Laws against gay marriage do not stem from hate but a desire for the best possible outcome for society.

Society benefits from the traditional, one man one woman definition of marriage. It is best for children to have a mother and a father and it is best for society as a whole to encourage that and not to encourage same sex marriage.

What is encouraged more, you will have more of.

Why not allow 3 or 4 people who all really love each other to get married? Why not people and animals whom they really love?

One man, one woman is time tested and a proven aid to a healthy society for healthy children. Children need both the male and female influence. It is better, generally, than two of the same sex.

And these arguments have nothing at all do with the church.

Wow.

Not sure where this guy came from but he's 2 for 2. This spoke right from my heart. The answer is not distancing myself from the crazy religious nuts put to stand up and say what we are REALLY called to believe. We must love all more loudly when our faith is being tinted with words perceived as hate.

It's a shame that some will miss the point of this article entirely. But as for me I will come away from this with more determination to love more boldly and spread Christ's true mission with urgency and passion.

Thanks for your boldness.

This is an excellent post. Let's all commit to speaking loudly about the Jesus we know--the one who is a friend to all and allows free will.

This very short piece:

http://www.lightofthemaster.net/apps/blog/a-40

has to do with judgement vs. admonishing, in the church. And how being indulgent is not being loving.

Thank you.

I have often found myself embarrassed by what some say when representing Jesus to the world. It's even worse when the worlds mis-understanding spirals into them thinking I believe something so drastically different from the Gospel I know. Posts like this give me hope that there are many of us trying to right these misconceptions and I am not alone.

The more of us who stand up and convey the true gospel of love the more the world will see the kindness of our savior and turn their hearts to him. But it takes some courage to stand. Thank you for standing up and so you know I'm standing right beside you.

"...we cannot legislate good moral behavior because it just does not work"...well then there shouldn't be any laws against rape, murder, assault, etc. Let's just abolish all laws since they "don't change human hearts." Many laws are in place to "legislate good moral behavior" as well as declare what we as a society consider right and wrong. This oft-repeated statement holds no real weight when you think about it.

Why is it always "hate" to tell someone that they are a sinner (whatever the sins might be) and in need of Jesus?

I don't agree with blaming entire groups for the actions of one person, but this article quickly goes beyond that and at that point I cease to agree.

The "not wanting to belong to this judgemental group" is what kept me away from Church for 30 years. Not until I heard the message at Journey Foothills through Michael Cheshire did I understand the personal relationship between me and God - the reasoning, the love, the acceptance. No where I can find in the Bible does it say, "If you belive in Me, please be extraordinarily harsh with those with those whose sins are different than yours". I dont' think it says, "Preach love through judgement, hatred, labeling and closed minds". If someone can find those passages, I'd sure like to see them. Thank you Michael for your honest message and words. I appreciate you.

Laws don't change the human heart. Laws declare and dictate the consequences of us not taking responsibility and modifying and controlling our own behavior.

Steve Martin, your words show you don't understand. To say one man and one woman is time tested, is laughable. Read the old testament. Many had wives (as in more than one). Read a newspaper and see how many one man one woman marriages that are time tested and end in divorce. Or even murder! If you're hoping time tested wins your argument, you have already clearly lost. The author is clear in his stance. He won't do the weddings but doesn't want to try to pass laws against them. It seems to me the issue we are having in talking to a lost and fallen world, comes more from men like you acting like overlords who want to force Christian beliefs down everyone's throat. Then a Christian voices a different feeling, one which resonates with many of us, I might add; and here come the arguments of marrying many people, of marrying animals, or children, or a desk! Please stop demanding that the world follow our Christ because it makes you FEEL better. The article cuts to the core of why we have lost our voice. My sister is gay and I spent years telling her how wrong she was. Over the last few years I have just tried to love her and talk. Now more that ever, we have great conversations about God and understanding what knowing Him looks like. I've seen this work first hand. I doubt people like you even know anyone who differs with your beliefs.

I love this article. It is so true! I'm just glad someone finally voiced this.

As an atheist, Thank You, and God bless!

"Why is it always "hate" to tell someone that they are a sinner (whatever the sins might be) and in need of Jesus?"

Trey, telling someone they're a sinner isn't hate. It's rude, and it's pretty immature to judge other people, but it's not hate.

What is hateful is the government treating different people differently simply because of one groups religious beliefs.

Trey, you wrote: "well then there shouldn't be any laws against rape, murder, assault, etc."

The reason for the existence of laws against rape, murder, assault, etc. is because society as a whole accepts these things as being detrimental to the public good. Only on the extreme fringes would you find anyone attempting to argue that rape, murder, assault, etc, are actually *good* for society! No one accused of these crimes would ever argue in court that it was their moral right to do so. They will argue, instead, that either they are not guilty, or that there were mitigating circumstances to justify doing these actions.

That same level of overwhelming consensus is not present on the issue of gay marriage. And without that consensus, any laws or constitutional amendments against it will ultimately be unenforceable.

So, no, the purpose of laws is not to legislate good moral behavior. Rather, laws exist *because* certain behavior is already accepted as good and moral.

I wish more Christians had this point of view on theses issues. I think that would fix a lot of how people see Christians.

While I agree that some Christian leaders say crazy stuff, but it is certainly not limited to those on the Right. You don't see the media go after the crazies on the Christian Left who advocate for abortion. Even launching 40 days of prayer FOR abortion.

Do you really think same-sex marriage will have not impact on your church? Do you not realize that right now Christians are being sued for refusing to participate in a SSM ceremony? Do you not realize that the state of Hawaii nearly passed a law requiring churches to hold SS weddings? There will soon be a time when you will be called a bigot for your statement that you believe what the Bible says about homosexuality.

Finally, laws do not change the heart of man, but they do impact peoples behavior. Should we legalized murder and rape because people will still rape and murder? How many more people feel free to smoke weed now that it is legal in Colorado and Washington. Is that going to be a positive thing for those states and those people.

Michael, from the Old Testament prophets to Jesus and modern day martyrs. They have several things in common. They spoke the truth boldly and were hated by the culture around them that "loved the darkness." It get it that millennials are very concerned about tone, but tone can never trump truth.

I agree with this 100%! I'm grateful that someone is putting the focus back on the responsibility of us who do not share these crazy opinions. We can not simply ask for other to simply be quiet if we are not willing to stand up and speak.

We must stand together in the name of love and let people know that we do in fact love EVERYONE! There are no exceptions for the gospel and no one that is beyond loving.

Have we forgotten that these people we talk about are all God's kids. I find that if we would see people through the eyes we see our children we would begin to change the way we talk about them.

Thank you for this great piece. Much needed!

The reason nobody goes "after the crazies" on the Christian Left is that there is no comparable political movement there. There is no viable "Christian Left". There is no demonstrable political block called the Christian Left that has exerted its muscle and gleefully taken credit for certain kinds of electoral outcomes. There hasn't been on the Left, in general, a viable, organized movement anything like the constellation of Rightist groups that have been active over the last 30plus years.

If you take that into account, and the fact that CT and other organizations can't seem to bring themselves to actually head-on rebuke voices like Huckabee, etc. when they overstep, then we all can't whine that we're all just misunderstood, and that we're being victimized by some loudmouths.

Michael Cheshire is right. It's just too bad he's not the president of the NAE or the Editor in Chief of CT or Charisma.

