"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Shakespeare

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites (greek for actor), for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

Y'shua, Matthew 6:5

I neither praise Mr. Tebow, nor do I criticize him...he has gotten exactly what he wanted...being known a christian figure on the stage of life.
Other than that observation of mine, I have no opinion one way or the other.

For me, I can't really answer the question- because I believe the Matthew 6 passage primarily addresses intent of the heart. Jesus says if you are looking for recognition from others, well, that's all you are going to get. Since I don't know Tebow's heart or intent, I don't know if he is looking to impress people or looking to be a light in darkness.
It's funny because I have had the same questions about prayer events for National Day of Prayer in my town. Some people gather to pray on the lawn of our town municipal building. It's the same question- are they doing this because they want others to see that they are praying? That's where Jesus' teaching comes in and he says if that's the case, you just want to be seen as praying people, then you have received your reward in full. But if their heart is to be humble lights in darkness, that's different. Truth is, only God knows for sure.

I think it would be worthwhile to remove the celebrity from this conversation and discuss the matter of public prayer. I thought about Jesus' words while listening to a church member emphasize the need for Christians to learn how to pray in front of people. The same question Mr. Sullivan asked rattled in my head, "How has the reverse of Jesus' teachings become the orthodoxy?" Even when His disciples said "teach us how to pray", He seemed most concerned with making sure it wasn't a show before getting to the actual content. So the question, if we're more concerned with obedience than image, is why public prayer at all?

Matthew 6:5 is what Andrew was talking about, but the question is, does Andrew's exegesis hold up? As I read it Jesus is speaking to Pharisees who were making public display of devotion to prove their holiness and increase their standing in a culture that valued devotion to God, as opposed to sincerely communicating to their God.

I don't presume to know Tim Tebow's true motives but what he has said in public has been that he sincerely want to serve God and give Him the glory and credit for any success he has. Thus he is not doing it for glory for himself in the world's eyes because the majority of his audience could care less whether he is a Christian or not.
There is no fame to collect and in fact much to risk proclaiming your faith so boldly, because he is inviting people to scrutinize his life and judge him based on his supposed faith.

Hence I can't knock him for "Tebowing". It seems the cost outweighs anything he gains personally from his actions.

minor side note: he's not a rookie. he's a 2nd year player.

as for his tebowing, it's grown into something beyond actually praying, and the phenomenon of tebowing has made somewhat a mockery out of prayer. Tebow IS NOT the first to take a knee and pray after a touchdown, but all of a sudden, it's become a fad.

There are other ways to show devotion to God, and ways to make it public beyond the knee. Hope people can see the Character of God through not only his on the field displays but his life.

"As I read it Jesus is speaking to Pharisees who were making public display of devotion to prove their holiness and increase their standing in a culture that valued devotion to God, as opposed to sincerely communicating to their God."

That sounds like a pretty good argument for silent prayer within the Christian subculture, particularly during worship services.

It's a fair question.

When I was a kid, my Sunday School teacher pointed to Daniel's habit of thrice-daily prayer in front of his open window (Da 6.10) and pointed out that this fairly public demonstration of piety was why the Persians came up with the idea of Darius banning prayer for a month. Her idea was that Daniel was to be commended for it; that it would be hypocrisy to follow God in private but not in public. If they taught the same sort of thing in Tebow's church, no doubt he thinks there's something commendable in public piety: that he's drawing attention to God, and giving Him honor by it.

And if he actually is praying, he can argue that it's not hypocrisy; that Jesus's condemnation of hypocrites who pray publicly does not apply to him, and that the real issue is why we're uncomfortable with his behavior.

My concern is that it might not be hypocrisy now, but if this is a ritual that Tebow feels he has to perform every single time he succeeds on the field, and that sometimes it's not done in gratitude nor worship nor thanksgiving, but because a Christian ought to acknowledge God at such times, then it stops being worship -- and becomes hypocrisy. In my experience, it is ridiculously easy for public piety to become hypocrisy, and I suspect this is the reason Jesus condemns such behavior.

If he were muslim, would people be criticizing him and saying that his regular prayer is nothing but hypocrisy?

Maybe the question should be turned on us. As mentioned previously, Tim Tebow is not the first, and he won't be the last, Christian to take a knee to give thanks to the Lord after a play or victory. Nor is he the first athlete/celebrity/public figure to declare his devotion to the Lord.

In my mind, the question then becomes, "Are we Christians lifting Tim Tebow to a place where he never really wanted his P.D.D. to go?"

