I think there are three problems here:

1. First, a matter of obedience: God has commanded his believers to gather together weekly to worship him (Heb 10:25; cf. 1 Cor 16:2; Acts 20:7). This command is not optional if the pastor is on sabbatical and has a better idea.

2. Second, a matter of ability: can the pastor actually achieve what he intends to? Remember, this pastor is on sabbatical, something most people (churched or unchurched) get to experience, so it's unlikely that he can every truly enter into their experience, despite his good intentions. If the pastor truly wants to understand how non-Christians live, I suggest that he ditch the sabbatical (and salary), and “work 50-60 hours a week…in a non-Christian environment” for three months.

3. Third, a matter of misunderstanding: But the biggest problem here is the pastor’s mistaking the locus of, and source of power for, his ministry: it’s not his personal experience (“It’s true because I have lived it”) but Christ's incarnation (“It’s true because Jesus has lived it”).
The pastor doesn’t need to enter into the experience of what it means to be without God, as Christ has already done that on the cross, when he took on the sin of the world: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46).
The pastor doesn’t need to avoid church only to experience the power of God anew when he goes back to work/church. Christ has already done that in his resurrection (Rom 1:3-4). All the pastor needs to do is to tell his people what Christ has done; that is all, that is enough.

Finally, to Pastor Sandlin I say, “Have a great sabbatical! And get back to church.”

I'll see Greg's three problems (assuming in #2 he means sabbaticals are something most people DO NOT get to experience) and raise him one:

Scaramanga writes: "And can you remember what it's like to live as a disciple of Christ when it's not your job?" If one is a citizen of the Kingdom, it's his job to be a disciple. Being a disciple is not what a church pays you to do. Being a disciple is what Christ directs you to be.

"When was the last time you understood what it was like to work 50-60 hours a week, and then come to church on Sunday to hear you should devote more of your time to volunteering at church?"

Hmm, depends on the mindset of the individual. If they're doing volunteer work at the church because "I'm doing if for the lord!" Well, that's all well and fine, but that's what I say when I don't feel like volunteering at the church, "[sheer] can you fill in this week, we really need someone to...[fill in need]"
Yeah, I can do it...once, but that's me telling myself "Don't be lazy, G-d bails me out, I can help someone else out by bailing them out."

"And can you remember what it's like to live as a disciple of Christ when it's not your job?"

Living as a disciple of Y'shua is a 24/7/365(+1 for leap years), and if it isn't...time to take that sabbatical...and by sabbatical I mean leaving the church all together.

As for Mr. Sandlin, perhaps he should spend his time during sabbatical by going on a missions trip...and by missions trip I don't mean Hawaii, or Europe. I mean back water Africa, shacking up with Christians in war-torn Iraq, or China.

after that, I think he'll get a better idea about what church is about.

He claims that he needs to get "perspective." On what? Human inclinations, wishes, desires? That's pretty easy stuff to figure out.

Here's a suggestion: get some perspective on worship. I write from a reformed perspective where worship is understood to be a dialog between God and His people. They gather to receive His good gifts in Word and in Sacrament. I suggest reading the Westminster Confession of Faith along with the Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgic Confession. There he will find what has sustained God's people since the Protestant Reformation.

::YAWN!::

I'm getting tired of these grand pronouncements and shocking life illustrations to try to bolster someone and their ministerial street cred.

Call me when he has an original idea.

I commend Pastor Mark for what he is doing. The church as an institution has become totally disconnected from the outside world. For the most part, our busy-ness with church work looks like hamsters running in a wheel. Expending lots of energy. Going nowhere. We have no idea what's going on with people in the world. During my involvement in church work which involved lengthy meetings about plans and budget, I used to cycle to the church. This afforded me the opportunity to see people in the community, especially the local homeless people that used to congregate around the local McDonald's.I would buy a coffee or a McFlurry and chat with locals in one corner. Somehow, I recall those days in McDonalds as something Jesus might have done and something I should be doing as his follower. I just couldn't picture Jesus at another church planning meeting.

That's right, critics of Pastor Mark. You hang in there and keep on doing the same ol' same ol'. Sure, the culture was lost on your watch, but at least YOU were faithful, which is the point, right?

As a pastor I intentionally spend more time outside the four walls of the church, than inside. Here is a list of the things I do to maintain perspective. (It's is in no particular order)

1. I volunteer at my sons' school ... make it a point to get to know the staff and the pressure that they are facing.

2. I make it a point to introduce myself to one person everyday.

3. I met with people on their turf, not mine.

4. I design projects that meet the needs of the community and then invite the community to participate.

5. 80% of my meetings are with people outside the flock that I lead.