Repentance comes as a reaction of the relationship we have with Christ. Even with the prostitute who was about to be stoned to death, Jesus said "go and sin no more" only after he stood up for her life, established his love, and she reached out for him. Isn't that the way we should show Christ's love? It's not sin no more and then Christ forgives you. He's already forgiven. What the church has done is show Jesus ready to stone the prostitute unless she repents. That's not good news.

Laws against divorce do not stem from hate but a desire for the best possible outcome for society.

Society benefits from the traditional, one man one woman definition of marriage. It is best for children to have a mother and a father and it is best for society as a whole to encourage that and not to encourage divorce.

What is encouraged more, you will have more of.

Why not allow a man and a woman who have voluntarily taken vows to be faithful to each other, to love and serve each other for richer or poorer, for better or for worse, til death parts them, to nullify that bond before God and witnesses?

One man, one woman is time tested and a proven aid to a healthy society for healthy children. Children need both the male and female influence. It is better, generally, than only having one or the other.

And these arguments have nothing at all do with the church.

[paraphrase of the first comment]

Any time some one tries to pin a natural disaster on the sinfulness of a particular group of people, or account for the evil actions of one or a few in the same way as in this case, I'd just like them to read Luke 13:1-5 and Ezekiel 18:20 and pay careful attention to the principle being taught. Then they should go read the book of Job and pay careful attention to the judgment God made about Job's friends and what they said about Him. It seems like what we need is just a careful reading of the Scriptures and away with this magical scapegoating (which I think is an essentially pagan mindset!).

Mary, you make a good point about repentance being a response to the recognition that Christ is for us and that God takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner, but rather desires that he turn from his wickedness and live (Ezek.33:11). I'm not sure where you get that the adulteress "reached out for" Jesus, though. She was forced before Him by others. It just turned out to be her lucky day because any real encounter with Jesus is transformative.

Jeff, To say one man and one woman is time tested, is laughable. Read the old testament. Many had wives (as in more than one). Read a newspaper and see how many one man one woman marriages that are time tested and end in divorce. Or even murder! If you're hoping time tested wins your argument, you have already clearly lost. The author is clear in his stance. He won't do the weddings but doesn't want to try to pass laws against them. It seems to me the issue we are having in talking to a lost and fallen world, comes more from men like you acting like overlords who want to force Christian beliefs down everyone's throat. Then a Christian voices a different feeling, one which resonates with many of us, I might add; and here come the arguments of marrying many people, of marrying animals, or children, or a desk! Please stop demanding that the world follow our Christ because it makes you FEEL better. The article cuts to the core of why we have lost our voice. My sister is gay and I spent years telling her how wrong she was. Over the last few years I have just tried to love her and talk. Now more that ever, we have great conversations about God and understanding what knowing Him looks like. I've seen this work first hand. I doubt people like you even know anyone who differs with your beliefs.

Hi Pamela,

Sorry, I was attempting to use some satire to show one angle of the absurdity of Steve Martin's original argument above. He seems to be saying that since one man and one woman marriage is best for kids then anything that could be seen to infringe on that should be illegal.

I just copy/pasted his entire post and substituted divorce for same sex marriage. The point I was trying to make was in showing that since even divorce, which is the most obvious infringement on a one woman - one man marriage, is legal therefore his argument is invalid.

Should have executed it better.

Merry Christmas!

Also, Michael C, great original post. Was steered here by Rachel Held Evans' tweet.

Thanks Jeff!
I'm a fan of sarcasm but obviously not very good at reading it. lol.

I thought for a second...this crazy guy thinks divorce is illegal! ha.

Thanks for posting.

-J

I needed your words. The stirrings within my soul haven't been able to formulate well. But you say it perfectly! For those who point a finger at those imperfect people (me), might they realize there are three fingers pointing back at them. And I must say have they read the book of Matthew where we are all told not to judge.

"What if God wants people to choose for themselves the life they will live? Yes, I believe I read that in Deuteronomy 30:19. “I (GOD) set before you life and death, blessing and curses. Choose life.” "

The author has completely misconstrued this verse: "Choose Life" (as opposed to death - not "Choose whatever life you'd like to live."
The verse supports a pro-life stance...not a gay marriage (or whatever other perverse behavior with which you'd like to fill in the blank.

Standing against a perverse culture isn't hatred. Our culture has smuggled in perverse & soul-less values while at the same time demanding that moral values do not exist. One is certainly free to have sex with whomever they wish...but that doesn't mean we justify, accept or approve of it by allowing it to be labeled "marriage."

Your sins are forgiven you, now go and sin no more; all things may be permissable...but hardly profitable.

Christianity Today is becoming a liberal Jesus think tank.

Gene,

I think that your focus is off in your criticism of this post. What do you believe is happening as a result of a shift in focus on LAW and JUDGEMENT to one of GRACE and a FREEDOM to follow God in a more personal and intimate way than ever before.

As one of my favorite authors Phillip Yancey once put it. "No one has ever converted to Christianity because they lost the argument."

Makes me also think of Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Lets be instruments of God's KINDNESS!

Amen. Amen. Amen.

I am standing up from my desk and cheering for this message.

Thank you!

You took the words right out of my heart with this one. I am so thankful that more voices are beginning to echo what I feel God has been screaming at us for oh so long.

This post must be shared. It must be lived out. It must cause a shift in the church.

It must.

"He subtly blamed the gays, iPods, computers, evolution, and the fact that God is not in our schools for the shooting in Connecticut."

What person and what quote is he talking about? Does "subtly" mean he did not mention these things specifically but the author adding them in because he thinks he meant them? No quotes are given so I can't say I agree or disagree with this media person.

But his article is so full of extreme exaggeration it can only be meaningful to people who live on this plane of life.
Examples:
"…the people these leaders attack…" What attack?
"… like an unwilling hostage in a cruel game,…" Hostage? Cruel game?
"…like I’m with a crazy uncle who makes ignorant comments…" Crazy?
"…We need proximity to those we keep throwing rocks at."
"…my “American Christian” membership card because it seems tainted with a lot of hate…"

"Yesterday I had a gay friend email and ask how this shooting was his fault."
Cheshires in ability to give a coherent answer to this question is his own fault. His dubious reasoning that follows demonstrates his own weakness, not issues with someone else's media statements.

"We cannot legislate good moral behavior because it does not work."
You should tell that to progressives to give up on the laws they want to force down everyones throat. No guns. No large soda pop. No views against homosexuality. Gays must have the right to use the word marriage in their relationships. (Why do they even want this since it is marriage is loaded with Bible and God meanings?) Every one must pay for condoms, abortions, etc. Government must be involved in EVERY medical decision. No mention of God anywhere government is involved.. and on and on. Of course laws change things morally. Everyone knows this. That's why there is a division in our country in law making. What is Cheshire thinking here?

"What if God wants people to choose for themselves the life they will live? Yes, I believe I read that in Deuteronomy 30:19."
Wow, Cheshire has some interpretive problems with this passage. Is this really what this passage is teaching? Does this make sense with anything else in the Bible? No. This is just a dumb argument that demonstrates desperate thinking.

"We Christians are in every argument and yet we seem to be out of every real conversation. We cannot reason with people when we are too busy blaming them for all the pain we can’t comprehend."

Is Cheshire demonstrating "real conversation" and "reason" in this article. I cannot find it. Cheshire has not figured out the following distinction. If someone says that a certain worldview is causing destruction, does that mean everyone who holds that worldview should think they personally are the cause of every element of destruction caused by that worldview? No. It means that one is trying to show that worldview has serious problems to it and they are manifesting those problems in these ways by other people who hold that same worldview. The fact that there was a similarity in worldview does not mean you are equally responsible for every element of destruction.

