Great Article.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

I think that it is a fair assumption that the husband here was a believer. If that is the case, I think that the Word is crystal clear on how we should treat him. We cannot just say "it's okay baby, and pat them on the head". It must be dealt with by the church. If he repents, by all means...open wide the doors of the church and our loving arms as well. If not though we should as it says a little earlier in 1 Corinthians 5 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

The church today is a reflection of the weak and powerless people who fill up the seats. We do not take a stand on the never changing Word of God and so our lives reflect that. The Spirit is not moving in our lives because of our "political correctness", because of our ineptness, because of the way that we handle and translate the Word to a culture that has absolutely no desire for absolutes...

I truly believe in the church. I think that the church is the most important organization in the history of civilization. But we as the church and followers of "The Way" have to be ones that, like the sons of Issachar (1 Chronicles 12:32), who understand the times and know what God's people should do".

Finally a blog post that seemed to actually pay attention to the content of the sermon, not just the extraneous details.

I have read Mr. Mohler's page, and the only thing I have come away with is that Mr. Mohler has completely lost touch with what Christianity is about...I got to this point...

"Even greater pressure is now exerted by the sexual revolution in general, and, more particularly, the question of homosexuality."

and decided that further reading would irreparably erode my opinion of Mr. Mohler, and birth doubt of the SBC having some form of attachment to the Christian faith besides just similar titles and words.

As a (young) Southern Baptist minister I was appauled by Dr. Mohler's comments and Denny Burk's promulgation of his comments. Neither seems to have actually listened to the whole sermon and are, as this post notes, missing the point.

I am getting weary of the leadership of my convention demanding that we address this issue with the same vitriol and condemnation as they do without considering the larger issues involved. Any sensible person listening to the whole sermon (and having a basic knowledge of Andy's overall ministry) recognizes that this is a point about being gracceful towards people who deeply damage you.

Mohler is wrong in his opinion and wrong in throwing it out there without seeking Andy's perspective first. Our convention continues down the path to oblivion and I fear it is led by these terribly myopic leaders.

Andrew's piece is a good one. Reasonable. Sort a lot like Andy's original point.

I think Adam deserves some public recognition from North Point for defending grace on every single blog out there. You are on it, bro!

Al Mohler doesn't sound like one who is bashing gays but is celebrating what the gospel can do to transform the lives of all sinners who live in sin. He makes it clear in this video ---> http://youtu.be/8Gi7TOMjr3Y?t=3m25s

I don't think Mohler has a "fear-based approach" to those who are homosexual. I think his fear is we don't celebrate the grace in the gospel enough that changes and transforms lives, because if we did then we would call out sin so that people can embrace the grace of the gospel.

It's strange though that in the sermon Andy Stanley goes out of his way to point out adultery as a sin but not another sin, homosexuality. I think that leads to a lot of confusion in his talk. Then I hear his follow up sermon, (the last in the series "Christian", "Working it out"), and I hear a sermon that seems to pit theology vs. practice, with practice winning out in the name of changing the world. As if those two battle one another. Maybe in a world where we Christians mistake Gandhi's famous quote on Christianity (“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”) as being a driving force for change. But let there be no doubt, Gandhi was no fan of Jesus. He liked his idea of Jesus, but not God in the living flesh who boldly proclaimed himself the savior of the world and then proceeded to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament by dying on a cross, raising from the dead three days later and then ascending to heaven. That is theology and that goes right along with the practical implications of what it means to having been born again in Christ, being made a new creature, no longer a slave to sin, enabled to truly love God and our neighbor.

I think the troubling thing about Stanley's message (which I listened to by the way) was that he seems told a man he was commiting adultery, which excluded him from serving on the leadership team, and told him to divorce his wife, then made not mention that as a homosexual the man was disqualified from serving on the volunteer team. This seems like a double standard that needs to be clarified.

Oh yeah, plus the whole point of the message that grace and truth need to be held in tension....bunk. grace and truth are perfectly reconciled on the cross. No more tension.