Why him, and, not, say, the Bengals Andy Dalton, who quoted Scripture on national TV after TCU beat Wisconsin in the 2011 Rose Bowl?

Just my 2 cents ...

@sheerahkhan, from what I understand Tebow isn't pursuing being a known Christian figure on life's stage. His goal was to play in the NFL, to be an athlete competing at the level of and against the "best." That would be a significant difference.

No, he's not violating the teaching of Jesus.
For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?

Tim is only violating the comfort zone of atheists and some people who say they are Christians but are functional atheists. To those who are perishing, Tim is the fragrance of death. No surprise they resent the odor in their nostrils. From God's Word, that's predictable and normal. If he was gesturing homosexuality or something perverse, they would enjoy it all. But the smell of death will bring mocking and maybe worse.

Should believers be conserned with the mocking and jump to conclusions that this is hurting believers positive testimony in the world? No, but many will. They view evangelism as a marketing thing where you have to appear popular and acceptable for conversions to take place. They lack understanding that conversion requires humility and faith, not desiring some external display of cool. Isaiah tells us that Jesus came intentionally rejecting any external element that would cause desirability from people. "...he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him."

Yeah it is sad that people are making it a "thing". Public prayer isn't a new thing - Jesus was criticizing hypocrites that prayed in public and then refused to give God their hearts and lives.

The fact that people are asking the question means he is doing some good in bringing questions of faith and true conviction to the forefront, even if people aren't understanding him.

Consider the source of the accusation. It sounds like those uncomfortable with faith are using christian-sounding reasoning against a faith that they aren't too supportive of in in the first place. (Saul Alinsky: hold your adversaries to their own rules.)

But was David keeping his heroism in check, when he brashly went against Goliath in the public square (SHOUTING the name of God)? That's pretty bold - and FULL of intentional display. Goliath now, is the secularists. How do you go up against a secularist? You GO with God, wherever you go.

Who goes around begging for more secularism on display? Yet, that is what we get in football games. If Christians don't pray in public, or show their faith in public... the vacuum WILL be filled. And that is what the anti-Tebow crowd wants. They WANT a nebulous secularism that puts sexually-suggestive content on display - but gets uncomfortable when someone prays.

Just what are they scared of? So what if everyone started praying? So what if it's hypocritical? People do what they want to do. They dump Gatorade on each other! C'mon. Secularists want everything and anything BUT a re-surgence of what they think is an ugly or scary faith. I think maybe the secularist crowd should be more concerned about muslims when they start demonstrating in public en masse, than evangelicals. There is a far larger contingent of tyrannical, barbarous, voilent muslims #percentage-wise# than there is of evangelical or pentecostal christians. I'm not saying that we should suppress religious speech or display. I am saying that those who speak against the christian usually wouldn't do it against a muslim (all things being equal).

Not being a follower of the NFL and not knowing Tebow I will not presume to know his motives but I have often wondered what people pray in their PDDs. It has always bothered me when I have heard athletes, celebrities, entertainers, reality TV participants ..... either ask God to help them succeed or thank God for helping them succeed at a their craft publicly. Truthfully I don't think God cares whether the Broncos win or loose.

My hope is that he is praying for safety and good sportsmanship.

Those of you who are into 'Christian' Astrology, Yoga, Labyrinths, etc. might find this website intriguing:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/12/6/2617344/the-stars-align-for-tebows-broncos

This gal claims that the stars are in perfect alignment for continued Tebow success. Of course she rails against those nasty Christians of old who forced pagan practices out of the church, but it really is quite entertaining. "...focus on where Tim Tebow, Elway and Head Coach John Fox are taking this team. In order to do that, it’s helpful to look at how the Broncos organization chart has responded to planetary transitions in the past. We want to see when the Broncos could possibly win a championship and bring home another Superbowl trophy. By looking at the movements of the planets around the Broncos chart above during the six Superbowls they have been to, we can ascertain some fascinating patterns about what planetary alignments indicate success for the Denver Broncos organization."

The fun never ends.

"@sheerahkhan, from what I understand Tebow isn't pursuing being a known Christian figure on life's stage. His goal was to play in the NFL, to be an athlete competing at the level of and against the "best." That would be a significant difference."

As I was once told by an adversarial opponent in a debate, whom, I might add was quite correct in her statement..."He may not have intended this, but he owns the results."

I am sorry to be the one who points this out to you, but the significant difference you speak of was undone the moment Mr. Tebow bent the knee on the football field.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As certainly as I live, declares the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will praise God."