"Maybe the church could walk away from politics for a while and start working at reaching hearts."

Well by this time all politically involved believers on the conservative side are supposed to be hanging their heads in shame and agree we must never do anything or say anything political.

"…why do we think a law against …abortion or any other moral issue is going to change the human heart?"

Well for one thing, a law against abortion would keep thousands of human hearts every day from being cut apart inside the womb and stopped from beating and growing. That is a good heart change to start with.

So those who know the "real Jesus" will all agree with Cheshire? The rest of us must be in some cult of a false Jesus?

"Reasoning and conversation are God’s way of changing hearts." Isaiah 1:18.

I think there is a much broader approach on God's part than just this approach. Cheshire, does this verse say this is God's only approach to changing hearts?

I think that Christians that will draw issue with this post are mostly those who do not associate with anyone outside their worldview. I don't mean to make too broad of a generalization but I have found that the more I befriend and reach out to those with apposing views, the more I gain understanding on how to best reach them for Christ.

We can all use a little more understanding of one another on both sides of all discussions.

I started writing a retort to that long and misguided rant by Tim above....but then I realized that It was going to be of no benefit to anyone.

The bottom line is that we must realize that whether it was our intention or not we have misrepresented Jesus to the world.

And unlike some that might believe in poking them in the eye and telling them they are blind, I believe that the answer comes in showing them the light.

And that light is a loving embrace and an understanding conversation. We have protection and shelter through the grace of God. To be light we must extend this grace as a shield of protection to a hurting world rather than spear them with our accusation and blame.

Wonderful post. Thank you.

Free will and Free Grace must be given the microphone.

I too am tired of those who have political power bullying a country that increasingly resents the church and the God we worship because of it.

Do not blame "The end times"

Do not blame "The sinful pagans"

Blame us. The church. God's people

We are Christs representation to this earth and we have all to often failed at our job.

This post is a call back to a real and authentic representation of Jesus.

And it is something I want to be a part of.

Tim- My friends and I just read this article and your comment.

We agreed that YOU ARE the PROBLEM that is talked about here. You managed to take an article about NOT blaming and learning to LOVE, and found a way to BLAME and cast JUDGEMENT.

How a person can read this article and then decide to make a host of wild accusations and judgement all in the name of so called "reason" amazes me.

REALLY?

But I understand that defensive retaliation is the natural response when one is convicted.

I hope that you will be able to re-examine your heart and find a place in it to really grab hold of the truths that fill this article.

...but unfortunately I don't know that you will be able to.

I'm not saying we shouldn't extend kindness & grace to those we encounter or who differ in their opinions on what's "normal".

But neither should we accept & affirm their lifestyles by giving them equality in marriage. Tolerance is one thing; affirmation another. Christ would love them & tell them to go & sin no more...but He wouldn't officiate @ their wedding.

It's lie the difference between judging & discernment. We don't judge the hearts of men...but we also don't associate long term with those who will not turn from their sin.

Now, by a show of hands...who out there is walking closely with a radical, fundamental Islamist & showing them kindness & grace?

Gene,

1st, I am so glad that you have turned from all your sin and are now perfect. I'm happy for people who associate with you because now that they're friends with a perfect person like yourself they are in the clear (according to your standard)

As for my friends, my church, my wife, my kids....all them need to run like crazy away from me because I haven't achieved this grand perfection that would make me able to be associated with.

I also think its funny you bring up officiating a gay wedding when that was mentioned specifically by the author as something he would not do....But it makes me wonder. Do you believe that someone who did would be destined for hell?

Are gay people unable to have salvation because there sin is far greater than your own? (Sorry, for a moment I forgot you were sinless.)

I'd ask that you take a look at how you are walking out this Grace and Kindness you say you're not apposed to. And take into account that the people you would "distance" yourself from may very well be some of God's kids that he desperately wants someone to show love.

that's all.

" We can still have convictions and strong beliefs without trying to create some new morality law ever year. We cannot legislate good moral behavior because it does not work."

Surely no thinking, educated person would consider this line of reasoning a good argument. If this is true, then laws restricting the ownership of guns will not work; laws against theft will not work; laws defining marriage will not work; laws against embezzlement will not work,,,, In fact, all laws should be eliminated and marriage should be abolished - if one were to follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion. God must have been nuts to have given the 10 commandments, let alone all those other laws He gave to Moses. After all, if He is God, surely He would know that they wouldn't work. And they didn't (all the time)- so why did He bother?

It has been an interesting five years of reading the posts here and seeing them get farther and farther from any resemblance of Biblical truth. There is no love for the Word of God, no grief over sin, no passion for the salvation of precious souls. There is only a drumbeat of hammering away at Truth and a seeking to have a God who loves our sin as much as we do.

Chad,

All other things being equal, the sin of the homosexual is no greater than that of the rapist, or the murderer or the thief or the adulterer...

...however, their attempts indoctrinate its acceptance through the public school system and their attempts to make it a hate crime to oppose the lifestyle & bring about general acceptance of it via acculturation make it greater by far.

The alcoholic doesn't attempt this, nor the rapist nor the murderer.

And the smart-ass, smarmy tone of your screed tells me all I need to know about you.

That's, uhm...all.

Little overstated at points, needs some push back here and there, probably needs to back off of the "my Jesus" stuff as that's not a good barometer of the "real Jesus"--the Bible's got that one down--but overall, I love this post and I pray that we Christians will humble ourselves and learn both to come out of the world (holiness) and go to the world (evangelism and mercy) at the same time. Blaming homosexuals etc for this atrocity is almost as disgusting to me as the atrocity. Shame on us, grace to us, grace through us for the glory of Christ. Thanks, Michael.

I was challenged by this post. But I think maybe in a different way than others.

I typically respond with hate when I hear the hateful things that some say in the name of Christ.

What I read hear was that they are our FAMILY! Our family? Crazy uncles all be it...but I love my crazy old uncle.

I must learn to respond to these folks as the author here does. With love and a correct view of the world. Not as I so often do with a bitterness toward my misguided Christian brother or sister.

Gene,

The hate crimes legislation was only talked about when people were murdered BECAUSE they were gay.

Many kids have bullied other kids because they struggled with homosexual issues so much that they have taken there own lives.

According to new research gay youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than those who are straight. One of these teens was one at the high school in my own town. Your lack of understanding a bigger issue tells me all I need to know of you as well. I hope you read more... They hide facts like these in things called books.

It's interesting...

Gene, you wrote to Chad: "And the smart-ass, smarmy tone of your screed (sic?) tells me all I need to know about you."

Chad, you responded to Gene: "Your lack of understanding a bigger issue tells me all I need to know of you as well."

It occurs to me that you both have much more in common than you realize...you both are content to judge the entirety of the other's life based on a disagreement on the internet.

It is sad to see so many people on *both* sides of the issue so uninterested in genuinely listening to and engaging with the perspectives of those on the *other* side.

I see so little love coming from either side, and too much "tit-for-tat" and "one-up-manship." "Oh, you insult me? Well, I'll insult you back!"

Is it any wonder the world does not take us seriously?