@caleb, he wasn't serving on a leadership team. At Northpoint the leadership team is the head staff team. He was on the host team (probably working in the parking lot or handing out bulletins.) Minor, but important point in your comment.

So Christ has grace and truth right. Do we need to bother with it? Saying that Christ had it right doesn't exactly solve the problem for those of us that are trying to get it right now.

Christ was also sinless, that does not mean that we don't need to preach about sin.

Adam,
Yeah, I wrote the wrong thing the first time and the volunteer thing second if you notice in my original comment. I think the point still stands...why should adultery be considered worse than homosexuality? Why should adultery disqualify you but living in an unrepentant homosexual relationship not? Now, if he was repentant and struggled with same-sex attraction but was resisting that temptation...that is a different story. But serving in any kind of leadership position with a church while openly living in a homosexual relationship is, to anyone who actually believes the Bible at all, completely wrong (Just look at the 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 passage cited above...seriously, how do we get around that?)

Grace is exhibited in church discipline, because it means that the church actually cares enough about a persons soul, not just their feelings, to teach the word of God and act on it. The purpose of church discipline is not meanness, but to bring people to repentance...it is a consequence of sin with the purpose of reconciliation in sight.

And Adam, when I say grace and truth were perfectly reconciled at the cross I mean this: Truth means we are all deserving of wrath and judgement for our sin. Grace is extended to us daily because of Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross. We need a daily reminder of the wrath of God towards sin and the reality of Christ's bearing of that sin and the forgiveness offered by that sacrifice. This means we should daily be led to repentance for sin and faith. Grace and truth are reconciled in a real, practical way at the cross. Stanley, whom I have never criticized until I listened to this sermon, muddies the water with this kind of talk...he doesn't help real people overcome real sin, he just helps them feel better about themselves. That is not grace or truth...it is defeat.

Caleb,

That was a beautiful comment you wrote there. Absolutely wonderful.

@Caleb, it matters for a couple of reasons in this case. One I Cor 5:9-11 is very clearly about Christians. It does not seem to apply to this case.

Second, I believe (although this is conjecture based on other sermons and knowing the way that Andy works) that conviction of sin is a process. So if someone acknowledges a sin then working through that sin first before confronting with a sin that they do not acknowledge both builds credibility with the person and allows for further conviction of sin.

In the Christian life, the Holy Spirit does not convict us of sin all at once but over time.

"Why should adultery disqualify you but living in an unrepentant homosexual relationship not?"

A fair point, so, what is worse, adultery, homosexuality, lying, cheating, stealing, hatred of one's brother, cursing, pride, philandering, judging, condemning, drinking, gorging...what sin take's precedence that is the bottom line, the very bottom line for serving in ministry?

So, here, lets play a game, and this game is called, "substitute the sin with another!"

"Now, if he was repentant and struggled with lying but was resisting that temptation...that is a different story. But serving in any kind of leadership position with a church while openly lying is, to anyone who actually believes the Bible at all, completely wrong (Just look at the 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 passage cited above...seriously, how do we get around that?)"

But herein is the problem...you, Caleb, have the stone in your hand. Nice big stone too. It's called "your interpretation of the bible and what it says to me" which, looking at your stone in your hand...it's a pretty big stone.
To me, I see a straw.
As in strawman, as in red herring, as in Homosexuality has become the center of our "THIS IS THE LINE THAT NONE SHALL PASS!" and in that zeal a blindness to all else becomes painfully common, and after a while, hypocritically obvious.

Perhaps, if you read all of Corinthians, and then did a study on Corinth...perhaps, maybe, you'll better understand what the Church in Corinth was up against, what their troubles were, and why Paul wrote what he wrote.

Homosexuality is a sin, but it's not the only one.

After reading a couple of articles regarding the message preached by Andy Stanley, I listened to the entire message on line. The question I would like answered is, if the ex-husband and his partner were not in an adulterous relationship, would they have been asked to disengage from ministry for the very same reason they in fact were asked in the first place - that being they were engaged in the outright sinful lifestyle? The illustration as given by Pastor Stanley implies that would not be the case and, there is the real issue - inconsistent application of the truth within the body.