Seems Tebow is just getting a head start. Why is everyone so worked up over this? It's not like he is making a blithering idiot of himself. And even if he was...

Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. You must be humble in all our ways, teaching each other the light of the truth, the light of the Christ. God bless

"Mr. Tebow may indeed turn out to be a hypocrite, like other high-profile Christians in recent memory. Some of us might even want that to happen, because moral failure is something we understand. We know how to deal with disappointed expectations, to turn our songs of praise into condemnation.

What we are far less sure how to do is to take seriously a public figure's seemingly admirable character and professions of higher purpose. We don't know how to trust goodness.

And who can blame us? We don't want to be fooled again.

The one loss in Mr. Tebow's record as Denver's starting quarterback this season came in a 45-10 blowout against the Detroit Lions. Mr. Tebow completed just 46% of his passes. He suffered seven sacks, including one by Stephen Tulloch, after which Mr. Tulloch took a knee, "Tebowing" as Mr. Tebow struggled to rise."

From a really good article found here:
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052970203413304577084770973155282-lMyQjAxMTAxMDEwMTExNDEyWj.html?mod=wsj_share_email

Since I don't know Mr. Tebow, and I'm only aware of this because of the mockery that surrounds this whole "issue."
However, there is a test to see if it this is just a fad, or the real thing.

Does he pray in public when he loses?
Does he give thanks to G-d when he gets crushed, punished, beaten, sacked repeatedly to the point where the team gives up?
Does he give thanks when he can't hit his recievers, or when he is thrashed and trashed by tons of flesh wanting to rip him limb from limb?
Does he give thanks when all his best just isn't good enough?

If he can give thanks then...then I think his public peity is something serious for him.

If we were living in Jesus' day when people who prayed in public were held in high regard, then I would criticize his actions. But, we are not. We are living in a secular, pluralistic age. People who pray in public are not looked upon with admiration--they are mocked. Two different worlds and therefore two different responses are required.

I agree with the scriptures listed for public and private prayer when the heart's motive is to give God all the glory. With Tim Tebow, I appreciate that he is standing and bowing as a role model for Jesus Christ. We have to hear and see from someone we respect that we can actually have a 24/7 relationship with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I never heard or saw that until I was in my twenties; I thought "attending" church was enough. We should uphold those in the spotlight in prayer for them to be pure in motive and to hear God in how He is best honored.

Pity there's no criticism of the usual crude displays of petty egotism that go on after tackles, catches, and touchdowns. Acts of reverence are excoriated; boorish chestthumping and self-adoration get a free pass.

Kind of proves the point.

There is no self-aggrandizement when you are mocked for giving glory to Christ. Leave the boy alone. He does plenty in private to glorify the Lord then as well. The fact that Mr. Sullivan is a contributor to The Daily Beast is enough for me to ignore anything he has to say. If we make any change in our behavior due to criticism from agents of the Enemy of our mortal souls, they will just come up with more criticism, no matter how tortured their exegesis is reaching it.

Jesus was rather severe on those that prayed in a hypocritical manner, "to be seen of men". Throughout the Bible there are other exhortations about lifting up your voice in public. These are different issues.
I live in France and here he might be arrested for such displays. The secular state has taken things pretty far. How far will the secular mentality go in the states?

No! What do teams do after games? Gather in the middle of the field and pray.

Tebowing is not the issue. It is Tim Tebow giving glory and praise to his Lord Jesus Christ. The name of Jesus is what is offensive to people just as Christ is in Christmas.

Personally, I find Tim Tebow's unwavering faith (and his outspokenness about it) quite inspiring. It's a message to our young people that it's okay to be Christian—in fact, it's better than okay. It's fantastic! And, more than that, it's something to talk about, something to be proud of. It's not something to hide.

The greater question is do we care if God is honored on His Sabbath or Lord's Day, not whether Tebo should kneel or not kneel? As you will see from Scripture their should be no seeking our own pleasure on this day much less playing, or watchinig NFL Football.

Remember Jesus did not come to abolish any iota or dot of the Law, much less the whole 4th commandment. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

Have Heaven and Earth passed away? If they have not passed away, then the law and the prophets are not to be abolished. In Jesus we have a sacrifice for sins so the sacrificial system has gone away, but not the moral law or 10 commanments. Thus the ceremonial sabbath's have passed away (Colossians 2:16), but not the moral sabbath which is still binding as Jesus said in (Matthew 5:17-20). Remember the Apostle John speaking as well:

“We know we have come to know him if we obey his commandments, He who says I know him and does not KEEP his commandments [4th command-Sabbath or any commandment] is a liar and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:6). If we only know if we know Him if we keep His commandments, how then can any Sabbath Breaker say they know him???? This is as Jesus said, "If you love me obey my commands" not my suggestions or if you want to."

