I'm actually glad that he changed his mind on that.

I start to worry (about myself) when I find out that there's something that he and I agree on.

Obama needs to rock the boat - it's what he's really good at. His whole MO is divide and conquer. He divides by black vs white, by gay vs straight, by states vs feds, by men vs women, by business vs government, by poor vs rich, by Arab vs Jew, and on and on and on and on........ Is there anything he has ever brought unity with? I don't know of any. A vote for Obama is a vote for a country divided. Skye is correct - this is a trap - if it's mishandled - it could create thousands of pages of federal regulations against Christians. I'm posting anonymously - becasue this regime is frightful to me - and I've done nothing wrong.

“This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.” “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Tit 3:8-11 NIV)

"...the church lost the legal battle over same-sex marriage decades ago. How, you ask? Because the church was silent when state after state passed no-fault divorce laws. These bills essentially removed the state from any interest in preserving or defining marriage. No-fault divorce laws defined marriage as an agreement between two individuals that may be entered or dissolved as the individuals desire without state interference or prejudice."

and there it is in a basket, all prettied up and gorgeous looking...so now, that we all are focused, let us look at the crop of our seeds, and the words of Nietzsche,
________________________________________________________
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"

As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter.
Have you lost him, then? said one.
Did he lose his way like a child? said another.
Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated?
Thus they shouted and laughed.

The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers."
________________________________________________________

The American Church so focused on everyone else's morality that never once did it looked at itself and say, "we must first remove the plank from our eye, before we can remove the speck from their eye."

When we behave as if G-d is dead, or, just words in a book that are read aloud on Sunday, and his commandments mean nothing to us the rest of the week, then he might as well be dead.

And this...well, look around you...why are you surprised?

Around 90% of the US population subscribes to a religion. About 80% to some variety of Christianity. Obama hasn't lost the religious vote. Any politician who does that isn't viable. He has "lost" what he never had: the vote of the religious right. You can recognize the religious right, whether Christian, Muslim, or of some other religion, because they want to enshrine their religious restrictions into law, and from their apocalyptic view of what happens when people around them don't follow their religious rules. The previous respondent is right that marriage equality is just one such issue. So was divorce. So was prohibition. So are blue laws.

Didn't George Bush do the exact same thing with his trying to pass a constitutional amendment? 1. Try to win the conservative vote. 2. Spark older, traditional church people to vote for him. 3. Avoid the focus on the economy and 2 wars. Change the name and the story is the same.

I normally comment under a pseudonym, but I've decided to comment today by my real name because I fear no administration or "regime." My life is in the hands of him who raises up kings and brings them down.

I've been thinking about this the last couple of days, and it was interesting to read Skye's post this afternoon, which comes to many of the same conclusions I've arrived at. One thing I would add: even though Mr. Obama knows he's already lost the religious vote, and even though he knows this announcement will energize his own base, he has to know that this ALSO has the potential to energize the Republican base. If Mr. Obama loses this election, it will not be because of Mr. Romney. It will be because the Republican base was energized enough to vote AGAINST Mr. Obama. He's just given that base a major reason to do so.

So, I suspect that Mr. Obama realizes that he is taking a calculated risk that could backfire. But he is counting on the energy from his base to offset the energy from the Republican base, considering the fact that his base WANTS to like him; which is not the case, necessarily, with Mr. Romney. And, of course, as Skye pointed out, anything that takes the focus off of the economy is a good thing for him.

I, too, hope Republicans, and specifically social conservatives, don't take the bait. I do not see same-sex marriage as Biblical. BUT, as a political conservative, I believe in limited government; and so I am very uncomfortable with the idea of a state or federal government defining what, in my view, is primarily a RELIGIOUS institution. If I lived in North Carolina, I would've voted against the amendment for that reason. I agree with Skye that protecting religious liberty must become our primary focus.

No, Bush didn't do the exact same thing. He immediately opposed same sex marriage when the Conn. and Mass Supreme Court ruled that same-sex marriages were legal, and the vast majority of the American citizens opposed same-sex marriage then, as they do now. President Bush opposed it, sorry.
In addition, President Bush banned partial-birth abortions, and one of the first things that obama did was to legalize it.

holly, you're right. Whether the president has a D or an R after their name, too often it feels like it's just the same story repeated administration after administration.

Kelly, I think the point holly is trying to make is not that they held the same positions, but that they operate by the same rules of the "political game." I'm still waiting for a politician to rise up someday who will stop playing these games, and actually run and govern with conviction, integrity and, yes, respect for opposing points of view. Maybe that's asking too much of a politician...

Or...maybe that's asking too much of us as voters. As the saying goes, we get the politicians that we deserve.