Its back, back, way back, it’s over the fence again folks. Michael Cheshire hits another home run on a tough pitch. One thing about this guy he doesn’t swing at the easy pitches. His writing is relevant and thought provoking.
I wonder what kind of country we would live in today if we as Christians put our money, time, and efforts into helping folks that are in serious financial difficulty. What if we put the same amount of effort, and money that the church now spends fighting abortion, and gay marriage, and used those resources to help those that are broken. This could allow us to reach one heart at a time. What if we took some of these resources and created seminars that teach our youth how to pick the correct mate, so that we could curtail the divorce ratio among Christians today.
Right or wrong the church is known for fighting against homosexuality, and abortion. As a Christ follower I believe I am supposed to be known for loving the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, strength, and mind. And the second greatest commandment I should be known for – Is loving my neighbor as myself. How can I possibly do this if I continually isolate myself arguing over the non-relevant issues? Bringing people to Christ is what is truly relevant.
I wonder what would have happened to Christianity if the apostles stayed in certain regions exchanging banter pertaining to homosexuality instead of spreading the gospel. Some of you may not know it, but the Gospel means “Good News.” Sometimes to spread the gospel you have to break down walls and barriers, unfortunately we have inherited a horrid legacy of walls that need to be broken. The church attendance is declining in this country for a reason, we no longer represent good news, but instead represent self-righteous indignation. If nothing else this article makes you think about what Christianity could represent in this country if we ever got our priorities straight.

"As much as I would like to turn in my “American Christian” membership card because it seems tainted with a lot of hate and politics, I cannot. Unfortunately, we are all going to be tied together no matter what, so I’m going to get louder about my Jesus."

Truth there! I have always rather distanced myself from something than push in with truth and try and change it.

This article is a challenge. To be a voice in the conversation.

Lets stand for the truth OF grace.

"It has been an interesting five years of reading the posts here and seeing them get farther and farther from any resemblance of Biblical truth."

And therein lies the problem...sometimes the truth is ugly, distasteful, and steps on the toes of our precious prejudices and our cherished biases.

The scribes had a similar argument as you when considering Y'shua.

Sheerahkahn, You make no sense. Happy Holidays.

Elegance, I wrote about this to Trey. Since he didn't respond, and since you brought up the same argument, I'm interested in your thoughts...

Both you and Trey object to the premise that "[w]e cannot legislate good moral behavior because it does not work." Both you and Trey appear to believe that the logical conclusion to the line of reasoning would be to eliminate all laws, and that the absurdity of such a conclusion proves that the premise is wrong.

I would like to suggest that the elimination of all laws is *not* the logical conclusion.

Let me put it this way. You mentioned laws against theft. Let's say that your neighbor invites you to a party. You use the restroom, and when you get there, you discover a very expensive watch laying by the sink. You really like that watch. So, do you steal it?

I would be comfortable in guessing that you wouldn't. Now, ask yourself this question: *Why* did you not steal it? Did you not steal the watch because there was a law against stealing? To put it another way, if no such law against stealing existed, would you have done it *then*?

Or...

Did you not steal the watch because you know that stealing is wrong?

You see, this is what I told Trey earlier. The purpose of laws against theft is not to legislate good moral behavior. Rather, *because* respecting the private property of others is already widely accepted by society as good moral behavior, the law simply reflects that acceptance.

Interestingly, you also mentioned laws concerning gun control. That is precisely the reason why there is such a debate over gun control laws--at the moment there is not enough consensus necessary to enact and enforce those laws on a widespread level; although looking at current events, including the recent shootings in Connecticut, it certainly looks like those in favor of strict gun control are nearing critical mass.

And that is why laws allowing same-sex marriage are gaining traction. For better or worse (and for the record, from my own reading of Scripture, I believe it is for worse) society is increasingly accepting homosexuality as within the boundaries of "good moral behavior." The laws are beginning to reflect that.

I do believe that the Church should (lovingly and respectfully) *challenge* that acceptance by society, while acknowledging that there are many within the Christian church who disagree with me. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me--others are bound by their conscience, I am bound by mine. But for those in the Christian church who do agree (and I assume you are one of them), the question is then, "How do we challenge it?" How do we change laws concerning same-sex marriage?

We *don't* do it by political lobbying. We do it by preaching the Gospel, by making disciples, by teaching them to obey all the things we have been commanded. *That* is where our emphasis must be. And if we do that, if we work on the level of the human heart, if we let go of the power of laws in order to embrace the power of the Gospel, we can change society. And as we change society, the laws of society will change accordingly.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Blessings to you!

To the last comment labeled "A different anonymous".

Amen. Amen. Amen.

Well said my friend.

"Sheerahkahn, You make no sense. Happy Holidays."

Hmm, since I do not know who you are, I have never encountered your s/n anywhere, and this is the first I've seen your s/n ever I can only explain myself as such...I have no expectations of you understanding anything I write.

I'm okay with that, and my hope is that you are too.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and pleasant holidays to you and yours.

Well written and powerful. This post is a must read for all of us who daily struggle with how to explain our faith when so many have had it misrepresented to them.

Pastor Mike,

I have to agree with the gentleman that commented above. You are two for two. Your perspective is right on the money and you have quite a way of articulating what many of us are thinking. Thank you for being salt and light.

Blessings.

Your Brother in Christ,

Christian F. Monzon

"My Jesus would be friends with gays, drug addicts, prostitutes and. . . "

I just wanted to thank you for your commitment to loving people as Jesus would.

In ministry over 25 years to the sexually broken, I have learned so many things. One important one is it is not loving to label people. So, may I suggest the phrase quoted be revised to, "My Jesus loves all sorts of sinners, . . .even me."

This was a power packed post. Each sentence full of truth. I loved the unvarnished approach. I'm glad to hear someone voicing the way so many of us feel. We need more bold voices like this one to stand up and correct the misconceptions that the world has of us as Christ followers.

Gary Fisher
Even though I responded to very specific statements by Cheshire and you know exactly what I was conversing about, you reply with zero connection of what I said specifically with your own generalized "blame and cast judgement" routine. I blamed nothing and cast no judgement on Cheshire. Give me one statement of mine that did this. This is all you did to me. I can handle it. Let's try to converse with some specifics.

"How a person can read this article and then decide to make a host of wild accusations…"
What is one wild accusation that I made?

"We agreed that YOU ARE the PROBLEM that is talked about here."
I very well may be the problem suggested by Cheshire. I walked through item by item and showed that what he suggests is a problem, is not a problem or the problem. His basis for his thesis is weak theologically, functionally, and historically. He has been a sucker for progressive (all the while being the opposite of progressive, actually quite ancient) fabrications of truth and reality.

"I hope that you will be able to re-examine your heart…"
You gave no basis for me to re-examine my heart. Try again with something substantive. Be specific. Give quotes, not rewording. This is an invitation to Gary to come through, not for just anyone to cover for him.

AMEN TO THIS...WELL SAID

It's interesting...

Gene, you wrote to Chad: "And the smart-ass, smarmy tone of your screed (sic?) tells me all I need to know about you."

Chad, you responded to Gene: "Your lack of understanding a bigger issue tells me all I need to know of you as well."

It occurs to me that you both have much more in common than you realize...you both are content to judge the entirety of the other's life based on a disagreement on the internet.

It is sad to see so many people on *both* sides of the issue so uninterested in genuinely listening to and engaging with the perspectives of those on the *other* side.

I see so little love coming from either side, and too much "tit-for-tat" and "one-up-manship." "Oh, you insult me? Well, I'll insult you back!"

Is it any wonder the world does not take us seriously?

Fantastic post. It has been great to see the focus of our religion turn back towards the biblical center of the GOSPEL.

We are messengers of the good news. Not messengers of blame or hate. GOOD NEWS.