6. I listen.

7. I routinely meet with school, government, business, media, and and arts leaders. While I am with them I ask a lot of questions, show genuine interest in their lives, and pray with them. Result: they open up and I gain invaluable perspective to their lives.

Did you really just ask pastors "when was the last time you had to work 50-60 hours and then go to church on Sunday?" Few full-time pastors do less, and frankly, most bi-vocational pastors do more.

My wife (I'm a pastor), in response to the question of how pastor's wives could be encouraged by their congregations (a question posed to a pastor's wives panel at the recent "The Gospel Coalition Women's Confernce") immediately thought, "Don't expect more from the pastor and his wife in terms of commitment and attendance than you do from yourself." In other words, leave room for them to have to take that occasional break to handle family, home, or other responsibilities without fear of being judged lazy or uncommitted. While we have a great church family that wouldn't be judgmental like that, it can be discouraging to see how easy it is for people to "skip church" and make minor things a higher priority than the fellowship of the saints.

No one here obviously knows how good it feels to have a Sunday morning to do absolutely nothing but rest.

Going to church is as much about hearing all the things they want you to take part in, whether it be a new class or a mission "opportunity," as it is about worship. For my part, I don't correlate discipleship with the number of hours spent advancing and growing an institution.

As a single father, I have a full plate already and an institution (my family) that is my first priority.

I'm kind of with Jag. I don't think pastors appreciate how exhausted the congregation already is (mentally and physically) when they present another "opportunity" for them to serve at or give to. People have so many demands on their lives - it behooves church leadership not to add to that. I think exhaustion is one of the main reasons people don't go to church. Sunday is the only day of the week they can relax. I'd love to have a pastors life.

Thanks, David Z. It's encouraging to hear from someone who knows what it's like to be a full-time, called and committed, faithful pastor.

No offense to all the full-time, called and committed, faithful Christians who visit Out of Ur, but being a pastor is a different burden than simply being a Christian.

Ali,
I really hope you will ask your pastor if you could follow him/her around for just one day, and then I think you will realize that a pastor does know exactly what it means to be physically and emotionally exhausted from a job.

Don't get me wrong I love my job (I'm a pastor), most days. Other days I dream to have a 9-5 job where at the end of the day I can go home, and leave the work there, and actually have a weekend where I have 2 consecutive days off.

Saying that you have no time for something is rarely ever true. For one people spend on average 4.5 hours a day watching T.V. but even other than that, when you say you don't have time what you are really saying is that it isn't important enough to me. We make time for what is most important to us. Jesus calls us to love God with all our heart soul mind and strength, and to love him even more than our families. The problem is not one of time, it's one of priority.

Did I misunderstand why the Pastor is doing this? I thought it was so he could "get" why people don't come to church. I had been going to church (16 years in the Methodist) for years (10 in a Pentecostal) and left the last one because I could not agree with the way my son had been treated within his cell group. It's almost 4 years later and having visited many churches I am struggling to find one that I would like to call home. When I decided to leave the church I belonged to I spoke to my cell leader about it and was horrified by some of the things she told me e.g. I would never be blessed in life if I didn't continue to go to the church. Well I have been blessed out of my socks since then. I don't believe God's promises are conditional to the church that you go to.
I digress. I think the pastor perhaps wants to investigate what it is about church people that makes non-church people not want to be like them. I have been able to see it over the past four years, and believe me, I have yet to find one Christian that I want to fashion myself on, pastors and all. Maybe he'll get a better perspective of this outside of his church. I wish you well, Pastor, as you say the only difference between you and some of the people outside of the church is that you go to church. Blessed be all that you research.

Bottom line on why people don't come to church, from Scripture:

1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. --1 John 2:19, ESV. = being unsaved is evidenced in not being among the brethren.

2) But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, ***having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.*** --2 Timothy 3:1-5, ESV (emphasis mine). = many of our church members do not know God.

I understand that sometimes people have to work or get sick or a family emergency comes up (I was a bivocational pastor for almost 9 years before entering full-time ministry). But here's the bottom line, practically speaking: They're not missing their favorite TV show, or the must-see movie. You have plenty of time to do what's important to you. And if obedience to the Scripture for the glory of God isn't important to you, you're unsaved. That's the testimony of God's Word.

I don't say any of this to be judgmental, or harsh; I hope it doesn't sound like that. But the bottom line is that God's Word is clear, God's expectations are not burdensome, and God's glory is primary -- not my comfort or convenience. We lose these 3 truths when social concerns eclipse the gospel of the Cross.