Yes, that is what i meant. There is a political game in much of this, from both sides. I believe heavily in the separation of church and state- where religious beliefs and religious talking points are not used as political pawns. I am wary of Christians pushing Christian values onto a government and people, when it offends those who are not and destroys the name of Jesus-in my opinion. Christians who don't believe in separation of church and state- will they feel the same when when Muslim morals and values are encoded into law that do not agree upon? However, I do long for moral, upstanding leaders, as Bill said, that lead out of moral convictions and not merely playing games w people Case in point, I live and work in a certain country in Africa. In this country I work in, the majority of people are Christian or Catholic. On computer sceens in offices of Ministers, and high level government leaders are daily bible verses, and crosses hung in their office. However, corruption, mismanagement, and embezzelment are major problems and impede or rob development for their citizens. When will their be a connection between church and state? In the same note, I was talking to a brother from another African country where their leaders (heavily Christian) are making life unbearable to survive for their people, and he is praying for a revolution. Why a disconnect?

Well, back to the original subject ... I believe the first title to this blog included the words "and why Christians should not freak out," which was great because initially I freaked out a little. So thank you.

The best part of the post was that the church has lost its credibility on the sanctity of marriage when it didn't oppose "no fault divorce" and welcome remarried (and usually unrepentant) couples (i.e., people who were not legitimately divorced by Biblical standards) to participate in church leadership. It was at the point of "no fault divorce" that marriage was redefined to mean a man and a series of women; or a woman and a series of men and I am mystified when people think that same sex marriage is so much worse than that.

Close to 50 years ago my late ex-father-in-law, a church pastor, abandoned his family and ran off with the church organist, who also abandoned her family. Almost immediately he was somewhere else, pastoring again. It was heinous and has adversely affected 3 generations of his family (so far): numerous marriages; drug addicts; same-sex relationships; attempted suicide and one "successful" suicide. How in the world can same-sex marriage do more damage than divorce?

The real sorrow here is how we have turned our back on God. To add to that sorrow Obama said that "his faith" influenced his decision. The truth is, same-sex people can and do get married, unbiblically divorced people can and do get remarried, but they will never be marriages in the eyes of God.

Really, God has proprietary rights on the term marriage. It is defined clearly in Mt 19.4ff. There really isn't such a thing as same-sex marriage. Whatever noise comes from Washington, the press, and the pulpits...the emperor has no clothes.

"Really, God has proprietary rights on the term marriage. It is defined clearly in Mt 19.4ff. There really isn't such a thing as same-sex marriage. Whatever noise comes from Washington, the press, and the pulpits...the emperor has no clothes."

You're right, which is why Obama is leaving it to the states...and there is a reason.

Marriage is a religious term, and if the government were to enact legislation in that regards, i.e. redefining the term "marriage" then they run afoul of the First Amendment.

So, by throwing this to the states, Obama, without getting his own hands messy with this...allows the states to self-determine. Words are words, cheaply stated.

So, now, the ground of battle is at the state level, and not at the national level...ergo, Obama, and the rest of the political parties can "hover" above this topic and tack to the political wind whichever way it blows.

Republican or Democrat, doesn't matter because they're two sides of the same coin...they're both a political front for Wall Street and Big Business.
All we're doing is picking the flavor du jour.

I can't figure out why there is even any discussion of this. It's not as though everyone didn't already know that Obama had no problem with homosexual activity to begin with. Would I be shocked if Romney also endorsed homosexual marriage? No. If he can have an openly homosexual 'out and proud' member of his advisory team, he too could obviously care less. The church hardly cares anymore; we've had it rammed down our throats for so long, we're exhausted.

"But the courts are saying "Sorry, too late." The state abdicated that role years ago and the legal ground is weak ..." The courts have their own agenda which uses such logic when it suits them and flips it over when it doesn't. If the courts, or a particular judge wish to create a new 'right' such as abortion, they just do it without legal precedent. If they don't want bad law changed, they simply quote 'legal precedent'. When our legal system is so heavily populated with unrighteous people, unrighteousness will be the law of the land.

The church needs to get out of the business of working to deny equal rights to citizens because they claim that God told them to do it. Slavery also appears in the Bible, along with genocide and child abuse. Are they also proprietary institutions of God? Many have argued that way, and lost.

If marriage belongs to God as defined in the Christian bible, there are a lot of non-marriage marriages around the world.

"When our legal system is so heavily populated with unrighteous people, unrighteousness will be the law of the land."

Oh, come on Brittany, lets not be coy...here, let me help you finish this thought of yours because it's familiar to me through my research into dominionism, reconstructionism, theonomy, Kingdom Now Theology...so this is the complete version of your statement...

"When our legal system so heavily populated with unrighteous people, unrighteousness will be the law of the land. *Therefore, to bring righeousness to the law of the land, we must have righteous people in the legal system.*"

Now, comes the reality check...

"For all have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of G-d."