We are all broken messed up vessels that God is using in some way. Let us never forget that.

AMEN and THANK YOU!

I have often been brought to tears by the hurtful words people have spoken to my Gay brother in the name of the church. Growing up in church is a hurtful experience when you don't quite fit in to the mold.

Why do we often blame the one who looks different or acts different for the things we don't understand.

We'd all be better off if we just say "we don't understand"....But God is good and he loves us ALL anyway.

Let us all come to the realization that we are all figuring out how to walk out this faith we call Christianity.

This has been a challenge to me to re-think my role in representing my Jesus.

Maybe if we all think a little more about how the Jesus we have a relationship would react to these things we'd carry ourselves with a little more grace and mercy.

This stirred something up in me.

I would have never found this blog had I not read Michael's other article last week....

A friend sent the Ted Haggard article to me and from keeping up with Michael on twitter I found this post. And I am so glad I did.

I needed to read this. Thank you.

"Maybe the church should trade its picket signs in front of the abortion clinic for a blanket and a ride home at the back door."

Ya know, Michael Cheshire causes me to wonder if he's been to an abortion office to actually know what the Christians are doing to first save the baby from being put to death and then care for the mother after she's ended her baby's life.

Maybe he should be involved to know rather than expressing what seems to be the pro-abortion talking points.

BTW, he seems to not know how many times the mothers leave the offices in ambulances rather than the cars they came in.

From the Rockville Pregnancy Clinic (a crisis pregnancy center and medical clinic) Christmas message:
"We are honored to be sharing Biblical truths and the Gospel of salvation with the hundreds of women and families [Jesus] brings to us."

"Like the woman who was here recently for post-abortion counseling and she had almost the exact background as her post-abortion counselor."

RPC was there to wrap a blanket around her and uplift her by a pro-lifer who also had had a blanket wrapped around her and been uplifted by yet another pro-life person.

Yes, the pro-lifers are there to care for the women after their abortions. Does the Left acknowledge, know, or care about that?

Jesus calls the pro-life community to be front of the abortatoriums and at the back to receive the broken. And it is.

I appreciate that the author has something to say, and has decided to say it boldly. One difficulty is the lack of *humility* in his words. In fact, he confesses to be partially motivated by "if this is the end of the world I better say what I need to say." Now, I get it, he's being tongue-in-cheek. He's letting us know that he knows what we know and we're all "in on the inside joke." But as others have said in the comments, where does all the "my Jesus" stuff come from? It seems to me that what the article ultimately does is criticize brothers and sisters in Christ for their flawed convictions, then replace them with a set of his own. How does this help?

It becomes most clear when we read his discomfort with his "crazy uncles." But what if those same uncles have to stand behind him and say, “I’m so sorry. He’s young and bit foolish. He means well.”?

Excellent post.

The job of taking on the current state of thinking (especially among the religious) is a tough job.

It was a tough job for Jesus in his day as well. I commend you for speaking truth with boldness and authority. Even in the face of judges and skeptics I believe things like this will begin to shift peoples perspectives for the better.

As a minister working on the front lines of the fight to reach the lost I loved this.

I think that there is a lot of wisdom here as to how we can better demonstrate the love of our God to a lost world. Sometimes it seems that those who do not interact much with the un-churched and irreligious have a hard time really hearing things like this and finding their truth.

It will make a difference if we all get a little more introspective and adjust how we can better display Christ to the world.

The Jesus talked about here is the one I find in my Bible.

I am beginning to understand that the personal part of a "personal relationship with Jesus" is not widely embraced by many who seek to put Jesus in a box.

I stand boldly with this post and say "my Jesus" is about love and understanding.

This is a call for us to quit with the division. I echo the comments above that say that the reason that the world will not take us seriously is because we feel the need to attack rather than state the truth in love.

I get nothing but an urgent sense of love from this post.

Yes we must say they don't speak for me but we must be a voice that speaks even louder.

Jesus has called us to demonstrate his witness by the way we love one another. Even though I may never understand what motivates someone to say the hurtful things some Christians have. I must believe that through our bold words in the face of adversity we can change our God's reputation.

Thank you for standing for truth Michael.
I'm standing right next to you.

It has nothing to do with the world seeing us as a hate group. They hate us no matter what. Many an early church martyr was charged with "hatred of humanity" by the pagans. THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT WE ARE SINFUL BY NATURE!!! The answer to this problem is the Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified for sinners. Sadly this Gospel has been replaced in most American pulpits by another Gospel that is no Gospel at all. This article is not helping things either by placing blame somewhere other than where the blame is actually due!!! The author says- "Reasoning and conversation are God’s way of changing hearts." THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE!!! God's way of changing hearts is His Word and His Sacraments through which the HOLY SPIRIT converts the sinner! Repent Church!!! I don't know which is more depressing, the world, or the state of Evangelicalism.

I have a hard time understanding the people who get upset with what is said here. This idea of a loving God that talks to his kids and reason's with him why his plan is best is a central piece to the gospel. What else do with think things like his word are if not a part of a conversation with humanity.

When one does not understand this relationship element of our salvation I have a hard time believing that they have truly experienced the Grace that comes through Christ.

These people tend to panic about the "state" of the church as if God was not in control. Do you not know that God still speaks and he is guiding his church if we're tuned in and listening. But our focus can not be on a religion.

It must be on Jesus.

This was a beautiful challenge to the church. I don't know what good comes from trying to keep this from being said or attempting to undo what God is doing through posts like this that draw people back to a more authentic relationship with him.

Lets all remember that God does not work for us. The religious elite always tend to forget that God is bigger than our ideas. He's bigger than our ideology. He's even bigger the the Bible (gasp). God is everywhere and he works in ways some may never understand.

A wonderful post.

I can not tell you how excited I was to read what I read here.

Thank you for this.

I respectfully disagree with most every commenter here, in this respect: this article is neither something which must be shouted from the housetops nor derided as proof that CT has "gone liberal". Rather, it strikes me as about an "85", which is a solid "B", a very good passing grade, but with some flawed reasoning. Michael says a lot of things that need to be heard, and then falls into the same fuzzy, muddled reasoning surrounding "gay marriage" that most of society (understandably!) and sadly too many Christians (tragically) fall into.

Put simply, to stand against "gay marriage" is not to deny anybody, anywhere, equal rights, and to understand the question on such terms is to surrender the playing field without so much as a decent argument. Rather, the issue is about one thing: shall the United States redefine the very institution of marriage to something other than it has always been recognized to be in this country (and indeed, generally--not without exception, but generally--been understood by cultures and religions worldwide). I can--and do, by the way--support the impetus for rights to be truly equal for homosexuals, as I believe Christians ought, by the way--without supporting the state's redefinition of the institution of marriage. Such a redefinition, when it (seemingly inevitably) takes place, will render state marriage of no interest or usage to me as a Christian whatsoever, and as a minister of the gospel, will preclude my ever being the instrument of the state to sign off as an accomplice to such an arrangement.

Now all of that said, Michael is spot-on in his words regarding placing blame for these atrocities on the secularists, or the gays, or the liberals, or... This is a valuable article that, with my above caveat, I'll be sharing. A "B" is a pretty good grade, Michael, so thanks.

I have grown up being taught a certain set of rules and regulations that make you a Christian.

I have also been taught that the evil secularists and liberals were out to get us good Christian people as an instrument of satan's evil agenda.

I'm realizing that all the focus on the above mentioned things weather you believe them to be true or not; is not important. It should not be the focus of a faith that is built on grace and redemption.