Grace to you all.

Reagan
"But the bottom line is that God's Word is clear,...'

What God's Word is clear about church life does not happen when:
1. "Let us consider how you can spur one another on to love and good works, not giving up the habit of meeting..."
2. "...but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs..."
Do these two things happen in your "worship service"?

There is not a brand name church within a million people of me that does these two things when they gather for what is called "worship". Sitting in the pew and doing all the rituals IS forsaking assembly, because they don't do what it means to assemble as driven by God's Word.

Pastor Mark may experience these two realities while outside the pulpit and pew routine with no Pastor's hat on. I'm not sure if he would recognize them as a fulfillment of what God is asking for or not.

Hello and as a former Bi-Vocational Sr. Pastor. Now I am a full-time Sr. Pastor. I do not miss the 9-5 then burning the midnight oil for ministry. I am in touch with the "outside" world.

I'm with Ed on this one. My wife and I (she also works for the church Full-time) are very active outside the church.

1. My wife serves on the PTO (Parent Teacher Organization) at our kids school. I also volunteer as a crossing guard for the school. We are at the school so much we're on a first name basis with the principal of the school.

2. I attend monthly meetings with civic groups.

3. When possible I visit members of the church on their jobs or at their place of business.

4. Feeding the homeless also keeps us in touch with the outside world. We feed the homeless every month.

5. Finally, My wife and I are Business Consultants with a Software company. This keeps us on the cutting edge of technology as well as business practices.

6. I regularly schedule "family nights" for our Bible Study group. A family night is when you stay home and intentionally invest time with your family. Also we take 1 full month off for bible study every year. I am very sensitive to work/life balance as I also battle exhaustion on a weekly basis.

7. Finally, when my sabbatical comes I will NOT due any research of any kind. Unless it involves how many hours I can sleep consecutively. I will truly rest.

God bless everyone and I need a nap!

Alison, as a fellow former Methodist and Pentecostal, I can encourage you don't let the likes of your former cell groups get to you. Jesus definitely has more for you than that. I can tell you that so-called "unbelievers" and pagans are, many times, better examples of true Christlike compassion and healthy humility than us all-too-often self-righteous stinkers in the pew who are in church most every time the door opens.

If the Gospels are any indication, Jesus would be out hanging in the bars (not drunk) and local McDonald's, on the job with us, at our kids' soccer matches, and leaning over the neighborly fence with us having a real heart-to-heart with the real human being in us with our our "nice church face" masks off (not at all our churchly doings and programs, where we are trying to impress one another with our squeaky clean and biblically proper lives (however our particular religious subculture of choice tells us that should be).

All too often, what is going on in the pews, or in house Bible studies, or in cell groups amounts to nothing more than shallow religious performance and wearing of religious masks. I know that's true because, not to put too fine a point on it, taking as an example the tone and character of a few of the comments made here (which, unfortunately, I know characterizes an uncomfortably large portion of our American religious subcultures), if that was the general demeanor I detected in people at my church, you'd bet they wouldn't be seeing a whole lot of the real me. In my experience, Jesus only really shows up in reality. He'll leave us alone if what we are really interested in is a religious fiction of some sort.

I believe if and when Jesus came into our churches (questionable if He would even darken the doors of some of those quite possibly), He would likely have some rather ego-deflating, heart-penetrating "hard sayings" for us self-righteous stinkers in our comfortable, religious associations (and here even house groups seeking to be "the real" church can be as guilty of this or worse than their well-established liturgical counterparts--and I'm speaking from experience here).

Now, sometimes, by God's grace, what happens at "church" does support and filter back in a real way into our everyday lives where we really learn in dependence on our gracious Lord to live in a more genuinely humble, giving, truthful (especially about *ourselves*), loving and Christ-like way with our neighbors (even when such a neighbor comes in the guise of an enemy or "pariah" in our culture). Anything less it seems to me is unworthy of our Lord, and of our time.

Reagan, I think the points in your latter paragraphs are well taken, but I would also like to point out that your employment of that first Scripture from 1 John presupposes that the "us" referred to there is truly completely analogous to and represented by the congregation or Christian affiliation you claim as "church." Might be worth some reflection, too, whether or not that is wholly true. Christ knows who are His own. We humans cannot see to the heart of the matter so easily.