No, we are still to obey the Sabbath as in the Old Testament with the exception of the change from the Jewish Saturday unto the Christian Lord's day or first day of the week [i.e. Sunday]. This has been the practice of all Christians whether in the The Bible, Early Church, the Protestant Reformation, or their sucessors to the present day.[While Church History is helpful and much dis-regarded in our day, Scripture is our final authority for faith and practice].

Since Jesus said he did not come to abolish but fullfil the law [Math 5;17-20] we can look to the prophets for guidance:

We see this from what is forbidden on the Sabbath day according to (Isaiah 58:13-14) [1] “Not doing your own ways, [2] Nor finding your own pleasure, [3] Nor speaking your own words.” Certainly playing with toys, doing recreations, and playing sports, and watching sports, are doing our own ways, finding our own pleasure, and speaking our own words.”

In going against God's law, we [Tim Tebo] and others are playing with idols on God's Holy Day"

“They rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes, and profaned my Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols” Pro sports on the Lord's Day is a blasphemy. (Ezekiel 22:16.

Are we not just like Israel telling God we want none of His Sabbaths, but want our idols on His day. When we should be preparing for Heaven in enjoying communion with him in prayer, bible reading, fellowship, worship, sabbath keeping, works of necessity in helping people, we are buisy with the world of NFL.

THINK PEOPLE THINK Jesus said if you love me obey my commandments not my suggestions. The Lord said not a jot or tittle of the law could pass away much less the whole 4th command dealing with the Sabbath,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Here are verses for further study for any interested:

I am here to help those being mislead as I was when I used to watch NFL Football all day each Sunday as an unbeliever.

please email me at reformation.drake@gmail.com

Texts below from Robert Murray Mc Cheyne:

Study these not men's opinions of the Sabbath today.

1. Sabbath commanded.-Ex. 16:22-30; 20:.8-11;35:1-3. Lev. 19: 3-30. Dent. 5: 12-15. Neh. 9:14.

2. A sign of God's people.-Ex. 31:.12-17. 2 Kings 4: 23. Ezek. 20:12. Lam. 2:7. Heb. 4.:9.

3. Sabbath-breaking punished.-Num. 15:.32-36. Lev. 26: 33-35. 2 Chron.36:21. Jer. 17:19-end. Lam. 2.:6. Ezek. 20:.12-26. Amos. 8. 4-14.

4. Day of blessing.-Gen. 2: 2, 3. Ex. 16.:24. Lev. 24: 8. Num. 28: 9, 10. Isa. 58: 1-8; 58: 13, 14. John 20:1, 19, 26. Acts 2: 1, with Lev. 23:15. Rev. 1:10.

5. Rulers should guard the Sabbath.-Ex. 20:10. Neh. 13:15-22.

6. Sabbath in gospel times-Psalm cxviii. 24. Isa. 56:23. Ezek. xlvi. 1. Mark 2:.27, 28. Acts 2:1; 20:.6, 7. l Cor. 16: 2. Rev 1: 10. Matthew 5:17-20

Soli Deo Gloria- To God Alone Be The Glory

> Does he give thanks when all his best just isn't good enough?

According to his teammates, he's the same 24-7, win or lose.

Strangely, I saw something on Public Television about this the other day. They started with the stir the public kneeling has caused, but went on to say that although Tebow was only a so-so quarterback up until the miraculous last minute game-winning touchdowns his team keeps pulling off, it was something else that impressed them. They went on to talk about the power of being a leader who leads by encouragement and how effective Tebow is because of that. If the prayer "posturing" were a case of isolated grandstanding inconsistent with his character, it would be worthy of criticism. The fact that his public praying seems to be a genuine expression of a living faith makes it commendable. Whether it is right or wrong depends on the motivation behind it. The motive behind Tebow's actions seems to be love of the Savior. So, I say praise God!

Russell Drake, you wrote the following:

"No, we are still to obey the Sabbath as in the Old Testament with the exception of the change from the Jewish Saturday unto the Christian Lord's day or first day of the week [i.e. Sunday]."

Could you please show me from Scripture where that change in day from Saturday to Sunday is specifically commanded?

So I'm not too worried about watching NFL on Sundays. I do miss a lot of college football, but I'm alright with that!