We have to start correcting some of the misinformed Christian medias opinions.

EXCELLENT article! You covered so many things that I agree with and I found myself saying "Yes, yes, yes!"

The only thing I would have said differently is "I’m tired of our so-called religious leaders speaking for the rest of us in blaming entire people groups." You're doing what you criticized others for doing; painting an entire group of people with the same brush. I would have said "I'm tired of those religious leaders...."

Kudos!

Part of my journey as a very politically and socially liberal atheist (a WASP raised in Disciples of Christ, but only loosely so, so culturally Protestant) has been to distinguish between the segments of American Christianity. The everyday experience of public religion in the US is not about altruism and trust, or acceptance, or ministering to the poor and healing the sick. American Christianity, at least as it exists in the media and politics, has become about hating gays and liberals, punishing women and the poor, persecuting private sexual behavior, and promoting conservative in-group politics. Those positions have come to define religion in the public square in this country, everything from the Mormon church's disgraceful support for Proposition 8 to the Catholic bishops' pathetic but adamant lies about the ACA and birth control.

It's really hard for me to see past that to my friends in the UMC and the UUC and the low church end of Episcopalianism and the moderate wing of the Evangelical movement who are ministering to the poor and healing the sick and doing good in myriad small ways every day. Brand Christian is a hate group, pure and simple, but the followers of Christ are not. It's very hard sometimes for me to keep that in mind. Though I suspect you and I would disagree on many things, I applaud your resolution to raise your voice for the Christianity of back doors and blankets, in opposition to the screaming faces and hatred.

It's interesting to know that even people who are on the gay-hatin' gospel crusade believe that James Dobson, et-al, are wrong to blame the sin of sexual orientation.

But you know, if you believe God hates gays so much that you won't marry a same-sex couple in church, why not assume Dobson's right and it's that particularly awful sin that the children - at least two of whom probably were lesbian or gay - died for?

At some point, don't you have to decide if God hates gays or if God's love applies to everybody? And if the latter, is it just moral cowardice that leads you to refuse to wed same-sex couples?

After reading this article and some of the comments I'm surprised by some of them. I have done a little googling on the subject and find that people on both sides are taking an approach that does not fix the problem.

It seems to me that what the author is saying is that he is an advocate for tolerance of everyone's beliefs. Just because he says he will not perform a gay wedding ceremony does not make him hateful or a bigot of some kind. Arguments like this from the gay community are hurtful to the cause of gay rights. What you do when you post these rant like comments you become the the "Right Wing" of the LGBT world.

This is America we're talking about. Just because an imam won't perform a Christian wedding ceremony it does not make him hateful or hurtful. It simply means it does not coincide with his "personal" beliefs.

What this author is saying is he is FOR people choosing their own way. And for this I commend him.

Just because he says he will not perform a gay wedding ceremony does not make him hateful or a bigot of some kind.

Bob, let's imagine this scenario with Pastor Z.

There are three couples who want to get married, and they want Pastor Z to perform the ceremony. Pastor Z is a Baptist, let's say.

Couple A have both been members of Pastor Z's church for ten years: they're both Baptists.

Couple B met each other at a shindig organised by Pastor Z's church and the Methodist church down the road: B1 is a Baptist, B2 is a Methodist.

Couple C are both non-practicing Jewish and have never been to a service at Pastor Z's church in their lives.

All of them come to Pastor Z and say "We want to be married and we want you to perform the ceremony."

Bob, which of them do you suppose Pastor Z will say "Yes" to? My guess is, he'll say Yes to A, maybe to B, No to C. (Assume all three are lovely couples, clearly sincere in their commitment to each other.)

Now suppose Couple B are an interracial couple, and they've come to Pastor Z because the Methodist minister says he doesn't approve of marrying across the races. Is the Methodist minister a bigot or hateful for saying so? Or just saying he won't perform a service that doesn't accord with his personal beliefs?

Now suppose Couple A are a gay couple. Is there any reason other than homophobic bigotry why Pastor Z suddenly says "No, I won't wed you?" to two long-standing church members?

I don't think so.

In real life this probably wouldn't happen, because in real life, the gay couple would likely not be members of a church that would already have made clear they weren't wanted: an exclusive church that believes Christianity is not for gay people.

Your idea that it's "ranting" to point out that a pastor that deliberately excludes believers because of their sexual orientation is a bigot? Really, Bob?

Eye,

I won't deny that hatred or bigotry is not present on some level in the discussion against same-sex marriage as a whole.

But to reduce the entire issue to hatred and bigotry alone is grossly unfair. The issue is much more complex and nuanced than that.

I am a pastor, and I choose not to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. It has nothing to do with hate or bigotry. But from a lifetime of studying and meditating on the Bible, I have the conviction that homosexuality is inconsistent with God's will.

And it's certainly not because I'm close-minded. I grew up in a traditionally conservative church, but as I've grown older, there are many issues where I have changed my thinking to a more "liberal" position; and I've done so because that is where the Biblical evidence has led me.

The Biblical evidence has not led me otherwise on my position on homosexuality.

Now, I recognize that there are many Christians who interpret the Biblical evidence differently. That's fine. I may disagree with their conclusions, but I respect their right to believe and live according to their convictions. And as I wrote earlier, I have no interest in pushing for laws that will legislate my own religious convictions.

And just because I will not perform a same-sex marriage ceremony does not mean that I am excluding believers. They are always welcome at church. They are welcome to participate in the Lord's Supper. I am glad to pray for them and minister to them and love them.

Christianity is not an exclusive club. Everyone is invited to be a part of the family of God.

And yet, there *is* a cost: deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus. There is nothing in Biblical Christianity to suggest that people are fine just the way they are, and they don't have to worry about changing. On the contrary, it is because *none* of us is fine just the way we are that Christ had to come to die for our sins on the cross. Christianity is not simply a mental acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is, first of all, a death to self, in a very real way, so that now I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

As a pastor, my first priority is to live such a life for myself. Then, I am more than willing to walk along with anyone who desires, even those who are gay, and help them to figure out how to live such a life for themselves, as well.

So, none of this has anything to do with hatred and bigotry. I'm simply trying to live the Bible the best that I can, and help others to do the same. I hope you can see that.

This ranks as one of the BEST blog posts I have ever read. I believe every "professing" Christian needs to read this. This post perfectly captures my sentiments, and reflects the way I strive to model my beliefs. Wanna know WWJD? Then read - and DO what's pointed out in this post. EXCELLENT. I Tweeted this (and will continue to do so) and also posted a link on my Facebook page.

"...an exclusive church that believes Christianity is not for gay people."

And therein is the lie so many people tell themselves.

There is no such thing as "gay people."

There is only people.

Only man is the one that pigeon holes people, telling them "Thus you are, thus you remain."

And how many times has G-d said, "bullsh*t!"

How many times does G-d have to show everyone that no one has to be stuffed into man's pigeon holes.

Murderers, rapists, molestors, thieves, liars, haters, sexual immorality, moral immorality...the list goes on of people who have been changed by G-d...

But this insistent lie, this myth that people have to remain as they are still persists.

Jesus, or Y'shua, is G-d, is the messiah, is the Lord G-d Almighty, and all things are made new in him...but first, the people, that is whom Y'shua came to make new again, mankind. Jesus has dealt the death knell to this...lie...and many other lies.

But like the rich young man who loved himself some Jesus, when asked to give up the one thing that the world said defined him for who he was...his response was a "nope. Can't do it!"...and like so many others both past and present embraced the lie, and walked away from G-d.