God commands us to attend church? Really? The verses mentioned by Greg show no such thing. They illustrate what was done by the people of that era. That is historical narrative, NOT divine commandments. Sure we can learn and incorporate such ideals presented in Scripture but we must not give in to poor exegesis. I understand why pastors spin it that way, especially the hard core manipulative ones....they don't want people staying away. Brian mentions "fellowship of the saints" as being the requirement. Hopefully his church is a better example than most for much of Sunday attendance is singing a few songs and sitting in the pew listening to the uni-directional lecture. Being in the same room with my brethren fails to define fellowship. Sharing a meal or spending time in my den praying for one another....that is fellowship. More than once I have taken a "Sunday sabbatical" and still recall the first time with all the "guilt" that needed to be unpacked in doing so. However, my time has always drawn me closer to the true character of God...the one who eschewed legalism in all its forms. And never, during those times, did I forsake the fellowship of the saints.

@Reagan. "I don't say any of this to be judgmental, or harsh; I hope it doesn't sound like that..." Your post sounds like you are declaring those not faithfully attending the Institution are unsaved. I would say that qualifies as judgmental AND harsh. I don't find Jesus commanding anyone to attend church/temple/synagogue as a condition of salvation.

Maybe someone can help...
The “Title” says - “Pastor 'Ain't Going to Church No More”

Did anyone - In the Bible - Ever “Go to church?”
Can you name one of His Disciples who would - “Go To Church?”
Or one of His Disciples telling another of His Disciples - “Go To church?”

Don’t know if anyone ever checked or not but...
In the Bible, after checking every verse with the word “church”
I found...

NO one ever *Led* “A Church.”
NO one ever *joined* “A Church.”
NO one ever *went to* “A Church.”
NO one ever *Tithed* to “A Church.”
NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”
NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”
NO one ever gave silver, gold, or money, to “A Church.”
NO buildings with steeples and crosses called “A Church.”
NO - Pastors - in Pulpits - Preaching - to People - in Pews. ;-)

In my experience... that’s what happens in “the church of man.”Yes?
Someone goes to a secular organization,The IRS, and asks for permission
to be called “church” and they fill out a form called a - 501 (c) 3.

If, and when approved, they become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation.

Should believers call a $ Corportion - The church” AAARRRGGGHHH :-)

In the Bible... Believers become “the Church of God.” :-)

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice

{{{{{{ Jesus ))))))

I don't know if the pastor is going to learn anything in his 3 months off of church, BUT the comment I really appreciate is David Zook's. Pastor Zook I sure the list you shared with us on how to reach out to our communities. I copied it and I am going to send it to my husband. He is a lay preacher. He doesn't pastor a church yet, but we are definitely very involved in our church family. These are great ideas. Thank you.

"In the Bible, after checking every verse with the word “church”
I found...[this is to indicate that I'm addressing the entire post and condensed it for space]...{{{{{{ Jesus ))))))"

Well, Blest, I have to say, you're right about the bible not including your aforementioned items on how, or to what form we run our churches currently.
That being said, it is what it is because...

Historically, the evolution of church practices stems from the Roman period, and that's more than just the architecture similarities. There is the processional and professional similitude's of the Western Church with Roman culture and religious mysticism and worship...and its been like this for the past fifteen hundred years.

I cannot speak for how the Eastern Orthodox does theirs and Karen is better informed than I, but for the Western Christendom, yeah, this is the end result of what we have today.

We have a professional theocratic staff of educated pastors who go through an intensive educational and business oriented school program to run a local church which is quite similar to how the Roman's ran their temples prior Constantine, and quite possibly, the cult's once Christianity rose to dominance.

We have architectural similarities which are quite apparent, and this also goes with interior decorations and layouts which also predate Christendom's rise in Rome.

Also, we have the Roman culture of male dominance/spiritual-head/relegation of women to inferior roles in the church and family which is still in evidence today. I.e. the man is the head, and all else revolved around him...things are changing in that regards, but it is still "encouraged" in the church.

So, the reason why we have what we have today is not because we're adrift in a sea of "duh, where we going?" But because these are the traditions we are familiar with, grown up under, and inherited by our forebears for quite some time...unquestioningly

Most of what we have here in the United States can be traced back to Rome, and so a lot of what we call "This is how we're suppose to do family and church!" is really just our cultural and spiritual traditions speaking...as to how or why our ancestors allowed this...cui prodest.

Our pastor is on Sabbatical right now. Part of it is visiting missionaries in far places to get a first-hand understanding of what they are doing. He will be meeting with other pastors to share ideas about improving our church's ministries. He will be visiting distant family members. He will return with new ideas, some of which will improve his ministry and our church. This will probably result in some worthwhile changes in our church, Meanwhile, our lay pastor, who is an excellent preacher, and our youth pastor will keep things running smoothly. Most of our staff members get sabbaticals, and each returns with new experiences and better ideas. The church is not hindered by their absences, but is built up.