I would agree that there is a tension between truth and grace but they are not, at the same time, mutually exclusive of each other. How can you have one without the other in the context of being a follower of Christ? Pastor Stanley’s other illustration in the sermon (the women in John 8) points to this fact and is what confuses the point in the end. Jesus tells the woman that He does not condemn her (grace) but does not stop there; He then tells her to stop sinning (truth). This is what is missing from Pastor Stanley’s sermon illustration. It illustrated grace without addressing truth – exactly what he was preaching against.

@ Adam, I didn't get from the sermon that these me were not considered Christians. If someone is not a Christian they should be loved and befriended. However, they are not qualified for membership or church service. However you define "Membership" it essentially means "you belong to the body of Christ." A church cannot affirm that an unrepentant sinner is a member of the body of Christ. This does them injustice by not calling them to repentance and the church injustice by allowing sin to run free in the church.

@ sheerahkahn, Let's do play that game. Surprisingly, I agree with you. An unrepentant Liar is disqualified for church service. If I am caught telling everyone I have finished my M.Div (I actually have a couple credits left) and am caught in the lie, and I say GRACE! people, forgiveness...then I go on telling the lie to others and, get caught, and say COME ON GUYS! Drop the stones! I am an unrepentant liar and not worthy of service in the church.

The issue is not that homosexuality is any worse than any other sin...it is just as bad. Thankfully any REPENTANT sinner is welcome in the body and might eventually be qualified for service in the church. I believe it was Jesus who, after condemning the stone wielding hypocrites, then told the adulterous woman to "Go and sin no more."

Often the cry of "that is just your interpretation" is an easy way of avoiding the clear teaching of scripture. The Bible does say something...and many things very clearly. Our task is to bring ourselves in line with it, not to cover up all the spots that embarrass us so we can present a culturally acceptable Christianity to the world.

I actually know and work with homosexuals on a daily basis. I love these people. I believe what the Bible says, that their choices are destructive and lead, if not repented of, to hell. But, I also believe in the power of the Gospel to change people. To make people new. I will not be silent on the reality of sin, theirs and mine, or the hope offered for all sinners at the cross.

forget the failure to mention the homosexuality. the proper response was to go to these two men and discipline them. if they fail to repent and cease the relationship they are to be considered unbelievers and removed from the north point business. it is what God's Word commands of his church to keep her witness clean. it does not show perfection in any human being. it shows faithfulness to God's Word and shows the world they should not show up to church for a show. north point church is not a new testament church so there is very little reason to be upset by any of this. they are a seeker driven business entity that will be harshly judged by their boss when he returns to judge the living and the dead. the fact that these two homosexual adulteresses were allowed to "minister" in another campus setting tells us this is not a real church. Called Out Ones!

Andrew do you ever get tired of being the poster child of the Gay Christian movement in North America?

@Tim. Any valid argument you might have come up with (if you had bothered to offer one) was undone by your ad hominem attack.

What wearies me here is that the sin of judgmentalism, aided by proof-texting and self-righteousness has again reared its ugly head. All we do is bicker amongst ourselves, creating divisions and ruptures that allow the enemy to slip in.

Stanley's point about living in the tension between truth and grace is powerful. Unfortunately the only tension here is between people who would rather argue than seek the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. This is why the unbelievers I meet are so disinclined to seek The Way.

"Often the cry of "that is just your interpretation" is an easy way of avoiding the clear teaching of scripture."

I agree because many times people avoid the teaching of scripture by using "their interpretation" rather than allowing scripture to reveal itself.

However, I understand your point, and for that I am glad, but there is one issue of clarification we need to hammer out...

"I love these people. I believe what the Bible says, that their choices are destructive and lead, if not repented of, to hell"

I work with everyone. believer and non-believer, and the sins we all hold dear to our hearts would damn us in second if we were not saved.
Thus, as I read your second quote, I am forced to ask you...can a person who has engaged in homosexual behaviour, struggled with it, and occasionally falls to temptation, and yet professes the risen Christ be considered a Christian?

I am not talking about service in ministry, I am talking about your view of them as a fellow believer.