On topic, I think Sheerahkahn's stance towards neither praising Mr. Tebow nor criticizing him is best (although--and this is just my own observation--his subsequent comments towards Mr. Tebow have appeared to lean towards being critical, so I guess this is hard stance to maintain!). The last thing he needs is for us to raise him up to a level no imperfect sinner can ever keep up. He does what he does, and it would be wise for us simply to leave it at that.

And if you're a football fan, you just enjoy what he does. I'm not a Broncos fan, but I've seen him in a couple of games, and what I've seen him do on the football field in the fourth quarter has just left me speechless both times!

Many pro athletes have made obviously Christian gestures of one sort or another for years. Tim Tebow makes his. Thats all there is to it. He is a very gifted young man and, trust me, GOD will use him mightily in ways we never thought! Tebow is a great athelete and he KNOWS even his own life is a great gift from God.

Jesus's call for praying quietly was made to religious leaders, who used public prayer (often very ornate) for the primary purpose of impressing others and making themselves seem holier-than-them. But there is nothing wrong with showing your sincere faith, often with prayer. Let your light so shine....

Seems to me Jesus often prayed in public, especially right before a dramatic miracle, like the raising of Lazarus or the feeding of 5,000. Public prayer that was the outflow of private, personal, continual fellowship with and dependence on His Father. Jesus prayed in public to give God glory for what God was doing. Always a matter of the heart, is it not?

Finally - Some good news about the faith. I have never bought a NFL jersey but I plan to now. Tebow's faithful witness over years of his career is a refreshing change from the inch deep commitment of so many. He has remained true through some soaring triumphs and some serious challenges. Praise God.

Seems many of our sisters and brothers cannot deal with a little bit of "success" and good news of the advance of the Gospel into more of the public arena.

I wish Christians would STOP criticizing each other and remember who the enemy is and celebrate the name of Christ being lifted up, and the intense level of conversation about spiritual things that Tebow's witness has sparked.

I have 1 Question. 1. If praying in public is not Biblical then why do we pray publicly in Church and with our outside voices.?

To Bill Williams

"Could you please show me from Scripture where that change in day from Saturday to Sunday is specifically commanded?"

Hope it helps!

10 Reasons the Sabbath is commanded by example or by command in Scripture, from David Dickson.

Q. Do not others likewise err who maintain that the observation of the Lord’s Day is only of ecclesiastic and apostolic institution?

Yes. These authors (you see) do confound and make two things really distinct to be but one, namely church and apostolic authority.

Q. By what reasons are they confuted?

[1] Because the fourth command standing, wherein one day of seven is appointed, the numbering [of which day is to be observed] is left free to God himself, that the right and power may be reserved to Christ the Law giver, and to his Spirit, for the change of the day, and continuing the worship prescribed in the fourth command.

[2] From the name itself, for our Sabbath is called the Lord’s Day, Revelation 1:10. “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day,” or, on that Lord’s Day, or, day which is the Lord’s, pointing out a day singularly, and a day which in a particular and special manner is called His day, even as the Lord’s prayer and the Lord’s Supper are so called, because appointed by Christ the Lord.

[3]Because God only can do away with the Lord’s Day (the adversaries granting so much), therefore he that has power to take away has power like¬wise to establish.

[4]Because there is an implicit COMMAND concerning the observation of the Lord’s Day, I Corinthians 16:2. “As I have,” says Paul, “given order to the churches of Galatia, even so you do the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him.” From which place we reason thus, that not the seventh, but the first day, is the chief solemn day for worship after Christ’s resurrection, because the apostles did worship particularly and eminently upon that day, and that in diverse churches, as the fittest time for expressing their charity. He does not think it indifferent what day it be done on, nor that all days are alike, but worships on the first day, not in one church only but in many. Next, this command supposed them to be already acquainted with some special privileges of the first day beyond others, and that there must be some peculiar thing in this day making it fit, yea more fit for such a purpose, rather than any other day.

[5]Because as the seventh day was instituted in remembrance of the works of creation, so the first day, after the work of redemption was finished, succeeded as most convenient for collating and comparing both mercies together.

[6]Because Christ on the first day of the week appeared most frequently to His disciples, and blessed it with His presence, (Matthew 21:8:9, Acts 1:3, John 20:19 and 26.

[7]Because on that day the Holy Ghost descended upon the apostles. And on the same day Peter baptized three thousand, Acts 2:1 4 and 41.

[8] Because the church in the time of the apostles did observe the first day of the week as holy, Acts 20:7. But the practice of the apostles, approved in Scripture, is equivalent to a divine institution.