Sheer, I'm can affirm the substance of a lot of what Blest has said, and also at the same time flip the coin to say that *in Scripturally normative circumstances*:

NO one ever led Christ's people (as an overseer or presbyter in Christ's Body) without also having first been known and recognized as one of her members, and formally consecrated and set apart for such particular service by that same Body through prayer in the midst of a local expression of that Body and the imposition of the laying on of hands by those also recognized and set apart in the same way all the way back to the Apostles and without also keeping to that same doctrine and practice.

NO one was ever joined to Christ, without also being baptized in water in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and having received the gift of the Holy Spirit through the imposition of an overseer's hands (or physical symbol of that same connection with said local overseer) into a discrete, local expression of Christ's Body, "the Church."

NO one ever assembled with others of Christ's people to fulfill the obligations Christ-revealed and ordained patterns of worship, without also constituting a discrete, concrete, local embodied expression of "the Church."

NO one ever tithed to God without bringing that tithe into the local embodied expression of "the Church," through its representative leaders.

NO one ever brought their friends to Christ, without also bringing them into the local expression of "the Church."

EVERYONE who has asked a member of Christ's Body, "what must I do to be saved?" or "what prevents me from being baptized? (Acts 8) is also *applying for membership* in "the Church."

EVERYONE who has given of their possessions to aid in the ministry of the local expression of the Body of Christ, has indeed given to "the Church."

ANY local gathering of the members of Christ's Body for worship, according to the Apostolic pattern may be fairly be called a local expression of "the Church.” And ALL buildings set aside for this purpose that did not need to be kept secret (and probably even some that did) were identified with the sign of the Cross and/or other Christian symbols.

YES - Apostles, presbyters, deacons, teachers, preaching, people-- (pulpits and pews--sometimes helpful tools, purely optional!)

SO . . .

There are certainly institutions within the Orthodox Church that do not, in and of themselves, necessarily partake of what is instituted by Christ as essential to the Church. We have many of the same struggles, consequently, in the Eastern Orthodox communion as our western brethren, which include, but aren't limited to:

1) the "undershepherds" of the Church behaving like overlords, "hirelings," and corporate-like administrators, rather than servants of Christ to minister His Priestly care to the souls of those he helps to shepherd, that they might in turn minister this Priestly care to others.

2) the spiritual disciplines of the Christian life being mistaken for the Christian life itself, i.e., as ends, rather than means,

3) conformity to some rigid understanding of the outward forms of the religion being mistaken for true inward transformation into the likeness of Christ.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

The answer is not to get rid of the undershepherds, the spiritual disciplines, nor even the outward forms (there are true "Icons" that properly symbolize and reveal Christ in His Church). It is rather to recognize and observe their real purpose and nature and keep them in their proper perspective, priority and order.

I don't think it is completely inappropriate to refer to the buildings in which the local Church meets, also as a "church," or to say "go to church." I think there are contexts in Scripture where this is, in fact, concretely what was being suggested, but this is obviously also in a much larger context where what is meant by Church ultimately is the mystery of Christ within His people, with Him as the Head and them as the Body in that mystery, with Christ as our great High Priest, and all Christ-commanded activities of God's people as images and embodied expressions of that one Priesthood.

I know, I was addressing the issue of the path of historical tradition that has led us, the US church to hows and where-from's that we get much of our "church methodology" sans input from the bible/spiritual aspect.

Perhaps, I should have been more inclusionary with regards to the development of the Church through Acts...My motivation was that I didn't want to write an essay.

I wonder off hand what Out of Ur's requirement for contributing authors to submit thesis's and what is the word count limitation is...perhaps one of the editors or the moderator could provide the information for us all?

Writer's guidelines may be found at:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/help/faq.html

Comment guidelines may be found at:

http://www.christianitytoday.org/help/permissionsandprivacy/termsofuse.html

"Writer's guidelines may be found at:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/help/faq.html

Comment guidelines may be found at:

http://www.christianitytoday.org/help/permissionsandprivacy/termsofuse.html"

Ah, excellent, and the latter being even more useful for me.

Thank you!

Karen
"No one ever..."
"Everone who has..."
This indicates that you think that the only true expression of church is that which is institutionally guided and 99% of the time is connected with a brand name and a building. This is a sad and myopic view of church. There are millions upon millions of believers, who are the church, all around the world, and throughout church history, with greater faith than yours, who have made more disciples than you, who have baptized more than all those in the Ortho Church, who have sacrificed far more than any wealthy western pew sitter, who have never seen someone known as an "under shepherd", and have never entered a building known as a church. There are far more of these than those who hold to a brand name and walk in a church door every week. Some of them have been persecuted by "under shepherds" of your church.