What is left out of this illustration is the chidren. This difficulty of ministering in a post-Christian culture. Obviously the woman does not condone homosexuality or adultery and perhaps her and the church's motivation is to preserve the relationship between her kids and the father? Did anyone consider that perhaps he is a crappy husband (leaving her for another man, arrghh), but still a good father? Would ex-communicating him from worship and their life be better than continuing to include him? Is the act of including him in these things mean the mother/church are condoning his sinful actions? I would argue that it does not...it simply illustrates that we live in a fallen world where we all struggle with hating the sin and loving the sinner--even those who still claim to be Christian.

I am so confused! Until recently, I had it all figured out, but I have become convicted of holding gay people up as especial sinners. This attitude has led many gay people to suspect, resent, and despise Christianity as a synonym for an intolerance toward them that does not extend to others, particularly those whose sins are of the heart and therefore hidden from public view. I like and respect the gay people within my small community, and the part of me that wishes to live in love and peace with everyone wants to forget about injunctions against such behavior. At the same time, I cannot deny that the Bible plainly and specifically condemns homosexuality as well as a host of other behaviors and attitudes. How do I reach out in love to the portion of the gay community that is already leery of the faith without betraying the Scripture when the tough questions arise?

@sheerahkahn, good distinction. Yes, I believe they could be a Christian under those circumstances, thank God. I know for a fact that homosexuality is a difficult and painful struggle for many people, it is a long road and much grace and patience is needed. What I hate is seeing people give up the fight because some punk (not necessarily talking about Stanley with this yet, hopefully he never will get this far) tells them to give up the fight because God loves them just how they are. That is like telling a murderer, and adulterer, a liar, etc. that no repentance is needed. Yes, my biggest issue was with the openness of the homosexual relationship and the seeming lack of church discipline. That is ultimately harmful long term to all involved.

@ KH, quit whining about proof-texting. At least we have texts as proof. There is a fundamental difference in being judgmental and in calling people to repent of sins the Bible calls them to repent of, in humility and love. I will submit to the same standard I apply to anyone else. I am a dirty sinner, only justified by Christ, in daily repentance for my sins. That is different than blatantly living in sin and excusing it. Once again, I would rather be guilty of proof-texting than of ignoring the clear teaching of scripture because it makes people in our postmodern culture squeamish.

Adam Shields-

"I believe (although this is conjecture based on other sermons and knowing the way that Andy works) that conviction of sin is a process. So if someone acknowledges a sin then working through that sin first before confronting with a sin that they do not acknowledge both builds credibility with the person and allows for further conviction of sin. In the Christian life, the Holy Spirit does not convict us of sin all at once but over time."

I understand what you are saying, but then why did Andy point out the sin of adultery to them?

@Rick,

Because he thought they understand the sin of adultery. They did not repent of it at the time, but they did understand that they were sinning. At least that is how I understand the story.

"Yes, I believe they could be a Christian under those circumstances, thank God."

and

"What I hate is seeing people give up the fight because some punk (not necessarily talking about Stanley with this yet, hopefully he never will get this far) tells them to give up the fight because God loves them just how they are."

I know...I know how you feel. too.
Often times it seems that years of work is undone by another who says, "G-d loves you just as you are." when what they should have said is, "G-d takes you just as you are, and then transforms you towards a new person that reflects the holiness of G-d."

For me, the tension of between Mercy, Grace, and Truth is how it's applied.
Truth carelessly handled can be a two-handed mace wielded with devastating destruction on people's fragile spirit when caught in the webs of their favorite sin, or other entanglements that the world lays in wait for us if we are unaware.
And of course, Mercy and Grace without truth is much like hyponatremia, or hyperoxia.

Anyway, I was quite suspicious that you might be a moralist masquerading as a follower of G-d...I had to be sure.
So, while I have your attention, I am compelled to ask for your forgiveness as my initial suspicions of your position made me a little to blunt.

