I think it's dangerous because the techniques work - growth both in attendance and offerings. Which in turn makes us proud, wanting more, because we feel good leading churches with strong growth and giving, never stopping to think that growth can happen with or without the Holy Spirit.

Gilmore is onto an important half-truth, maybe even an 80 percent truth. But it's not the whole truth.

The church is not just an instrument of gospel proclamation. It is to embody the gospel, which means it (at the very least) encourages people to "seek first the kingdom of God"--and that is a profound transformation of orientation--and (perhaps goes so far as to) assist believers in their efforts to be transformed from immaturity to maturity; from captive-to-sin to freedom in Christ; from estranged toward God and others to reconciled to God and others.

The gospel takes people who "love friends and hate enemies" and transforms them into people who "even love their enemies."

That's powerful transformation. And it's powered by the Spirit of God, but it is resisted by individuals and communities. The church is an instrument of God's work in that transformation.

But I agree with Gilmore: the church's business is NOT jazzercise to transform people from fat to thin. And so many other "ministries" that distract from God's redemptive work.

"The church does not exist to help guide transformation" - I will be intersted to hear more about this. I know that God alone brings about transformation, both personal and within society, but scripture suggests that the church has a role to play in this - to cooperate with God in His work of trans/formation; even Paul told the Corinthian church that he and Apollos had a role to play (planting seeds & watering them), but it was God who caused the growth or transformation.

I suppose if "help to guide" means to engineer or to dictate, than I am in agreement.

I appreciate Gilmore's warning. But in the last couple years, I've had just enough experience with demonic spirits to convince me that part of the ministry of the church is "deliverance." Some of these spirits were masquerading as suicidal tendencies, others as mental illness, others as voices in the head.

Yes, it's God's Spirit that does the work of deliverance, but it's usually through an instrument of the Body of Christ--a person who prays, a minister willing to confront the evil spirit, a community that provides a healing and Christ-centered environment.

This is not cheap transformation. These are matters of life and death.

And I was so excited when he argued against business practices dominating the church...

The two kingdoms stuff is just nonsense. I'm sorry, Gilmore seems like a thoughtful, intelligent person, so it isn't personal.

But seriously, the two kingdoms stuff is just nonsense. It reinforces all the other dualisms that hinder the church. Not working for the church? Not working for the eternal kingdom.

It is always selectively applied, anyway. Oh, *these* parts of life right now absolutely have to match up with God's intentions for the world, but *those* parts are okay if they reflect the world's values. Not much we can do about *those* parts.

I remember having ethical struggles in my first job out of college. A pastor told me that "that's just how the world is, and you can't change everything". What really matters is helping the church, evangelizing, ect. But then we are also told to organize and vote for pro-life positions. Huh?

Two kingdoms means that those in charge get to pick which parts of the kingdom vision they want to try and implement and which ones they don't. Thumbs down for discipleship at that rate.

I await your second part, as I think there are yet more explanations to made which may, or may not give dimension to what you have provided here.

On board so far.

The church IS in the business of building better Christians. There's "encouraging one another" in Hebrews. There's "teaching them all things I have commanded you" in the great commission. And much else that plays a role in transforming people into mature Christians. I don't think that Gilmore has really thought through the difference between business and church. Businesses try to make money by answering people's wants. The church should be building people to satisfy Christ. When churches use people to build institutions and careers, then churches are too much like businesses.

The church IS in the business of building better Christians.

I can buy into this limited role for the institutional church if Christians get serious about taking the gospel out into the public sphere, integrating their faith with the lives that they live at home, at school, in their places of business, etc.

One of King Saul's big problems was that the Lord didn't fund the office. It's kind of funny really - He funded the Levites - but He didn't fund the king. So Saul had to figure out his own funding. It's really no different now.... The Lord's not the one who established 98% of these offices that people hold in the church.... so they have to find their own funding...

Totally agree that church is not a business and shouldn't be run like one. But I worry that the given reason for the church's existence will also not lead us to make disciples. I think that we need to go beyond the question of church-as-business-or-not if we are going to engage the West with the gospel. Newbigin's voice seems extremely important here: the church as a sign, instrument and foretaste of the kingdom of God.

I think there's a real problem with people on the right only looking at the excesses of those on the left for justifying their "rightness", and vice versa. As a result, those on the right who need to get closer to whole ministry run further to the right - and likewise for the left. Satan just loves it.
Clearly it's about embracing Christ wholly, and you have to know Him to come to that position. So sound evangelism is priority, but John 17 (and much else) calls us to strive to honour one another and strive to see what is good, and be slow and sure before condemning. And very humble about our own efforts.

I agree church's should not be run like a business, the church job is to help move us closer to the almighty. That said, it would to the community's advantage and growth and the healthy growth of the church for the church to own business's. However, the ministers job is only to minister to the church, the business's are run by managers hired by the church.

>>The church does not exist to help guide transformations, and this goes for two types of transformations. The church has no role in guiding personal transformations in individuals, which only contributes to turning Christianity into what Christian Smith has described as therapeutic moralistic deism.

I agree that we do need to protect against "therapeutic moralistic deism," however, there is a huge difference between that and guiding personal transformation (aka discipleship). The former puts self first, the latter is helping a person learn to submit themselves to God.

>>Neither should the church see itself as guiding collective transformations

Isn't Acts 2:42-47 the collective transformation of the community of Christ? "...Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common."

It's pretty clear to me from reading the gospels that Jesus loved the whole person not just their soul, otherwise why would he have healed and fed people's bodies?

Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. -Matthew 25:40

Why is business considered dirty? So many of Jesus' parables are from the world of business. He himself was a carpenter.

Christians, so immersed in the unbiblical but Augustinian separation of earthly and spiritual, forget that the original commission was an earthly business command: Dress the garden and keep it. That has not been done away with.

Gilmore's objections to technological tools will be like the early churches objecting to printed bibles because the original scriptures were delivered orally.

For one of God's model of multi-sensory worship services, read what he decreed for the Ark and the Temple - music, incense,sacrifices...So what is wrong with video screens,cup holders, power point.

Hmmm... I don't disagree with the presenting problem: churches grabbing stuff from industry or the market and carrying it, lock, stock, and barrel, into the congregation is unacceptable to be sure. I applaud an effort to challenge this practice.
But, I fear in an effort to address this, Jim has still affirmed a paradigm that needs exploding: the notion that the Church is an institution at all. She is neither institution, business, school, non-profit social organization or anything else short of the living, organic, dynamic, Bride of Christ. She is a people. She is a family. Her role is more integrative than compartmentalized.
Splitting hairs over what kind of institution she is just leads us back down the same road we're trying to abandon.