You see, for thousands of years this complaint of yours has prompted the "Utopian" quests in which like minded people seek a new start, in a new land to prove that "if we only followed these precepts to the letter of the Law...VOILA!...all would be right!"

So, I'll be idelicate as much as possible and be transparent...no, let me quote the bible...G-d says so much better...

"For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."

Or if not that, then psalms

"Lord, hear my prayer, listen to my cry for mercy;
in your faithfulness and righteousness/come to my relief.
Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you."

Therefore, our hope lies not in this world, but in Y'shua the messiah.

The legal system is what it is...and none of us should be surprised at it's lack of righteousness. All we're do is stand up, speak the words G-d gives us, and call them to be better than what they are.

Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people.

Obama siad he answered a direct question. I'd like to know his answer to this question: Is anal intercourse normal and healthy?

"Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people."

Brittany,

At the risk of repeating myself...

We, humans, which includes you as well...unless you're an extra-terrestrial alien from another world, are all drowning in a sea of unrighteousness.

And, historically, there never has been a righteous nation, and until Y'shua returns there never will be a righteous nation.

Why?

because to have a "righteous nation" that nation has to be populated by "righteous people" and the only way a people can be considered "righteous" is to be sinless.

Hence, the reason I quoted the following...

"For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."

"Lord, hear my prayer, listen to my cry for mercy;
in your faithfulness and righteousness/come to my relief.
Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you."

"For all have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of G-d."

No one is righteous, and thus no nation will be righteous, and therefore, by association, no legal system will be righteous.

How many gay people does God have to create before the church accepts that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and it's a part of God's plan for humanity? What should everyone in the church do today, right now? Allow gay people to get married and accept love just the way they God created love. Have faith in God's omniscience and omnipotence and let go and let God. I can hear God saying, "I got this one covered, trust me."

Sexual attraction is a soul characteristic and our soul is a part of God. Thus, I reasonably conclude it must be the intelligence of God at work. Gay people are ethical and moral people in every understanding of what it means to be human and ethical and moral, except they are attracted to the same gender. There are not only ministers who are gay, there are gay police, judges, congress people, military persons, clerks, athletes, teachers, accountants, sanitation workers, engineers, fire fighters, doctors, nurses, writers, lawyers, college professors, scientists, and did I say gay ministers, and they all really do love God and I believe God loves ethical and moral people! In every slice of humanity, in every race and every culture, in every language and on every continent, in the biggest cities and the smallest towns . . . wherever there are people, through all of recorded history, there are always a small percentage of gay people. This is the way God set up creation and I trust God's omnipotence.

I pray for all the gay young men & women who are taught a mixed message from the church. I pray for the countless number of Christians who are forced to lead two lives by obsolete church dogma that only hurts people. I pray for the downlow men who get married and live in the closet with secret lives to avoid judgment and persecution by their own brothers in Christ. I pray for their wives and children of these gay men who eventually always find out about their secret and are crushed. I pray for the people who still in 2012 do not realize that being gay is not a choice a man or a woman makes. I pray that people just realize that a part of God's creation (humankind) is just attracted to the same sex and that is just the way God set the whole thing up. I pray for the young men and woman who commit suicide and take their lives to avoid the pain & self-hate they hold for themselves because they were told by the church that they are bad people. Again, how many gay men and women does God have to create before we just accept it? I pray these young men and woman see them as God sees them, whole, perfect and with only love. I pray for all of the people who have been religiously and spiritually abused in the Name of Jesus. Please join me in this prayer, which I have been praying for years.

"I pray for the people who still in 2012 do not realize that being gay is not a choice a man or a woman makes."

Frank,
I've read your opinion twice, and so I'm going to reveal to you what.exactly.you.are.saying.

First, to address the quote...

Unless they are rape victims every human being on this planet gets to choose whom, and what they have sex with.
A man chooses to sleep with another man to have sex with is a choice he has made of his own volition, and without coercion from an outside source, which, by definition of his selection is a choice he has made.

But, I want to deal with the larger statement you have made which is what really grabbed my craw....

By you stating "he has no choice" strips all of us of our personhood, denies us our humanity, denies us our freedom of choice, denies us our free-will, denies us are entire being as both images of G-d, and a human beings.

In short Frank, what you have laid out in your appeal is that mankind is a slave to his passions, a slave to his desires, and if he so desires whatever he wants let him go unwarned, unrestrained, uncared for; And where ever his passion leads him, so be it, let him have his way because in your opinion we're all little more than dogs whose only concern is what and how we feed our passions and desires.

And so let us just ignore the five thousand years of military history I have on my bookshelves which speaks glowingly about man and his desires and passions left unfettered.

Why talk about that...because by your logic, it's all okay to do whatever we want to each other! Because, as you pointed out, it's who we are!