Jesus is for everyone, but not everyone is willing to put aside the lie that the world keeps telling them and follow Y'shua.

Sheerahkahn,

"Jesus is for everyone, but not everyone is willing to put aside the lie that the world keeps telling them and follow Y'shua."

Right there you wrote so eloquently what I was struggling to put into words, myself. Thank you!

This ranks as one of the BEST blog posts I have ever read. I believe every "professing" Christian needs to read this. This post perfectly captures my sentiments, and reflects the way I strive to model my beliefs. Wanna know WWJD? Then read - and DO what's pointed out in this post. EXCELLENT. I Tweeted this (and will continue to do so) and also posted a link on my Facebook page.
------------

AGREED.

A different anonymous: I am a pastor, and I choose not to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. It has nothing to do with hate or bigotry. But from a lifetime of studying and meditating on the Bible, I have the conviction that homosexuality is inconsistent with God's will.

Okay. So gay people are excluded, in your view, from your religion. I support freedom of religion, I really do: you have the right to believe that God hates gay people, and to promote that view as a pastor.

And it's certainly not because I'm close-minded. I grew up in a traditionally conservative church, but as I've grown older, there are many issues where I have changed my thinking to a more "liberal" position; and I've done so because that is where the Biblical evidence has led me.

That gay people don't belong in your Church.

The Biblical evidence has not led me otherwise on my position on homosexuality.

That gay people don't belong in Christianity.

Now, I recognize that there are many Christians who interpret the Biblical evidence differently. That's fine. I may disagree with their conclusions, but I respect their right to believe and live according to their convictions. And as I wrote earlier, I have no interest in pushing for laws that will legislate my own religious convictions.

I respect that, I really do: you have a right to believe that gay people aren't part of your religion, are living outside "God's will".

And just because I will not perform a same-sex marriage ceremony does not mean that I am excluding believers. They are always welcome at church. They are welcome to participate in the Lord's Supper. I am glad to pray for them and minister to them and love them.

Except for those whom you believe - as you have just explained - are excluded from your religion and your church by our sexual orientation.

Christianity is not an exclusive club. Everyone is invited to be a part of the family of God.

Except for gay people. Got it.

And yet, there *is* a cost: deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus. There is nothing in Biblical Christianity to suggest that people are fine just the way they are, and they don't have to worry about changing. On the contrary, it is because *none* of us is fine just the way we are that Christ had to come to die for our sins on the cross. Christianity is not simply a mental acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is, first of all, a death to self, in a very real way, so that now I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

From my perspective, though, your exclusionary attitude - hurtful and mean to the LGBT children born to parents who are members of your church - means that Christ cannot be living in you, according to my own understanding of Christianity. (Which I fully admit is just my own personal understanding.) To my understanding, Jesus doesn't want people like you to be cruel to children, or to teach as you do that some people are just too inferior to belong. But that's just me.

You have decided to exclude all lesbian and gay adults from your church. They'll be aware of this and they won't try to join - if they do, you will doubtless make clear to them as you have done to me that you don't consider they belong.

(Trying to claim that you haven't done that? The key phrase is "homosexuality is inconsistent with God's will" - so long as you stick to that, so long as you justify that to yourself, you are excluding all gay people from your religion.)

Adults can protect themselves by staying away. But children can't. The LGBT children born to members of your church grow up in a religion that rejects them and behaves cruelly to them. I know because I have known far more LGBT people who grew up in anti-gay churches like yours than you ever have, or ever will, and I can tell you: they become closeted/marry against their sexual orientation/have unhappy marriages/are unfaithful - if they've convinced themselves you're right: or they completely reject God and religion both, and become the most angry of atheists: or sometimes, they change churches and still identify as Christians, just no longer believing God hates them as they were taught by you as children.

You see, you can teach the children that how they fall in love, and their sexual feelings, are "against the will of God". But that won't make their love and passion go away. It will just teach them that God hates the way they are.

As a pastor, my first priority is to live such a life for myself.

Then you would need to give up your bigotry and prejudice against gay people, and lose your idea that it's justified by God.

Then, I am more than willing to walk along with anyone who desires, even those who are gay, and help them to figure out how to live such a life for themselves, as well.

"Even" the inferior people whom you reject from your church? Big of you.

So, none of this has anything to do with hatred and bigotry. I'm simply trying to live the Bible the best that I can, and help others to do the same. I hope you can see that.

So, none of this has anything to do with hatred and bigotry. I'm simply trying to live the Bible the best that I can, and help others to do the same. I hope you can see that.

I do see that you're trying to "live the Bible". The Bible is a big book, and people have at different times found in it excuses to justify all sorts of cruelty and meanness. I don't think that deliberately excluding gay people from your church and driving away the LGBT children of your parishioners (and their parents too, if they care more for their children than for your religion) is the worst kind of hatred and bigotry, but it's certainly cruel and mean and closed-hearted - a kind of spiritual arrogance all too common.

Look, I suspect I could probably write down for you - "A different anonymous" or "Sheerahkahn" what you'll say in kneejerk response to what I've said. I'm very seldom surprised by homophobic pastors any more: you all seem to read from the same script, and none of you want to listen to lesbian/gay people telling you how your exclusionary/hateful attitude to God and LGBT people comes across to us: you want to tell us how we ought to feel about your preaching against our sexual orientation, and if we don't feel the way you think we should, you tell us we're in the wrong.

(See "Bob Montgomery", above, for a classic example of this.)

I very much doubt it'll be the words of a stranger on a blog that cause you to re-evaluate your attitude, if you ever do. I thank the blogowner for letting me have my say.

Loved the heart of this piece. Inspires me to live with more acceptance and hold to my convictions with grace. I am re-evaluating how I can better let the world know that the God I follow is one of love.

" I'm very seldom surprised by homophobic pastors any more: you all seem to read from the same script, and none of you want to listen to lesbian/gay people telling you how your exclusionary/hateful attitude to God and LGBT people comes across to us: you want to tell us how we ought to feel about your preaching against our sexual orientation, and if we don't feel the way you think we should, you tell us we're in the wrong."

Your sexual choices are yours to make, and whom you chose to sleep with is yours to make as well, presuming you're an adult and whom you engage in sex with is a consenting adult. None of which I have a say in whether I approve or disapprove...which does beg the one question that I'm thinking....

So, what brings you here?

Why do you care what a daily shrinking group of people think?

The world loves your choices!

The world says you're okay just the way you are because this is who you are, and don't change because you can't change.

So with all the worlds approval here in the United States, why do you care what, and I'll freely admit, a minority opinion thinks?

Is it because we presumed to speak for G-d?

You said it yourself that we hate G-d, so obviously we're not even worth speaking too...and, thus, by the logical progression of your statement you should ignore us for the heathens we are.

So..why are you here reading the opinions of a bunch of "bigoted, homophobic...ad nauseum" people who just thump each other over the head with the bible, acting like a pack of chimps throwing exegetical poo at each other?

Why.do.you.care?

Sheerahkahn:

A midwinter message: "When the season is dark, bring the light of your reason. When the season is cold, bring the warmth of your love. When the season is difficult, bring the ease of your generosity. And when the season is once again bright, warm, and easy, Keep bringing your reason, love, and generosity, For they’re needed year round."

"So, what brings you here?"

I clicked on a link from a blog I like to read.

"So with all the worlds approval here in the United States, why do you care what, and I'll freely admit, a minority opinion thinks?"