In my church "God loves you the way you are" is always quoted by teachers in Sunday School. However, when I see these kids hitting each other, using foul language, pulling a chair out from under the opposite sex, etc., I tell them God loves you but he doesn't love what you're doing, and you know what, neither do I. You don't hurt people, a sin, God's biggie commandment, and if you don't understand you don't physically go after someone than you don't come into my class until you learn. Some kids leave until they're dragged back, always, by their parents. Active homosexuals don't belong in Church until they do as God commands, stop the sin. God will take them with him if they stop the sin, that's his true love. God will leave those behind who love their sin more than him. Kids see two men in church as active homosexuals, arms around each other, etc., they get the picture that if the church allows this while saying it's a sin, the church is lying because it's welcoming the sin, the church's great sin, because the kids as adults will pay back the church by leaving as soon as they can. We will lose them. Yes, known adulterers aren't welcomed either.

I have enjoyed reading all your posts since they perfectly illustrate what I think Andy Stanley was asking us as believers to grapple with. That is the "tension that exists between grace and truth". I believe that Christ embodied grace and truth perfectly, and I do find it a peculiar difficulty to live out grace and truth in relationship to others in a way that glorifies Him. This difficulty is a reality for all believers whether or not they are aware of it. I have wrestled with God regarding when to speak truth into the lives of others and how to do so with a humble, gracious spirit of love. I appreciate all of the posts and your views on this issue. Thank you all for being willing to speak from your hearts.

@sheerahkahn,

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear things up. Anonymous blog posts are notorious for keeping motives of the heart covered. I think if you knew me or sat in my classes you wouldn't feel that I am an overwhelming moralist. I believe in using the law to expose sin, but that the law is always supposed to drive us to the cross. The major problems with Christians typically involve an overemphasis on either law or grace...I don't think the two are in tension like Stanley said, because they are reconciled in Jesus on the cross...that is why the cross, and the full Gospel...must be central. The jury is obviously still out, but my concern is that Stanley is tilting too far to the grace side and minimizing the truth.

Original Anna, you wrote: "Active homosexuals don't belong in Church until they do as God commands, stop the sin. God will take them with him if they stop the sin, that's his true love." I get where you're coming from, I really do. But you're wrong. Sinners belong in church, repentant or otherwise. It is in the church, in the community of the people of God, where sinners experience the grace that they need to gain victory over sin! How are they possibly going to stop sinning if they are blocked from access to the preaching of the Gospel in the Church, whether it be gathered for worship, or scattered among homes, neighborhoods, and workplaces?

You can't tell active homosexuals, "Sorry, you're not welcome here. Come back when you get your act together." That'd be like a hospital telling sick people, "Sorry, you're not welcome here. Come back when you get better!" If you're going to take that position, then why single out homosexuals? Why not keep active gluttons from church? I've seen a few obese pastors at the pulpit. Why not keep active gossipers from church? You KNOW there's a whole bunch of them out there in church each week. Sometimes they hide their gossip in the form of "sharing prayer requests"!

Now, I agree, we must preach against sin. We must be clear that sinful behavior is hurtful to ourselves, to others, and ultimately to God. We must preach a vision of God's holiness, and of the life that it is possible for us to live by his grace. When we preach that God loves us just as we are, we must continue by adding that he loves us too much to leave us where we are. But how are they going to hear that message IF THEY'RE NOT AT CHURCH?!?!? How are they going to stop sinning IF THEY'RE NOT AT CHURCH?!?!?! No, they shouldn't be in positions of leadership. But EVERYONE belongs at Church!!

You must have forgotten that there is instruction in the bible to put some people out of the church and to disassociate with some believers until they repent of (turn away from) willful sin. God's word (instruction) is always, the way of man leads to death whether he calls it grace, mercy, kindness, goodness or any other nice word!

God's word (instruction) is always right, but the the way of man leads to death whether he calls it grace, mercy, kindness, goodness or any other nice word!

Randy Parlor, that is a good point and I appreciate the balancing perspective. But to that I would add some words of caution: First, putting someone out of church because of willful sin should always be the last resort, and only after a Spirit-led, prayer-immersed process of ministering to the church member and loving them and encouraging them to turn away from sin. It must never be done in the front end, with an attitude that communicates, "You don't belong here until you stop sinning." Remember, not everyone accepts homosexuality as a sin, so it will take time and patience to work through that.