And while we're at it, let us ignore the bible's commentary, and G-d's viewpoint about how messed up mankind is with his unrestrained passions and desires. In fact, lets just toss G-d out while we're at it...oh wait, we've already done that!

So Frank, in what you thought was an appeal for acceptance of the true nature, and inevitability of human conceit was in fact a rather nasty personal attack on humanity, and may I add, a vicious and remarkably cruel commentary about mankind's position as little more than rabid dogs unworthy of any expectation or help from G-d.

sheerahkahn, thanks for sharing your opinions. My words were clear, your interpretation of what I said is a woeful misrepresentation of my thoughts & I disagree, I'll add you to my prayers. God bless.

Frank, many verses in the Bible say that the Holy Spirit can change us, and every believer can give their "story", of how their life has been changed. You are denying the power of the Holy Spirit if you say you cannot change. You can change! You have the power of the Holy Spirit in you now, if you are a believer! Many of us believe that Jesus is coming soon for believers. I know that I'll be praying for you, and I'm sure others will be too.

I come from many generations of alcoholics on both sides of the family, but I'm not going to let satan use me to sin against God. I CAN control my behavior with the help of the Holy Spirit. Try to find a good, biblical church that stands on the Word of God, and doesn't allow political correctness or the strrength of the gay/lesbian groups to change what the Word of God talks about very plainly in many places. Your eternal life depends on this, and we care about you and your eternal life. Don't give in to sin. You know in your heart that it is sin, if you are indwellt with the Holy Spirit.

Colossians chapter 3 says this:

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

"My words were clear, your interpretation of what I said is a woeful misrepresentation of my thoughts & I disagree,... I'll add you to my prayers. God bless."

Oh, I agree, your words are quite clear.

So, lets take a look at your words...

"How many gay people does God have to create..."

"This is the way God set up creation and I trust God's
omnipotence."

"that people just realize that a part of God's creation (humankind) is just attracted to the same sex and that is just the way God set the whole thing up."

Your words, not mine.

Now, here are G-d words...

Matt. 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

And what Law is Y'shua talking about?
Mosaic Law, all 633 of them, including that one annoying little chapter about unlawful sex acts for the Israelites...Leviticus 18 of which contains this:

"22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.".

Wait, hold on...we're not done here...so you Frank, by stating that G-d "created" homosexuality, and homosexuals now bring up a question that needs to be answered.

So, with your words, not mine, yours...this is the situation we are faced with...

Either

A: G-d is a capricious jerk who isn't worthy of our attention because he "created homosexuals and homosexuality" just because he can, but then turns around and outlaws what he made?

Or

B: you're so incredibly wrong the only thing more glaring would be the noon day sun in the high desert on a cloudless day.

We need to distinguish civil marriage and religious marriage, separate government sanctioned marriage from Christian marriage. Two ceremonies for Christians - one at the court house for govt. recognition, then Christians can have another religious ceremony.

Those of other faiths can then have their own religious ceremony if desired, those without faith don't need to have another ceremony. Many European countries operate this way. It's time for the US to do the same thing. Tony Campolo had a great article on this, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-campolo/a-possible-compromise-on-_b_826170.html

I would like to share 3 things: #1 I respect your right to disagree with me, #2 I am not trying to change your mind about any of this; #3 I apologize that it is long, there were so many issues raised. I am responding to this post with my beliefs are I am not seeking to debate anyone. I am responding with an open heart. People do not need to agree with me but I do request respect. The Bible says that God is Love. The Bible also states that we are created in the image and likeness of God. Finally, the Bible gives us dominion over the earth. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and we are all a part of God's plan for humanity. Everyone in the church should just accept gay people just the way they God created them and trust God. Let's have faith in God's omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence and let go and let God. I can hear God saying, "I got this one covered, trust me." I ask a very basic and a very important question to the comments that advocate the premise that opposes being gay because of the Bible. How do you explain your selective hermeneutics?

One must understand there are rules that must be followed when we read/interpret and apply the Bible to today's experiences. The field of Bible interpretation is called hermeneutics. A complete Hermeneutics must distinguish different types of literature in the bible. There are narrative, oracles, prophecies, wisdom and poetry. They are all interpreted and understood differently. One must use conventional rules of such types to interpret them and reflect on the appropriate literary devices such as language, date, authorships, and legendary stories. Then, we must also analyze text carefully in terms of myths, redactions and understanding the principles of contextualization and social stance. As we read Scripture, we recognize the key actors in the interpretive process – there are the author, the listener/reader and the community. Good hermeneutics will follow the interpretive process of text analysis, context analysis and community analysis. Most agree that it involves some obvious procedures. For one thing, the meaning of each word must be studied. This involves etymology, use, history, and resultant meaning. For another thing, the grammar, or relationship of the words to each other, must be analyzed. For a third thing, the context, immediate and remote, must be considered. Considering these three factors, it's the insincerity of the church about being gay I cannot agree with.