You are reading narrow minded history books, journals, and ascribe to very common institutionalized version of faith that can see so little and is looking so little. Many have testified of these millions and you reject it no doubt. You will see them one day around the throne. Is of these, that the Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith speak of.

"For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves." The next time you take the cup and bread, consider your lack of discernment concerning the body of Christ.

I am a vocational pastor, and like any born again followers of jesus should be able to see is, given our best efforts, we still stumble around as the church, the divinely given word of GOD in the hands of redeemed, but sinful men. Yes we tend toward institutional religion, but if pastor has gotten lost in the system, it is certainly understandable that he wants to step away to gain perspective. May i offer a suggestion? The church, ( thats you ) has been given a commission by the lord that you follow, and this should be the primary focus of yours, and every other follower of christ: the gospel is the only thing that carries the power of GOD to save the lost, and it is to the lost that we are sent. I find it ironic that 90 % of the church, institutional or not, is distinctively not about this work. If you would like to gain a perpective that will put new life into your ministry, i suggest you come back to the reason that the church exists at all, not to serve itself with more programs and projects, multimillion dollar buildings, but to knock on doors, go out to the marketplaces and parks and malls, and bring the only true message to this hurting and lost world

To the other "Karen." (Something amiss here?--I'm not intending to reply to myself!). Please note the qualifying phrase in my first paragraph to Sheer above "*in Scripturally normative circumstances.*" It was an important qualifier.

That said, the rest of your comment indicates you have misunderstood the context and most of the import of my comment, and I have already taken up too much space in this thread. Obviously, I disagree with your presuppositions about much of Church history and the "brand name" issue (a modern consumerist term that has no place in describing how the Church chose to identify herself in distinction to numerous heresies that cropped up over the years). If you have read other of my comments, you will know that I do *not* limit God's capacity to work in and through those not formally connected with what I understand, based on the Scriptures' teaching, to be the fullness of the expression of Christ's Church. What is "Scripturally normative" is binding upon the believer who accepting those norms (in obedience to Christ) and being limited and human, must always to some extent judge based upon appearance. But those norms are certainly not binding upon God, Who knows the heart and Whose Spirit "blows where He wills." I hope this puts my comments in a more helpful context for you.

As I read the comments, I saw support, understanding, anger, personality bashing, judgmental attitudes, side-ways anger towards the church and clergy, stereotypes, and an unwillingness to recognize that one person’s path to refreshment does not need my approval. There is not always one story or (apart from Christ) one truth.

Wayne Rhodes, M. Div, Ph.D.
Lead Pastor
First Presbyterian Church
Valparaiso, IN.

Hmmm?
Pastors? Lead Pastors? Executive Pastors? Senior Pastors?

Hasn’t anyone ever wondered - Why - In the Bible...
NOT one of His Disciples was called to be a “Pastor” - leading a church?

In the Bible...
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the "Title" - Pastor?
Can you name one of His Disciples who was called - Pastor?
Can you name anyone who was - Hired or Fired - as a - Pastor?

And every Pastor I’ve met - Had the “Title” Reverend...
Is there anyone - In the Bible - With the “Title” Reverend?

Seems - In the Bible - Reverend refers to God.
Ps 111:9 ...holy and reverend is his name.

Jer 50:6 KJV
*My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
“their shepherds” have caused them to “go astray”

1 Pet 2:25 KJV
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I’m Blest... I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul.

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

Wayne
It's true, there is not only one story. That don't mean every story from anybody matches up with one Lord, one faith, one church, one book or all the other one's. We're all trying to help in our own "members of one another" way. Some spur, some encourage, some exhort, some rebuke and correct. It's great to see the variety of emotion and substance flowing.

Blest
You're on to something here. It's a big can of worms that most just ignore because they are so comfortable and so assured by tradition that everything is ok right here in Ur. It's just like a lot of people still genuflect and pray to Mary even though the truth is right in front of them. God offers a gift. He doesn't force obedience on anyone.

Blest, the Bible does talk about pastors, and of course talks about churches and the bishops, elders and deacons who work in the church, as well as the pastor. The word episcopos (bishop) means "overseer", distinguishing the office of the bishop from that of an elder, giving him authority over the elders and the congregation. The disciples were called to be apostles, a special office in which they were set apart, and they were given special gifts so that they could go out into the world and spread the news of the Gospel. There were certainly others who could, and did serve as the pastors.
And btw, I'm 57 years old, have always belonged to a church, and none of the pastors used the term Reverend. They were always called pastor, and none of them used the term reverend in their writing or letterheads, or in any other way.