Second, the idea that "Active homosexuals do not belong in church until they stop sinning," can give the impression that one believes that God will not accept us until we get our act together; which, of course, is untrue! He first accepts us, and THEN he provides us with the power for us to get our act together. I'm sure Original Anna did not mean to give the former impression. But I think it's important for us to be more careful with how we say things, sometimes. We need to think carefully not just about WHAT we say, but HOW what we say gets heard by others.

Interestingly, as TracyV pointed out, the comments that have been posted in response to this article as well as to Mr. Stanley's sermon serve as an apt illustration of what he was trying to say: It is very hard to live with the tension between grace and truth! Most of us here--including myself!--have the tendency to relieve that tension by favoring one or the other. That's why it's so important for us to listen to each other's perspectives and to be willing to live in that tension no matter how difficult it is. After all, if it was easy, there'd be no need for us to depend on the Holy Spirit!

@Sheer, with regard to sin and repeated falls into temptation, I love this little story from the Desert Fathers. I think it describes the journey of repentance well:

A young monk said to the great ascetic Abba Sisoes: “Abba, what should I do? I fell.” The elder answered: “Get up!” The monk said: “I got up and I fell again!” The elder replied: “Get up again!” But the young monk asked: “For how long should I get up when I fall?” “Until your death,” answered Abba Sisoes. —Sayings of the Desert Fathers

@Bill, good thoughts. There's a difference in how we handle the situation with someone who is just coming to or exploring Christian faith and coming to church (who as you pointed out, may not yet be convicted a certain sin is, in fact, sin) and someone who knows the truth and falls in spite of strong convictions against what they're doing. It takes discernment to know what kind of spiritual medicine to apply. We don't want to lead babes in Christ and deeply remorseful mostly- involuntary backsliders to despair by overly harsh discipline, but we do want to help those who are being powerfully tempted to minimize their sin and relax their defenses against repeating it to be aware of how it is threatening to destroy their communion with God and others. In the latter case, a more strict discipline is in order. All the more true when the offender has had a position of leadership and responsibility in the flock. Then, for the sake of the flock, I think it is important to discipline the offender and remove them from positions of influence in the church (and make sure the discipline is known as wide as the offense is).

It seems to me a lot of damage can occur, though, when there is a blanket "one-size-fits-all" approach to the same sin, even when the actual sinners vary greatly in their needs in terms of what will help them to get beyond their sin (and in terms of their influence on the rest of the flock).

Karen,

I've heard something similar to that, but not from a "Christian" source.

When I was in the police academy we were going through holds, take-downs, and restraints, i.e. arm-locks, finger-locks, wrist-locks, and how to pass a violent person out if all else fails.
Anyway, part of the drill was to break free to see if our "opponent" namely the other recruit had a good hold on us.

No one wanted to look like the jackass who couldn't be held down so we all "succumbed" rather quickly. And to put it frankly, the holds we were applying to each other wouldn't restrained a squalling baby.

The instructors got mad, and jumped in.
Suddenly, there were gasps of pain, and immediate surrenders.
For me, I got thrashed a couple of times, and I was pretty well pissed when I went up against the lead instructor. So I put everything into it, forced him to use a little bit more force than what I think he wanted to apply, but as far as I was concerned, I'm going to take him down.
But he gets me, and I'm thinking, "that's it I'm done." so I surrender...he tells me "No give up!"
I tried even harder, but I just didn't have it in me anymore as I was exhausted, and finally he releases me. He lectures us all in that by being easy on each other we're only making things worse. We have to be as hard and difficult as a criminal because when that time comes and we have to grapple with the bad guy our lives will depend on us learning how to use the holds correctly. "No give up!"

Still sticks with me today, "no give up." That's all we ever heard in that cqc class, "no give up!"

I am a fan of Andy. It did seem that he was saying that adultery disqualified this man from service, but practicing homosexuality would not.