Selective hermeneutics is insincere. Jesus aptly shared how He felt about hypocrites. (Matthew 23 - A Warning Against Hypocrisy). Beyond all the division, disagreement and dogma, we know there is a truth Jesus stands for. Anyone who removes their head buried in the metaphorical sand has to find it ironic to notice how Jesus is used to condemn & divide people today when we was a liberal in a conservative society who was killed for his beliefs. The truth is that Jesus had no input of the Christian canon of control that developed after his death. Rev. Dr. Howard Thurman says to know Jesus, we have to know: 1. That He was Jewish; 2. He was poor; 3. He was a minority in the midst of the dominant Roman Empire & he was part of an oppressed group. Under this oppression, Jesus taught that we all have a connection to an indwelling God. He taught that the Kingdom of God is within us. Establishing God inside of us is the only spiritual resource we require. This offers endurance when our backs are against the wall. This is an intelligent understanding of God. Since God is the Source of power, empty rituals or dogma that dehumanizes people don’t make us spiritual. Dr. Thurman introduces us to Jesus before the church and Christianity. Jesus was not mean. Jesus was not judgmental and controlling. He did not teach hate. The church uses the Bible to advance an agenda that keeps society stuck in the past and ignores Scripture that is clear when it is inconvenient.

It's the hypocrisy about homosexuality that God is calling into the light for dialogues such as this one. The Word of God is always interpreted by woman/man. The current interpretation is always based upon socio-political cultural circumstances and experiences of the present historical time. God has been used as an excuse through history for the majority view to kill the minority time and time again. Our understanding of the Word of God has healed/evolved/grown throughout the millennia based upon mankind's understanding of justice and based on our intelligence. Intelligence evolves, thankfully for children, woman, slavery, desegregation. The Bible has some scary doctrine against all of these groups & my God, thankfully, the obsolete dogma can no longer be taught any more with any credibility. Hypocrisy is most definitely a conscious choice in my view and hypocrisy is the “sin” the church should focus on. See Matt 23. Wrong or right is for God to determine and every one of us is called to have a personal relationship with God, respect them & honor others. I choose to love people where they are. Jesus taught a gospel of love and acceptance. People can disagree about whether being gay is wrong or not and still respect each other’s path without using the government to restrict different paths. I choose to welcome all people to the church; my choice does not have to be imposed on anyone else. I just don’t understand why the loudest homophobic churches/ministers keep showing up with all these secret homosexual relationships. If it really were a choice, no one would choose to be gay in today’s hateful culture. Yet, there are, have always been & will always be gay people in every segment and culture in society. Omniscience is the all-knowing quality of God. Today we can accept that homosexuality is a part of the human experience. A small percentage of the people on the planet were created by God to live in monogamous same-gender relationships and that is God’s will. Our population increases exponentially and more and more people are seeking to publicly and peacefully live in peace in same gender relationships. It’s not the devil, lol, it’s God. I can hear God saying are you crazy trying to discourage this? Sexual orientation and attraction is a soul characteristic and no one chooses their basic physical attraction. Thus, I reasonably conclude it must be the intelligence of God at work.

Gay people are ethical and moral people in every understanding of what it means to be human and ethical and moral, except they are attracted to the same gender. There are not only ministers who are gay, there are gay police, judges, congress people, military persons, clerks, athletes, teachers, accountants, sanitation workers, engineers, fire fighters, doctors, nurses, writers, lawyers, college professors, scientists, and did I say gay ministers, and they all really do love God and I believe God loves ethical and moral people! In every slice of humanity, in every race and every culture, in every language and on every continent, in the biggest cities and the smallest towns . . . wherever there are people, through all of recorded history, there are always a small percentage of gay people. This is the way God set it up. Gay people work, they volunteer, they serve in the military and the government and they serve in every position in the church. Yes, there are gay people in every church; they are just forced to live a lie as a price to worship God in community. They have pride in their community, in their church and in their nation like everyone else. The question to ask is why does the world continue to force such a small number of people to live a lie in a world that is already over-populated? Seven billion of us are already killing the planet from overpopulation and overconsumption and we cannot destroy the Earth and continue to exist. I can hear God saying I gave you a mind, can you please use it? Marriage will not be destroyed by such a small percentage of the population given the right to live in peace, but the planet (and thus marriage) might just be saved.