Eph 5 :11-12
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19-25 tells us to not forsake the fellowship of meeting with other Christians.
"For He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

The apostles appointed elders in the churches (Acts 14:23), and in every town (Titus 1:5) and bishops and deacons in Philippi (Phil 1:1).
In Timothy it lists the qualifications for deacons and elders. Don't forget that Paul's letters were to churches! In the NT, it mentions the word rebuke often, and as it as a good thing, so that people do not stray from the truth of God's Word. God installed a visible church, not an invisible church, and reading more of the books of the Bible teaches us more, rather than leaning on our own flawed human understanding.

I'm confused.

Where does the Bible ever say, "Thou shalt meet weekly"? Didn't those who were following Jesus in Acts live life together, meeting daily in Acts 2? Doesn't the Bible call us to a lot more than a Sunday morning experience?

It doesn't sound like the pastor is cutting himself off from community, just the bulk of Sunday morning.

In answer to Tim's comment reflecting his ongoing habit and prejudice of conflating Medieval Roman Catholicism (including its errors) with classic historic apostolic Christianity of the ante-Nicene and Nicene periods, here is the Orthodox Christian understanding of Mary:

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2012/07/12/why-evangelicals-need-mary/

I agree totally with Tim, though, that "God offers a gift. He doesn't force obedience on anyone." Well said. The Augustinian determinism that flavors aspects of Roman Catholicism and found its way in logical extensions found in ultra-Calvinist Reformed versions of "predestination" that go well past what St. Augustine himself believed have never had a place in the Eastern Orthodox Christian understanding of God's plan of our salvation in Christ.

I consider it a joy and a privilege to attend the services of my church--truly there is nowhere I feel more at home in my expression of love for Christ, but I certainly do not condemn anyone, much less someone who may for sound spiritual reasons take a break from formal church attendance. And, regardless of where we may worship, anyone who truly loves Jesus is a friend of God and a friend of mine.

At this point, I must make my departure for the last time from this blog. A big thanks to the moderators for your kind indulgence, and to all my gracious interlocutors.

Sierra

Yes - the word pastor is in the Bible. Only once in the NT. Hmmm?
BUT - You didn’t name one of His Disciples who was called - Pastor.
Seems - pastors in the Bible and - Pastors we see today - Ain’t the same.
NO one had the “Title” Shepherd or Pastor. Except Jesus, of course.

That’s why I asked...

Hasn’t anyone ever wondered - Why - In the Bible...
NOT one of His Disciples was called to be a “Pastor” - leading a church?

In the Bible...
Can you name one of His Disciples who had the "Title" - Pastor?
Can you name one of His Disciples who was called - Pastor?
Can you name anyone who was - Hired or Fired - as a - Pastor?

Paid - Professional - Pastors - in Pulpits - Preaching - to People - in Pews
Seems to be a “Tradition of Men” that makes “Void” the word of God.

Mark 7:13...
KJV - Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition...
ASV - Making “void” the word of God by your tradition...
NIV - Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition...

What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

Sierra

You also mention - elders - overseers - and Titus 1:5.

Have you ever checked out the tuff qualifications for - elder/overseer?
Yes - Paul talks about elder/overseers and also the - qualifications.
You can’t have elder/overseers with out the qualifications - can you?

Here is the first qualification for “elder/overseer”

1 - A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**... 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 - For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**... Titus 1:7 KJV

**Hmmm? “Elders/Overseers” *Must Be*...

That *must be* is the same Greek word as: ...
You *must be* born again. John 3:7.

*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s - necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.

**Hmmm? Must Be - **Blameless**... How important are these words?

Blameless - Strongs #423 - anepileptos - inculpable, unrebukeable.
Thayer’s - that cannot be reprehended, (cannot be, rebukable, reprovable,
cannot find fault) not open to censure, irreproachable.

Dictionary - Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.

1 Tim 3:2 ASV - The bishop therefore must be without reproach...
1 Tim 3:2 NIV - Now the overseer must be above reproach...

How many, who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”

And if you can see yourself as **blameless:**
Is that pride? And no longer without fault? ;-)

The Bible talks about “elders/overseers.”
And **qualifications** for “elders/overseers.” (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)

Can you have one without the other? Hmmm?

This is only one of many tough qualifications.
And there are tough **qualifications** for the children also.

If an “elder/overseer” does NOT meet these qualifications....
Will they remove themselves and be an example to the flock?

