"'Pastor John Lanza said the lesson was a surprise "to secure the shock value of it and make it much more real."'

Oh I'll bet the "shock value" is setting in for the Pastor and whoever else was part of this incident as their defense lawyers explain to them how deep into the Criminal Justice System they truly are now.

And I bet the "shock value" will really set in when their Lawyer(s) explains to them that the law states that if a victim believes that the gun is loaded, and is in the state of mind as such that they feel their life is in imminent danger, then that incident, under the Law is dictated by the viewpoint of the victim, not the viewpoint of "it's all a joke/prank/teaching/lesson" of them, now identified as perpetrators.

"the church is being investigated for crimes against a minor--a second-degree felony that may result in up to 10 years in prison."

At least under California Law, the investigation, and any sentencing is based on each individual involved, so if there were more than one (1) minor, say, five (5) minors involved that would be five (5) separate investigations...not to mention, that each of those investigations would be treated as individual cases for prosecution as a whole when it goes to trial.
Which means that each minor (and by minor, the Law defines minor as someone under the age of 18), means that kidnapping, assault and battery, use of a gun in the commission of a felony, conspiracy, and intimidation through threat of violence will be added into the list of a charges.
In short, 10 years would be a minimum with a plea bargain considering all the charges that could be filed, but the reality is each of them could face life sentences for their "prank/teaching/lesson" whatever the pastor and the other adults involved want to call it.

A lesson for us all...when wanting to teach a lesson up front and personal, make the disclaimer beforehand to everyone in the church, keep it on church grounds, and allow people to opt out before proceeding with the demonstration.

When are we going to stop shocking people and staging events and start preaching Jesus. That young lady is traumatized, and will be affected by this fear for a long time. Too far. This went too far by half. And they would do it again?? Repentence, boys. Repentence.

Hey he got his point across - it worked real well.

In the spirit of Gal 5:12 - maybe they should have gone the whole way and cut the pastor's head off with a butter knife - probably could have even avoided prosecution if they'd have done that. (and people say there's no sarcasm in the Bible)

This was taken way too far and I think it is such a shame that this took place. I think the pastor should have talked about the perscuted church instead of having the youth be involved in something that they had no idea what was going on. The persecuted church in Acts is a great example of churches that where under fire by the old government and the laws.

I believe that a great book for talking about the persecuted church, besides the Bible, is “Martyrs” by DC Talk and the Voice of the Martyrs. This book paints a very vivid picture of persecution in the church and it is powerful enough to shake someone up without having to “kidnap” them. When I talked with my Sunday school class about the persecuted church I read several entries from this book (with parent’s permission and pre-council). After reading several of the stories the kids and I had some great discussion and a wonderful time of prayer afterwards. Get a book or borrow a movie, just make sure you have the parent’s ok and the kids know what is going to happen.

I believe persecution is real and alive and well in different degrees around the world and even here in our own back yard. It is only by our faith in Jesus the Christ we find ourselves living through it. A faith that is needs to be taught, shown and lived. This faith only comes from a wanting and growing relationship in and with Jesus. Remember it is his faith before becomes our faith, it his gift to us to be drawn upon in the trials, tribulations, and persecutions that lie waiting for us until his return. Persecutions and the act of persecution is real but the love and righteousness of Jesus is more real. Remember he has overcome world and we can too through him and him alone. Everyone who reads this pray for the girl, the Pastor, and most of all to Jesus for light to be shown and seen.

Another example of how the church is influenced by the world. Shock jocks and thrill rides, and anything exciting to keep momentum going are becoming normative in youth ministry. Great suggestions mentioned by others on good ways to teach about the persecuted church. This is an utter Fail.

I believe there is no better way to learn something than to experience it, that being said, Pastor Lanza should have at the very least discussed this beforehand with the kids parents to ensure that they were okay with it. I can appreciate what Lanza was trying to do, and I have no doubt that in many ways he succeeded in changing the kids perspectives on persecution, no doubt in the least, but there always needs to be a measure of prudence when you want to do anything so creative and radical as this. I'm sure if Lanza would have really looked into this and realized the kind of criminal penalties that he could be facing when everything was said and done, he would have tweaked on or two things about that particular lesson.