The Word of God is always interpreted by woman/man through the lens of the current society. The current interpretation is always based upon socio-political cultural circumstances and experiences of the present historical time. Dr. King said that "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds." The majority view of many churches today is unjust and un-Godly. God has been used as an excuse through history for the majority view to kill the minority time and time again. Our understanding of the Word of God has healed/evolved/grown throughout the millennia based upon mankind's understanding of justice and based on our intelligence. As Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III stated this Sunday, "My brother, tell your brethren to LIVE their faith and not try to LEGISLATE their faith." ... "Gay people have NEVER been the enemy, and when we use rhetoric to suggest that they are the source of all our problems, we lie on God and cause tears to fall from the eyes of Christ." Blessings.

Frank, I'd like to respond to some of your thoughts. First, I do agree with you that the Church has not always been fair in the way we treat homosexuals. Too often we have "religiously and spiritually abused [homosexuals] in the Name of Jesus." Too often we have been like the Pharisees, thankful to God that we have our act together, and looking down on those horrible Publicans (homosexuals); when instead, we should have recognized that homosexuals are dealing with some pretty tough issues, and we should have been willing to enter with them into their pain and struggles and help them deal with these issues in a context of love and grace. So, yes, our history has not been very good, or very Christlike.

However, there are some points with which I disagree; and I ask you to hear me out and consider an alternate viewpoint:

(1) The solution to our past failure is NOT "[e]veryone in the church should just accept gay people just the way they (sic) God created them and trust God." That solution assumes that your interpretation of what the Bible teaches about homosexuality is the only valid one. But there are many intelligent, thoughtful Christian scholars, pastors, and lay people who have looked at the Biblical evidence seriously, and have come to different conclusions. Your solution comes across as saying that all of us who disagree with you should just shut up and do as you say, in order to atone for our injustices of the past. Now, I'm sure that's not what you intended to communicate; but you need to know that that's how it comes across to some of us, so don't be surprised if we push back.

(2) Second, your position seems to put a lot of stock in Genesis 1--where it witnesses constantly that what God created was good-- but seems to virtually ignore Genesis 3--where it witnesses that God's good creation has been marred by sin. The disobedience of mankind has brought about a curse. Thorns and thistles, pain in childbirth, and eventually death--these are all parts of creation, but they are not good. They are not right. They are not part of God's plan. Romans 1 seems to suggest that the presence of homosexuality in creation is (like thorns, pain, and death) also a sign of the corruption of creation. I realize that some interpret this passage differently, but those of us who interpret Romans 1 in this way have (in my opinion) solid Biblical evidence for doing so.

(3) You wrote the following statements: "Gay people are ethical and moral people in every understanding of what it means to be human and ethical and moral, except they are attracted to the same gender," and, "I believe God loves ethical and moral people!" But however ethical or moral a person may be is irrelevant. As sheerahkahn pointed out, the Bible is quite clear that NO ONE is ethical or moral enough for God. The good thing is that God's love for us is not based on how ethical or moral we are, but on the fact that he is our creator.

(4) Finally, you wrote: "[b]eing gay is not a choice a man or a woman makes." You're right, it's not. BUT practicing homosexuality IS a choice. And the ability to choose is what separates human beings from everything else in this world. We are not animals. We are human beings, created in the image of God, as you pointed out; and as human beings we can choose not to act on our own desires and instincts and attractions, and instead we can choose to act in harmony with the teachings of Scripture as best as we can understand them. I read something a while back--I wish I could remember where!--to the effect that if we satisfied every single desire we had, it would kill us. Yeah, I know, we're all going to die anyway...but doing it this way would be much faster. Everyone, at some point, chooses not to satisfy certain desires because they recognize that those desires, if left unchecked, will destroy us.

Having said all that, I recognize that this is a complex issue, where thoughtful people have reached different conclusions; and that is one of the reasons for why I don't think any government, whether it be at the state or the federal level, has any business defining what "marriage" is. And Tony Campolo's position from the article that Nancy linked to seems like a reasonable solution to the question of same-sex marriage.

Thank you for your understanding and agreeing the church is not nice to gay people & much appreciation for disagreeing with me with respect Bill. I believe the day has come for the intelligent, thoughtful Christian scholars, pastors and lay people you spoke of to reevaluate teachings about homosexuality. I believe this is happening today. I celebrate that on the day of the republican primary in the state of NC, thirty-nine percent of the people stood up and said no more. One day soon, our courts are going to reject these discriminatory constitutional amendments and not allow a majority to restrict the lives of a minority. It is difficult to read a person’s heart in a dialogue like this and it was not my intent to tell anyone to shut up and do as you I. In fact, I began the post you refer to & state that #1. I respect your right to disagree with me, #2. I am not trying to change your mind about any of this; . . . I am responding with an open heart. I meant that when I said it and if you felt I was telling people to shut up, I apologize.