[9]Because Christ was seen of his apostles forty days after his resurrection, and spoke to them of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God, during which time he taught them all things needful to be known, and among the rest (it is probable) the change of the Sabbath, and the institution of the first day of the week, and that immediately after his resurrection. He has either immediately by himself instituted that day, or has inspired his apostles to observe it, from that same very time.

[10]Because the Lord has remarkably owned this Christian Sabbath, in being remarkably avenged upon the breakers and profaners thereof, as it is clear from several histories.

This was written in the 1600's written by David Dickson from his book Truth's Victory Over Error.

How many of the people critical of Tim use their vacations to go on a mission trip? He does. He is the real deal.

"According to Connor Carroll, a senior at Riverhead (N.Y.) High on the North Fork of Long Island, the Riverhead administration handed out one-day suspensions to four student athletes after a group of Riverhead students decided to spontaneously hold a group Tebowing session in the school." You can read the rest of this story here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/N-Y-teens-suspended-for-Tebowing-in-school-hall?urn=highschool-wp9989

Russel Drake, I appreciate your response and I hope you are willing to continue this conversation. Unfortunately, your response had a lot to say, but it never answered the original question: where in Scripture is there a specific command for the Sabbath to be changed from Saturday (the seventh-day of the week) to Sunday (the first day of the week)?

The closest Mr. Dickson came was the text from 1 Cor 16:2, but all that text EXPLICITLY says is that the Corinthian Christians were to lay aside certain offerings on the first day of the week. There is no EXPLICIT mention of Christian worship in the context.

The next closest text is Acts 20:7, but all that text EXPLICITLY says is that certain Christians were gathered together on the first day of the week to break bread. However, Acts 2:46 tells us that the early Christians broke bread in each others' homes day by day.

As for the other reasons mentioned by Mr. Dickson, they're quite irrelevant. None of the ten give a SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT command for the Sabbath to be changed from the seventh day to the first day. But the fourth commandment, which you have passionately argued for, is very SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT as to which day is to be "remembered". As Mr. Dickson said, which day of the seven is to be observed is left to God himself. So without an equally SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT command from the New Testament changing the day, I see no Biblical reason for the change. The burden of proof is quite high, and Mr. Dickson has not met it. Would you care to try again?

"(although--and this is just my own observation--his subsequent comments towards Mr. Tebow have appeared to lean towards being critical, so I guess this is hard stance to maintain!)."

Doubt leads a critical mind to not trust the immediate presentation of either position, pro or con, but prefers the evidence to reveal itself over the long term to make a more objective observation.
Hence, my admission that I don't know Mr. Tebow, and thus, the surrounding mockery of him that seems to plague the media.

I don't mock him, nor am I offended, nor am I critical of him...and if, as Randy points out, that his team vouches for his praying character in all instances, good or bad, then I accept that this is something very serious for Mr. Tebow.

I still neither praise him, or criticize him...this is his thing, and if it brings a few people to Y'shua then who am I to comment?

I would imagine that those who oppose Tebow taking a knee might extrapolate that to opposing Christians praying in public before a meal in a restaurant. What's even more confusing is that sometimes we're doing things with mixed motives- there is some habit, there is some genuine worship, and there is some awareness of public awareness. I think I'll let God figure out Mr. Tebow.

I think Tebow is wonderful role model for our children that it is alright to show your faith in public since God has been taken out of everything else.

To Bill Williams: I see no Biblical reason for the change. The burden of proof is quite high, and Mr. Dickson has not met it. Would you care to try again?

1. If the Early Church, Christians in the middle ages, and the Reformed Church both Baptist and Presbterian celebrated the Sabbath on Sunday until very recently why go against them? This does not mean they are right, but why go with the Jews and Seventh Day Adventists, rather than the Chrisians throughout the ages.Just a question here are better reasons: Hope it helps!

The continuation of the Sabbath from Old Testament until New Testament. James Fisher states why the seventh day is done away with and the first day of the week instituted in its place:

QUESTION 10. How can the first day of the week be observed in virtue of the Fourth Commandment, when it is not in it particularly mentioned? ANSWER. The Morality of the Sabbath does not lie in observing the seventh day in order from the creation; but in observing such a seventh day as is determined and appointed by God; which may be either the first or last of the seven days, as he shall see meet. Q.11 Under what name or designation is the Christian Sabbath foretold in the Old Testament? A. Under the name of the EIGHTH DAY, Ezek. 43:27 -- "And when these days are expired, it shall be that upon the EIGHTH DAY, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings: and I will accept you, Saith the Lord." Q. 12. Why called the eighth day? A. Because the first day of the week now, is the eighth in order from the creation. Q. 13. What is the efficient cause of the change of the Sabbath? A. The sovereign will and pleasure of him who is "Lord of the Sabbath," Mark 2:28
In the old testament Sunday was the first day, Monday the second day, Tuesday the third day, Wednesday the fourth day, Thursday the fifth day, Friday the sixth day, Saturday the seventh day, NOW Sunday is the eight day prophesied in Ezekiel 43:27 Which now Sunday the Lord’s Day or Christian Sabbath is the First day of the week. Or the eight day in order of creation.
John Brown of Hadddington comments on this text as well:

3. Examples of Sabbath observance by New Testament Christians in Scripture. James Fisher again states Truth’s about the Sabbath: “If our Lord Jesus, after his resurrection met ordinarily with his disciples on the first day of the week; (John 20:19, 26) If after his ascension he poured out his spirit in an extraordinary manner on that day (Acts 2:1-5) If by the example and practice of the Apostles and primitive Christians, recorded in the New Testament, (Acts 20:7) The first day of the week was honored above any other for the public exercises of God’s Worship; (Acts 13:14) If by apostolic precept , the observance of this day , rather than any other was enjoined for Sabbath services, and if this day is peculiarly dignified with the title THE LORD'S DAY then it must undoubtedly be the Christian Sabbath by divine institution. (1 Cor 16:1).

John Brown, Questions and Answers

Q. On which day of the week is the Sabbath now appointed?

—A. On the first day, Acts 20. 7,1 Cor 16. 1,2.

Q. Why was it fixed on that day ]—A. To keep up the remembrance of Christ's resting from his sufferings, and rising from the dead, Math. 28. 1, Heb. 4. 10.

Q. How prove you, that the Sabbath was changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

—A. The first day of the week, or eighth day, was prophesied of as a Sabbath; and the apostles and primitive Christians did always, after the resurrection of Christ, meet for public worship on it, and called it the Lord's day, Ezek. 43. 27, John 20. 19.26, Acts 20 . 7, 1 Cor. 16. 1, 2, Rev. 1. 10.

Q. How prove you, that the example of the apostles is a sufficient warrant 1—A. Because, by being inspired by the Holy Spirit, they taught and enjoined nothing but the will and command of Christ, 1 Cor. 11. 23.

Q. How prove you the reasonableness of changing the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week?

A. Because resting from the purchase of redemption is more glorious than resting from creation work, Rom. 1:4.

Q. Why was this change expedient?

—A. That Christ might show his divine authority, and set up a standing evidence of his incarnation and resurrection ; and make the time, as well as matter of New Testament ordinances, point to himself, Heb. 4.

Q. Are all Christians then bound to keep this fast day Sabbath till the end of the world ?

—A. Yes ; and hence it is called, the Christian Sabbath.

Q. Why then does Paul say. Let no man judge you in respect of Sabbath-days, Col. ii. 16.1

—A. His meaning is, that, under the New Testament, we should not adhere to the ceremonial and Jewish Sabbaths.

Jesus Himself prayed out loud, in public, setting an example of *how* to pray outloud, in public. The verses so many of you are taking out of context (Matthew 6:5,6) are showing us that our prayers should not be said to *impress* others or to seek the praise of men.

Jesus, who prayed in public over and over again, sometimes with a loud voice, is our sinless example that praying in public is a good and godly thing to do, with the right motive of the heart.

He prayed over meals, He prayed in order to heal others, and to raise them from the dead, He praised God - outloud - publicly, and He prayed (public) to the Father to forgive those who crucified Him. Search the Bible, be honest with yourself, and stop misrepresenting the Word of God.

Daniel, whose prayers were *also* misrepresented by the unsaved of his day to try to bring him down once *he* became popular, went ahead and prayed publicly (opening his windows so all could hear) anyway, just as he always had before he was well-known - and God rewarded him for it.

The fact that Tim Tebow is now well known is no reason he should suddenly *stop* praying. He was praying before, he needs to keep obeying the Lord as always, regardless of who may be criticizing him.

There are many more examples in the Bible of praying publicly, so that is not at all unScriptural or wrong.

Those who are abusing the Word of God by twisting two verses out of context, need to study the Word in order to know Him.

Russell Drake, again I appreciate your response, but I am not convinced that you have met the burden of proof. Let me break this down for you. You wrote the following at the beginning of your post:

"If the Early Church, Christians in the middle ages, and the Reformed Church both Baptist and Presbterian celebrated the Sabbath on Sunday until very recently why go against them?"