That the church got criminal charges against them for this sort of thing is absolutely ridiculous. I have participated in "mock disasters" that are organized by emergency workers (police, fire, and ambulance workers). They willing let the vast majority of people involved (many of them children as young as nine) to experience it as a "real" disaster. They got some of the staff to "play dead" or injured complete with make-up and props to appear to have head wounds and broken bones. They used smoke machines in an upper hallway, so by the time the kids had been evacuated they could see smoke coming out the windows. I don't see how this church (as stupid as their stunt was) could be held criminally responsible for having an event that in many ways would evoke the same feelings and responses as the mock disasters practiced by emergency workers.

I actually remember "playing" a "game" in college called "The Persecuted Church." Everyone involved knew that it wasn't "for real." We had an organizational meeting prior to the game and a debriefing session after. Essentially we were divided into two groups: persecuted and persecutors. Upon being divided the "church group" had to plan where their church was, where the "pastor" lived and where they wanted to have the "service." The persecutors dressed in military gear and had fake guns, had to set up a "detention centre," and tried to catch all the Christians they could.

It sounds a lot like capture the flag: lots of fun, right?

It certainly didn't feel like capture the flag. Because we knew that this kind of stuff was reality for many believers we didn't take it lightly. Though we all knew it was a game, because we believed in Christ we were allowing ourselves to become emotionally wrapped up in the action. Some Christians cried, some persecutors felt guilty. It wasn't "fun."

But it was good. Very good. The debriefing session, during which we talked about our experiences and prayed was much more powerful than any of us had expected. I've often wished to do such a thing again... With the full knowledge of what we were doing.

As for the pastor wanting it to feel "real," even the persecuted church knows that they can possibly get caught, so the "shock" factor wasn't absolutely necessary to get the point across.

There was a policeman involved? And he apparently didn't know any better? Unbelievable!

This is unbelievable! Those poor kids are going to suffer the psychological consequences of this traumatic experience for years to come. Just because it wasn't 'real' doesn't matter, this trauma will still have lasting effects on those kids' sense of safety and truth. Despicable.

"I don't see how this church (as stupid as their stunt was) could be held criminally responsible..."

A couple of things you need to know about criminal law...first of which it is there not for the perpetrator, it is there for the victim.
Criminal law is about retribution against the offending party, or, in the parlance of the Police work, "a negative response to deviant behavior."
The "alleged" balance to that is that the perpetrator is consider innocent till proven guilty...but the reality is "you're going no where till we ascertain whether you are guilty or not."

The examples you cited, and they are valid examples for comparison to this episode is that the children involved knew forehand "this is a mock drill" and so the "intensity of the moment" is understood more as "wooohooo, this is interesting/fun/cool."

Now, take that same scenario exercise, except this time, you, your children, and your spouse are sitting in a restaraunt having a quiet dinner after work, and in comes three hooded men brandishing firearms of varying sorts; and then you hear sirens, and you have time to look out the window to see the police lining up, aiming guns into the restaruant.

You and your family are tied up, threatened with your lives, your children crying, your husband visibly worried that he may see one of his loved ones get shot, point-blank, and there isn't a damn thing he can do about it. Think about the terror, as you see SWAT team snipers, and a assault team bust in, and gun fire ripping through your ear drums.

And just when you think, "This is it, this is where I see the end of my life's efforts." Everything stops, and your City Police chief comes in, and thanks you all for being "unknowing" participants in a Police Hostage Rescue exercise, and have a nice night.

Tell me, honestly, would you be "oh, that's okay, no foul, no harm done." ?

So, I think it's always a good thing for people in general to understand the nature of the human mind in stressful situations, even when they're known as "mock" before hand.

I recommend all of you, including the editors of Out of UR, familiarize yourself with this study. It's called the Stanford Prison Experiment, and it was run by students as wardens, and as prisoners. I think you will all find this quite interesting.