As long as gay couples have access all the same gov't benefits, tax deductions, social privileges and political rights as married people and laws are enforced that protect us from getting beat, I agree that the proposal that government stay out of defining marriage is a good start. History shows that the separate but equal doctrine does not work and my God expects more from us than to just tolerate another. I just think the church has a bigger mission on the earth if it wants God to remain relevant. I know that no one can force the church to accept, embrace and love gay people. Yet, as we see today, the more the church forces conservative ecclesiastical doctrine that dehumanizes people through the political process (woman’s rights, equal protection, aid to the poor, health care, etc.), the more people are alienated from the church. I believe God is in all chaos just as and the Spirit of God hovered over the empty, dark waters in the beginning. I know that one day very soon, the church will no longer be able to use the government to enforce outdated doctrine becuase the church itself is not able to convince many of its own people its postion is correct, ethical and moral. There are gay people in every church and as a group that has been treated poorly; God is using men like me to call this into the light.

I beleive we cannot separate God from ethics, even when we interpret the Bible. If theology can never evolve to condone being gay, what are the foreseeable effects and viable alternatives of this conclusion? People grow up in a world where they are told they are apart from God and never really learn to love themselves. A person attracted to the same sex is gift of human life from God and in many bchurches today, there seems to be the following choices if, let say a gay man for our dialogue, wants to live approved:
1. he gives his life to Christ, never misses church, prays, begs God, prays, confesses, gets counseling, prays & pretends he is not gay;
2. He lives the way he was created in a relationship with one man and lives in sin;
3. He lives a life with no physical/sexual relationship with another human being & grows old alone;
4. He gets married and lives on the DL to satisfy his natural desires;
5. He doesn't live on DL, gets married even though he's not physically attracted to a woman like other men & deprives this lady of a real sexual relationship with a man who is able to offer her this.
6. He believes what he was taught in the church & at some point, can’t even accpet himself & he commits suicide. (or drugs, addiction, etc. and self-destruction).

None of these alternatives can be God’s will. I believe that acceptance is the solution If you have never befriended a gay couple in a committed relationship or really opened your heart to men and woman who are gay, I suggest you try this without trying to fix them. Maybe just have dinner at their house once in a while and be with another human being with an open heart and mind. You may see that gay people don’t practice being gay any more than a heterosexual could practice being straight. People who play the piano practice scales because they make a choice to learn the piano and athletes practice their respective sport because they make a choice to excel. Gay people are gay, we don't have to practice. Thankfully, the day has come where more and more people are realizing this truth.

The issue may be complex yet I know the solution is simple. I see this happening as more and more denominations are willing to embrace the creative tension around this issue, stop avoiding the truth that they all have gay members and adopt policies that are gay inclusive. Thanks again for your respect and sharing your views. Sometimes men have to just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect and let God work it all out.

Frank,
First off, and this will go a long way to this two way communication is that you should assume my level of knowledge of the bible is at least equal if not superior to yours...why do I say that...because I'm extending to you that same level of assumption.
Hence, notice the way I am reasoning with you?
It is because I am "assuming" you have a equal level of knowledge, or perhaps better of the bible than I do. If you haven't noticed, look at how I'm "appealing" to your intellect.

Secondly, homosexuality is a sin. Period. End of statement.

Third, and last point I want to emphasize: Our discussion, as I see it, is limited to the subject of Christians caught in the snare of fornication be it homosexual or heterosexual.
I am not addressing people outside the Church, i.e. non-Christians because they are children of the world, and not of G-d.

And just so you and I are both clear on this...I am debating/disagreeing with you because you are wrong, and need to be corrected. And the only way that can happen is for you to think beyond your own world view, and get you thinking about G-d's world view.

With that, my purpose here is that I'm hoping/relying on two things:

1: That I get you to see G-d is holy. He's not to be taken lightly, and certainly not to be ignored or causally dismissed because it conflicts with our world view; And his word, regardless of how we all like to slice, dice, and serve it hot or cold is true.
If G-d's word is not true then we're just wasting our time, and we might as well go out in the world and live it up.

and

2: That people reading this, the lurkers, come to realize that any form of sexual contact for Christians outside the bounds of G-d's definition of marriage, be it homosexuality and/or heterosexuality is fornication. A sin. And that continuing in that sin puts a road block between the believer and G-d.

So with that out of the way, and if you made it this far I have one issue with you that hopefully will slap your conscience awake...I noticed you write this phrase a lot which I find rather insulting...

"Gay people are ethical and moral people in every understanding of what it means to be human and ethical and moral, except they are attracted to the same gender."

Lets establish something here...there is no such thing as "Gay people."
They are people, first and foremost.
They are human beings.
They are not "Gay."
They're just people.
Calling them anything else denies them their humanity, and strips them of their dignity as persons, as reflections of G-d. This goes for Christians and non-Christians involved with homosexuality.