I’m Blest - I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul... Jesus...

Blest-when God found Noah righteous, do you really think he was without sin? When God wrote the qualifications for bishop, elder, pastor (which you claimed were not even in the Bible) do you really think He thought there would be a perfect person for those roles? The Bible says no one is perfect, no, not one. Yet, he calls for those positions to be filled by those who love Him. You're just looking for excuses to follow what YOU want to do, and not what God has told you to do. No further replies needed, you are in rebellion to God, and making up your own excuses.

Sierra

So, are you saying - ALL the qualifications from Paul can be ignored?
Or - Paul was just kidding when he said an elder - “Must Be Blameless?

And you still haven’t answered - Why - In the Bible...
NOT one of His Disciples was called to be a “Pastor” - leading a church?

Jer 50:6 KJV
*My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
“their shepherds” have caused them to “go astray”

1 Pet 2:25 KJV
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I’m Blest... I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul...

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

Seirra

Can we ignore these two qualifications also? 2 - Just. 3 - Holy.

Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober,
*just,* *holy,* temperate;

2 - Just
Strongs #1342 - dikaios {dik'-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers - 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

3 - Holy
Strongs #3741 - hosios {hos'-ee-os}
Thayers - 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

Now that’s three tough qualifications for “elder/overseers” -

1 - Must Be Blameless. 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. Yes?

We are asked to know those who say they are over us.

And we beseech you, brethren, **to know them**
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord,
and admonish you;
1 Thess 5:12 KJV

We are responsible *to know* - If any, every, Pastor/Leader - Qualifies....
To be an “Elder/Overseer”

Makes an interesting study - checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “elder/overseers” - then checking out those who say they are “elder/overseers” - compared to the qualifications. :-)

And if they don’t meet the qualifications? - Will they remove themselves?
And be a good example to the flock?

Jesus loves me this I know...

The Church of God is alive and well today and always. The sad part is that many buildings are being called the church when in fact, they are not. I have written some books and one of them deals with false teachers and false converts, another deals with When is it time to Change Churches? That one takes a long look at the pastors and the teachings they receive in seminaries. People do not realize how liberal many professors are in the seminaries, and they are the ones training todays leaders who take great pride in their accomplishments, (i.e. MDiv, PhD). Personally, I do not agree with the thought that a pastor needs to leave church to understand why unchurched people do not go to church. God's Word tells us the reason -- they Hate God! Plain and simple, they hate God. None of us were born Christians, we were all apart of the world until God drew us to Himself. No one comes to the Father unless God draws him. Don't forget that "church" is used to edify the body of believers and to worship God. Church is NOT for the unbeliever, at least to the point that we, the church, change our message so as to accommodate the unbeliever. Preach on sin and repentance, faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. With it will come obedience to God's Word as well as a desire to reach the lost.

Blest,
Before you go further out on that limb you do understand that the term "disciples" means more than the immediate twelve, right?
Stephen was a disciple...and so where hundreds others...perhaps thousands, and offices were chosen on...well, who was spiritually mature.
I think that we should limit the discussion on how the church has allowed the development of the positions in the church to become rigid authority structures unto themselves, rather than try to make determinations on the validity of the positions themselves.

sheerahkahn

You write...
“and offices were chosen on...well, who was spiritually mature.”

NOT quite sure what you’re saying.

Are you saying we can “Ignore” or “Twist” the qualifications by Paul?
For determining who is qualified to be an “Elder/Overseer?

1 - Must Be Blameless. - Without fault, innocent, guiltless.

2 - Just. - Righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.

3 - Holy. - Undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, pure holy, pious...
...... religiously observing every moral obligation.

What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

What do I do to maintain perspective? I go to church.

After reading through these comments, I believe I will extend my own sabbatical from church. It's obviously not a safe place to return to yet.

Be honest you who are pastors and associate pastors of larger churches. I served in a large church as a staff member for over 10 years. I believe the larger the church the less difficult the job. The money, resources, salary and volunteers are there for the "pickins". It truly is an ivory tower experience and a much easier job than working a 9 to 5. Flexible schedule, self employed hours, long lunches and starbucks meetings, "ministering", with the church picking up the tab. The lay people need to stop worshipping their "undershepherds" more than the "Chiefshepherd", especially the Senior Pastor. You are setting him up for narsicism, nepotism and neglect of his duties because he believes he can do no wrong. Hold your staff accountable. I understand lay people feeling resentful, that is why I became unhappy and left full time ministry. I enjoy "mingling with the mangled" bi-vocationally because I believe it is the best way to "relate".