Ignorance is bad, but what is worse than that are the results of our actions born from our ignorance.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Paul, I think you may have misread a prior post. No policemen involved.

Thanks, sheerahkahn, especially for the reference to the study.

To clarify: in my example the police department, the firefighters, and paramedics all knew it was only a mock disaster, as well as the deparment
heads of the institute. None of the chrildren knew it was a "mock" disaster, nor did the rest of the staff. The vast majority of those involved believed the disaster to be real.

That said, I didn't stop to think last night that the laws would naturally be different in the US, including what would be considered criminal as opposed to "merely" civil. Regardless of where the fiasco took place, stupid is stupid anywhere.

Alisha and other posters, I forgive you for being so negative against the church who simply tried their best in this matter. You said the word, 'stupid' so that's not nice at all. You should be careful in what you say..I don't think that was an unwise idea at all. It's preparation for what's coming ahead of us in our future soon. Sorry, but that's so and there's nothing you can do about it because as Jesus said something about us the Christians suffering because of His name's sake. It's in the Gospels. The time is coming, and we must be ready for that. Yes,. even in U.S. because our government, let's say that it has some issues and I know that America will be purifed after the 3rd darkness covering it which George Washington saw in his vision. He said that it was terrible or was it horrible which means that the 3rd is the worst of all. So I believe we are in the beginning of that 3rd darkness now but not sure.
However, there are also other ways that we can be gentle which would be reading material from the 'The Voice of the Marytrs' which does have a website, just google it and then there's some movies that does sound like a good idea, actually. The pastor could have at least forwarned them just a bit so that way they would not be in trouble that they are in right now. I don't think they are criminals. Gimme a break!! That's what other Christians in other areas are considered criminals! Did you think about that one? That time will be here in U.S. soon where Christians will be considered criminals. I am sorry if any one of you refuse to believe the hard truth...However, there's hope for everyone as well. Jesus is coming back soon than what we would have thought so be prepared for that..God and Jesus is not angry with you just with sin, that's all.

"The pastor could have at least forwarned them just a bit so that way they would not be in trouble that they are in right now. I don't think they are criminals. Gimme a break!! That's what other Christians in other areas are considered criminals! Did you think about that one? That time will be here in U.S. soon where Christians will be considered criminals. I am sorry if any one of you refuse to believe the hard truth..."

Marcie,
First, thank you for exhibiting the forgiving spirit of Y'shua, that speaks well about your sincerity.

Now, I would like to address this part of your post since I feel it encapsulates your point directly.

The purpose of our faith, and the purpose of Y'shua explaining suffering for his sake wasn't to establish a baseline of expectant fear in us so we know when we're plenty scared before anyone has a chance to put the fear of persecution in us.
No, that was not why he told us of that.
He explained that following him would have consequences...not just for ourselves, but for the communities we live in. So, his forewarning was so when it did happen, unexpectedly, we did not live in fear, but in the knowledge that we have a future.

"this world is just temporary journey on our eternal walk with G-d."

or

"Where O'death is thy sting?"

So, to the meat of the issue...

This incident in Pennsylvania was, and is stupid, and herein is why...the Youth Pastor did not think [operative word here is think] through the long term implications of his actions, which, oddly enough, falls under the heading of "why people do stupid things."
The common thread amongst criminals, and the association is a loose tangent of connectivity so bear with me, is that they don't think through their actions.
However, the common thread amongst nice, everyday people who commit horrible crimes once in their entire lives is because...

Yes, that's right, they didn't think through their actions.

"I just wanted to scare him"
"I wanted her to respect me and stop yelling at me"

And the most common ending to all those things these otherwise normal people finish their explanations with...

"I didn't think it would end this way."
"I didn't mean for her to get hurt"
"I can't believe I did that....wha...I don't know what happened to me or why I took it so far."

Those Marcie are statements made by average, everyday people who committed crimes of passion, and they all stemmed from one, critical absence of restraint...They didn't think through their actions, they just went with them.

Sometimes you have to listen to the small voice inside you that says you are about to do something stupid. Hopefully the church won't get sued out of ministry.