments ago, concluding a mentoring appointment with a seminary student I mentor, this good man is hungry to integrate the Bible into real time real life way beyond the excellent academic exercises his school puts him through. He's newly married...cares deeply for the homeless...is pondering that maybe he needs to be a Christ-following businessman rather than a preacher...and loves doing groups with late teen and early 20s guys. I applaud all of that for him.

Heaven forbid (and that is a prayer...) that we should expect things to always be the same generation after generation, as society and our world changes, often over night. I take deep joy in encouraging the differences.

The "kids" in my former youth groups are now in their 50s...and wildly, their kids, as they are falling in love, are asking me to do their pre-marital (which now also involved post-wedding time...) counseling and some weddings because of how their families have grown up and out.

Yesterday I heard some high school kids wondering about why the flags were at half mast. One of them stated that they thought it was some form of protest against the Occupy movement...really. Another said someone must have died...nice guess. A third one quietly spoke to the moment, "I think something happened way back in history kind of like 9/11 and so we're celebrating that."

This olde man quietly spoke up and commended them on their curiosity and being courageous enough to suggest some answers. I asked them if they knew anyone who was alive 70 years ago...several had grandparents still living...so I encouraged them to call them tonight and ask them what happened...for it was, for that era, almost like 9/11. They looked at me a little weird...but said they would do that.

One of them, intriguingly, followed me outside. He said, giving me more information than I ever asked for or expected, "I don't have any grandparents...I don't even have a Dad...and I don't know anybody your age to ask...so would mind letting me know what happened?" The next 10 minutes were all his...I like curious people of any age.

He look straight into my eyes and took in my quick explanation of the Pacific part of World War II...and told him about when my wife and I had, years back, stood over that sunken wreck in the harbor, where the oil is still...as in STILL...leaking from those hulls. He whispered a quiet, "Wow......." and then asked, "Do you live around here?"

I told him no, but I'm in his town about once a week. His next question? "Can I call you some time with other questions?...I didn't know much about what you just told me." He has my card, and has already texted me this AM, "Mr. Roberts, I have another question...when could I call you today? I'm in class from....." and he mentioned the times.

I expect a call late this afternoon. And even if it doesn't take place something important took place between that high school student and me. He was definitely a part of my early morning Advent prayers as this day began.

All this to say...we need each other across the generations...while allowing the generations to be who/what they are. Skye...keep this conversation stirred up.

I almost apologize for taking up too much space here. But hey...give an olde man a break...at least for the moment. :-)

"Too often the college students who check out of church and never return were, for all purposes, never there to begin with."

have you ever asked them why?

I have asked the ones who were at my church, interesting answers, but I'm curious if you found out why the ones at your church left?

isolationism is the logical result of a highly individualized private faith. This was championed again in the mid 20th c. and is deeply embedded in evangelicalism.

it doesn't matter that "justice" and "activism" have been re-invigorated within evangelicalism. It's been pushed without essentially deconstructing the individualist construction of faith that evangelicals still cling to so deeply.

Cermak, you state, "Most serious Biblical scholars would acknowledge that the reason the author of Luke (et al) put an Infancy Narrative together was to fulfill a prophecy." Do you have any evidence for this beyond anecdotalexperiences in your own life? Or do you mean to say that any scholar who thinks differently is not a serious Biblical scholar? Your idea sounds much more like people with hindsight, trying to explain away something with little to prove what they are saying. And little to do with how people actually behave in real life.

Mark E.

By serious scholars I mean those who use literary and historical methods of inquiry to try to understand what the message would have been to contemporary audiences.

Many people refer to themselves as Bible studiers or Bible scholars who have only read the text in reference to modern times. That's why I added the use of the word serious.

Cermak, I get what you mean by scholars in general, but I'm still wondering where you get the idea that most "serious" scholars believe that the birth narrative of Christ was made up so that it would seem that prophecy was fulfilled, rather than it being a historical event. Claiming that a writer fabricated a story is a serious claim that needs both credible and considerable evidence, not just conjecture or the wish to explain away what is claimed. Using the word most implies that the majority of scholars believe this theory to be true, which is certainly not my experience.

Most of the scholarly commentary I have read has pointed out the conflicts between the different stories, the conflict of the timing (with regard to the named rulers), the fact that infancy narratives were a common literary form at the time, and the fact that there are obvious OT NT parallels such as Joseph dreaming dreams (in both), Mary vs. Miriam to indicate a connection to Moses, etc.

Cermak, It would appear to me that you are saying that the Emerging Church is basically a group of 'scholars' who are also unbelievers and thus the Bible is just another book on the shelf to be read for amusement; point which has often been made by others.

I'm pretty sure the Emerging Church would not accept me. My studies in Scripture were in a Jesuit University and my continuing education has been more spent in the school of Spong and Cupitt than emerging church theologians.

Wes,

On many levels, thank you very much for your post. It was a delight and deeply moving to read

Steve