My answer to your question is simply because there is NO clear and explicit Biblical command to overturn what has ALREADY been made clear and explicit in the Bible. What you do have is a variety of texts that can be interpreted as supporting a change in day, but those are just arguments that would SUPPORT a clear and explicit command. Without the command, there is nothing to support, and those texts can just as easily be interpreted in different ways that have nothing to do with any change in sacredness from the seventh-day to the first day.

Or "eight day", for that matter. In regards to text from Ezekiel 43, it's interesting to note that there is nothing in the NT that I am aware of that specifically attributes a change in Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day as a fulfillment of that prophecy. This is significant, considering how often events in the NT are clearly announced as fulfilling OT prophecies (cf. Matt 1:22-23; 2:5-6; Mk 1:2-3; Acts 2:16-21, etc.)

What it all boils down to is that you keep Sunday as Sabbath instead of Saturday for one reason: tradition. And that's fine, but just be honest about it. Without tradition, there's no biblical justification for the change.

I respect those are honest to admit that they keep Sunday holy because of Church history and tradition, and don't pretend there is a biblical command for doing so. I don't agree with them, but I respect them. If a person believes that tradition is an equal authority with Scriptures, and their conscience is right before God, then who am I to judge? If they are right and I am wrong, I trust God to convict me as I continue daily to seek his will and understand his Word. If I am right and they are wrong, I trust God likewise to convict them. If neither of us are right, and this debate really is much ado about nothing, then let's just respect each other and trust that God will sort things out in the end. Either way, I do accept those who believe differently than me on this issue as brothers and sisters in Christ. I have not always been accepted as such by those on the other side, but I hope most at least on this forum would accept me as well.

One more thing, though, Mr. Drake. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Your original point was that Christians should not be playing or watching football on Sunday because it was the "Sabbath." You claimed your assertion was "from Scripture," but subsequently you have only demonstrated the opposite--namely, tradition: that Sunday should be kept because Christians have been doing it for thousands of years and why go against it (an argument that wasn't too convincing to Martin Luther, either, by the way!)? The problem with tradition, however, is that tradition is constantly evolving. And you can't argue that we should keep Sunday because of tradition, and then try to use "Scripture" to justify a 17th-18th century Scottish interpretation of that tradition as the only valid one. You just can't have it both ways.

Jesus prayed in public at, e.g., the tomb of Lazarus, and also at the Last Supper. He also prayed in private, of course.

The admonitions against public prayer, if read in full context, suggest that the point of those admonitions was to warn against prayer just for the Pharisaical reason of public ostentation. IOW, what is at issue is the motivation for public prayer, and to place emphasis on the act is itself an emphasis on public ostentation ("ostentatiously not-praying") over substance.

As to what Tebow's motivations are ... I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.

JRC

Nonsensical.

Seeing someone on one knee bowing their head in SILENT prayer does not bother me at all. I find it rather endearing. What I absolutely cannot stand is to see people stand around their table in a restaurant, or sitting in a restaurant holding hands and praying out loud. It says to me, "See what good Christians we are? Look at us how good we are!" Something about that kind of public display just irks me.

Thanks for the helpful post! I would not have gotten this otherwise! regards

forgive my english, it is my 3rd language, i will only try to do my best but plz help me help you understand me, Jesus said to go to your room, but that doesn't mean if you're at the other side of the planet to wait till you get home, my feelings from God say that Jesus meant for you to get in a concentration with God and think of him and nothing else, feel the holy spirit in you first, then start your prayer, dont ask for a bicycle or a car or millions of dollors, don't be meterialistic (i hope that's how its spelled) ask meaningful things for your soul and others, i wonder what this football player would need to ask from God? if its to score? is that going to help a soul? heal the sick? of course Not, but everyone's prayers are welcome to god as long as you have the holy spirit in you, my own wish would be for him to spair God's precious time for the ones who are in real need of him, i dont ask anything for me but others. i also ask of you to not trust my word or anyone else read the bible yourself, some comments claming that Jesus prayed in public is faulse, again, please read the bible, simply follow Jesus' foot steps, search why jesus went to the desert, Jesus did not pray before or during the last supper he prayed afterwords, he first asked to be alone when he went to the garden of Gethsemane, that's where the devil apeared to him as a snake to play with his mind not to proseed with his sacrifice to men kind the devil tried to tell him that men dont deserve it...etc you should read the bible... thank you for letting me comment, you have a peacful live.