Josh Hunt
Good Questions Have Groups Talking

I'm convinced no one would give this story a second thought if the guy had been straight and had an affair with another woman.

How many of you actually attend Northpoint? It seems to me that a lot of people are unfairly judging Andy and our church based on a portion of a sermon that is 1 in an 8-part series addressing what Chritianity is really about. I sat through the entire series and never once was thrown by the illustration in question, because the point of the message was not if Andy thought homosexuality was a sin but that he thought truth and grace can be messy. I got out of the series that instead of rushing straight to truth and condemning all sinners to hell OR instead of running straight to grace and saying sin is acceptable, we must walk in the messiness of when grace meets truth. This is a tough topic to address when discussing any sin, albeit adultury, homosexuality, lying, cheating, etc, and I applaud our church for "going there". God's ultimate commandment (should you believe) is to love one another. When in a messy situation, ask yourself what does love require of me? Sometimes there is no good way to solve the tension between grace and truth; but I,for one, was moved. I have been angry at my sister for attending church while she was unmarried and pregnant. I wanted to hold her accountable. I wanted her church to throw her out. But instead they gave her a baby shower. I was furious, and I allowed my righteousness to turn me bitter. Andy's sermon helped me forgive her and ask her forgiveness for the wedge I created in our relationship based on my truths. In this situation, I chose grace moreso than truth, because the truth was pushing us further apart. She knows that i think what she did was wrong but she also knows that i still love her despite the messiness in our family now. I also feel that my sin has now lifted. I feel free again. I don't need Andy to condemn me each Sunday. I am smart enough to condemn myself.

P.S. And for the record, a host team member is a volunteer that opens doors, says welcome, and passes out cards. They also help people find seats when we are crowded and pass out the offering buckets. To my knowledge this is not related to family ministry or leadership in any way. I don't even know if church membership is even required to volunteer to say hello to people in the mornings.

P.S. S. Part of me hopes our church doesn't issue a statement about whether we are for or against homosexuality. I like living in the mess, and I love that I attend a church for unchurched people. I am still a work in progress, but I accept that in me and am learning to accept that in others.

I believe everything that we have comes from God alone. This includes our body and our very being, therefore we must take good care of it. We must be good stewards. It is not by accident that we are created human beings, ma or woman. We must honor, praise and worship Him. HE is the true lover of our soul.

Stanley is more worried about attendance and not offending anybody than he is of the speaking the truth. The water downed message is nothing new it's been happening for years Stanley is just another messenger.

I posted several comments on another web site, Stand Up for The Truth, on this topic and what I said was akin to many of the posts here which quoted scripture on how to deal with sin in the church. So it is refreshing to read the comments that agree with, in my opinion, the clear teaching of scripture. But I would like to bring up another related problem I see in the church and that is compromise. Comments I've heard from many of the mega-church preachers, namely, Andy Stanley, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller to name a few, has been a watered down version of New Testament teachings. They all say they believe the Bible is inspired and infallible, and use proof texts to support what they are saying, but spin the texts to make them agree with their opinions. I haven't listened to this 8 part series of Stanley's Grace and Truth and I don't plan to, but why would it take 8 messages to tell somebody how to get saved. It may, on the other hand, take 8 messages to muddy up the Bible and confuse people about what scripture says. What I haven't heard from these churches are messages on Regeneration, Deliverance, Holiness, and Separation. We are to go into the world and preach the gospel, but we are not to bring the world and it's beliefs and values into the church. When you do, you wind up with churches like the Catholic church and Protestant churchs like the ELCA and other similar churches. These Mega-churches are getting very close to becoming like those churches and those churches got like that because they compromised the teachings of scripture on doctrine and sin. The Apostle Paul warned us about the destructiveness of allowing false doctrine and sin to come into the church and compared it to leaven. He said "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." It just takes a little yeast to cause the whole lump of dough to rise and change it's shape and texture. In the same way, it just takes a little compromise on doctrine or sin to cause the whole church to change for the worse. Paul says to purge out or take out the old leaven. So, let's obey the Bible and not compromise with the world.