Also, ethical and moral is not part of this discussion, and the reason for that is none of us, Christian or non-Christian is moral or ethical.
Oh we, as a species, may make sounds and noises in that regard, but our actions speak much louder than our words. And so far, as a species we haven't even gotten to the point of being "somewhat okay" much less advancing to "ah, we're kind of decent."

If you are reading this, know that I believe God loves gay people. Everyone does not have to agree being gay is OK, but today there are many Spirit-filled, holy, ethical and intelligent people, including Christians who are both gay and not gay, who don't believe that being gay is a sin anymore. If you are reading this blog and:

1. IF YOU ARE GAY, I believe God loves you and lives in you and God did not create you to be an outsider. You are special and you are a child of God. The Bible is the Word of God AND the Bible is also an ancient document redacted exclusively by privileged men. The first 5 books of the Bible had 4 different authors with very different social and theological agendas. Many of these agendas are ancient and were shaped by a different world with different priorities. Reasonable people today with contemporary data do not all continue to believe the Bible and God intended to forbid homosexuality for all eternity. History has overruled traditional teachings from the Bible that violate human rights time and time again.

2. IF YOU ARE GAY and you have prayed, you have cried and begged God and you are still attracted to the same gender, it's OK. God loves you and so do a lot of other people. We do not have to take our lives or live a lie or hate ourselves with self-destructive behaviors any longer. If you are gay, I love you.

3. IF YOU ARE GAY, today there are churches that are inclusive and affirming and ordain ministers who are both gay and not gay today. These churches and ministers will love you with the love of God just as you are and won’t try to fix you. These churches appreciate that heterosexual people alone can’t have final authority about being gay because they don’t understand it. We don’t have to allow people who won’t even try to understand homosexuality to tell us what it is like to be gay any more. My gay brothers and sisters, we don’t have to support our own repression any more. Visit and support churches that affirm gay people are whole.

4. IF YOU ARE NOT GAY and Christian and don’t agree with me, that’s OK too. Please allow God to speak directly to gay people for a generation & let us determine our destiny in peace. We know you think gay people make a choice. However, people who aren’t gay cannot reasonably expect to conclude being gay is a decision any more. Why? Because you are not gay! We know the Bible and we know we are gay. Can we just embrace the tension together without you trying to fix us from today forward? Since you are not gay, it doesn’t make sense for you to define our attributes any longer.

5. IF YOU ARE NOT GAY, can you also please stop passing laws that make gay people feel less than human? Even if you are not gay, you can support legislation that gives everyone the same legal, financial and social rights when it comes to marriage. Marriage is both a religious rite and a lawful contract that grants rights. Can you please stop restricting universal lawful rights in order to defend personal religious rites?

6. IF YOU ARE NOT GAY, please also stop tolerating people who mistreat us. Please help bring an end to teen suicides and bullying. If you hear a derogatory term or see someone mistreating a person who appears gay, please speak up and stop them. Even if you are against being gay, this does not seem to justify allowing the cruelty to continue. This really seems like the Christian thing to do, even if you are not gay, don’t you think?

Finally for everyone, please know that in the totality of the human experience today, if God does happen to still have a concern about homosexuality in 2012, I imagine it is probably like # 179 on God's current "To Do List” & there are bigger concerns to pray about that we can agree upon today. Blessings & Amen.

"...who don't believe that being gay is a sin anymore."

Frank,
You are contradicting the bible, and even your writing is singing anchors away...it is that obvious.

/sigh

Herein is the problem you are confronted with Frank, and it's a monumental problem you, not me, but you, Frank, the guy at the other CRT, is going to have to decide on...

Is the bible the word of G-d?

You were specifically directed here to confront and answer that question...and this answer you must decide is between you and G-d.

So, the conundrum in your walk with G-d is this...

Either G-d is who he says he is, and thus, his revelation of himself expressed through the bible is true, AND therefore, trustworthy, thereby encouraging you to follow him, and HIS MORAL COMPASS, HIS ETHICAL STANDARD, and to come to a point in your walk with G-d that you are faithful in obedience and trust regardless of your predilection to the contrary which identifies you as a HUMAN BEING, sorry, not a "gay person" a human being;

OR

You do not trust the G-d revealed in the bible, and feel that the bible needs to be "adjusted"which allows you to be who you are, just as you are for all eternity smothered in the covers of what you call an all accepting, all loving, all encompassing deity who has no requirement other than that you love everyone and everything just as they are, regardless of how mean, or nasty they are, and as long as you follow YOUR MORAL COMPASS, YOUR ETHICAL STANDARD.

Your choice that you will make in this is that you will choose between YHWH of the bible, or the echo board you have created based on names in the bible.

Your choice.
I will not tell you which to choose, or which, as it seems to me, you have chosen already...but this is your choice and when we stand before G-d it is you who will be answering for your choice, not me. I will not be part of your equation other than that you were brought here to read the truth, and I did as I was told.

My part in this is done.