The number of children hurt by views like Michael Cheshire's, or the "anonymous pastor" who commented in response to me, may be a minority and diminishing. I certainly hope so. But surely when it comes to trying to stop children being hurt, do we really count numbers and say "you don't have to care, it's only this many children"?

I do Michael and others the credit of assuming that if they genuinely understood how the views they promote do hurt the LGBT children of their congregations, they'd stop. I may be wrong, but I like to think the best of people.

But I acknowledge - and that was what I was trying to get at in my last comment - that a total stranger on a blog is not really going to convince people who are set in their conviction that God supports and identifies with their bigotry. There are plenty of rejected children who can say that even discovering their own child is LGBT hasn't convinced a parent that they should reject their bigoted beliefs about God rather than reject the child they loved. Bigotry that can overcome parental love is strong indeed.

Why.do.you.care?

See the midwinter message: reason, love, and generosity.

Again, I appreciate the blogowner's willingness to let me have my say.

I liked this article. Thank you, Michael Chesire. Let's see more like it.

Last night, I was talking with my children about Luke 7:36-47 -- about the Pharisee and the prostitute and the conversation with Jesus.

The bottom line: The Pharisee was a very moral person, but he showed no love for Jesus. The prostitute was a very immoral person, but she had a lot of love for Jesus. Her many sins were forgiven fully. His? Well...Jesus is kind of vague there.

We Christians need to think like Jesus.

Jesus was condemned for being too friendly with sinners. It's a good sign that Christianity Today is being accused of the same thing.

Keep up the good work, Url and Friends at "Out of Ur."

Eye,

I'm sorry for the hurt you've experienced in the past. I really am. I don't expect you to agree, or even simply understand, what I wrote. In fact, I understand completely why you wouldn't. If I was in your situation, I imagine I wouldn't either.

But I do appreciate that you at least took the time to read what I wrote.

I apologize if you were offended by my conviction that "homosexuality is inconsistent with the will of God." Be assured, however, that I am equally convicted that pride is also inconsistent with the will of God, and yet I am the most proud person I know. And there are many other aspects of my character that I recognize as inconsistent with the will of God. So by no means do I see myself as any better than you. If I really did believe that Christianity was not for gays, that would mean that it's not for me either! The demands of Christ are as harsh on me as they are on anyone else, and it is only in Christ and through his grace that I am able to bear them.

"[I]f we don't feel the way you think we should, you tell us we're in the wrong." No, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. That's not my place. Just because you and I clearly disagree on this issue doesn't mean you're the one who's wrong! Ultimately, it is up to God's spirit to convict you as to whether you are right or wrong. And I trust that same spirit to convict me if *I* am the one who is wrong. He's done so, many times in my life. I have been wrong many times, and I have to nothing to loose if God convicts me through his word that I am wrong concerning homosexuality.

And I don't believe God hates you. Not for a second!! God loves you infinitely more than either you or I could ever imagine.

There are, in fact, a few gays and lesbians who regularly attend my church. I had the opportunity this weekend to have a deep conversation with one of them, and I asked her, "Please, be honest with me, do you feel excluded at this church?"

She paused for a few moments. She answered with a shaky voice, "By many, yes. I would even say by most. But not by you. And not by a few others who matter to us. And that's why we keep coming back."

You see, I love these people with all my heart. Because at the end of the day, as Sheerahkahn said, that is what they are--people. I don't see them as gay or lesbian. I don't see them as inferior to me or as greater sinners than I am. I see them simply as people, people that God has placed in my life so that I can love them and serve them.

I'll be honest with you. It does sting a bit when I am accused of being bigoted and hateful and exclusive because of my conviction concerning homosexuality. I'm only human, and it's natural to become defensive.

Then I am reminded that you don't know me personally, and that it's unreasonable on my part to expect you to believe otherwise about me! But also that those who are homosexual who *do* know me and my ministry, would heartily disagree with your evaluation of me as a person. And that's enough for me.

So, happy new year, Eye. Forgive me for having offended you. It was never my intention to have done so, and I am grieved to know that I did do so. I wish you the best.

I apologize if you were offended by my conviction that "homosexuality is inconsistent with the will of God." Be assured, however, that I am equally convicted that pride is also inconsistent with the will of God, and yet I am the most proud person I know. And there are many other aspects of my character that I recognize as inconsistent with the will of God. So by no means do I see myself as any better than you

Are you married? Do you regard your marriage as outwith the will of God because you're "the most proud person you know" and so you ought not to have been allowed to marry in religion? Because if not, you're just being hypocritical about this. If marriage is denied to those who live "outwith the will of God", it's denied to all who do, not just to those you regard as your inferiors, safe to discriminate against.

. If I really did believe that Christianity was not for gays, that would mean that it's not for me either!

So why are you teaching most of your congregation to believe Christianity is not for gays?

The demands of Christ are as harsh on me as they are on anyone else, and it is only in Christ and through his grace that I am able to bear them.

So you have denied yourself marriage because you're sure that Christ would not want someone guilty of the sin of pride to marry?

Ultimately, it is up to God's spirit to convict you as to whether you are right or wrong. And I trust that same spirit to convict me if *I* am the one who is wrong.

That's a good point. But with regard to LGBT people, clearly you're not listening!

And I don't believe God hates you. Not for a second!! God loves you infinitely more than either you or I could ever imagine.

Then how can you have the arrogant effrontery to think that God finds my sexual orientation "inconsistent with his will" and dare to discriminate? Why do you set yourself up to be better than God?

She paused for a few moments. She answered with a shaky voice, "By many, yes. I would even say by most. But not by you. And not by a few others who matter to us. And that's why we keep coming back."

What a terrible indictment for you as a pastor, to know that you have taught most of your congregation to hate and exclude this poor woman. How horrible for her, too, to have to put up with this church that you lead in bigotry just because it's better than nothing and not as bad as it could be. I'm so sorry for her, and so sorry that you don't care enough to stop listening to your own anti-gay bigotry.

You see, I love these people with all my heart. Because at the end of the day, as Sheerahkahn said, that is what they are--people. I don't see them as gay or lesbian. I don't see them as inferior to me or as greater sinners than I am. I see them simply as people, people that God has placed in my life so that I can love them and serve them.

By teaching the congregation - most of them - to exclude LGBT people? That's how you "love and serve" them? And again, your insistance that you don't see them as greater sinners is made a hypocritical lie by your insistance that you're entitled to judge them and exclude them from marriage as inferior to you.

But also that those who are homosexual who *do* know me and my ministry, would heartily disagree with your evaluation of me as a person. And that's enough for me.

I didn't hear hearty disagreement in that woman's voice or in your description of her evaluation of you as a pastor. I appreciate your honesty, but she's telling you that you're a failure.

Note also - I don't know how large your congregation is - that the most of the congregation whom you've taught to regard this woman as their inferior, probably have children. Some of those children will be LGBT. You are teaching your congregation to be hateful and exclusive towards their children.

So, happy new year, Eye. Forgive me for having offended you. It was never my intention to have done so, and I am grieved to know that I did do so. I wish you the best.

Happy new year to you. I did intend to offend you: I always slightly hope that an offended bigot who's honest/sincere may actually begin to question why he's so certain his bigotry against LGBT people is the will of God.

I'll be honest with you. It does sting a bit when I am accused of being bigoted and hateful and exclusive because of my conviction concerning homosexuality. I'm only human, and it's natural to become defensive.

It's also human, to rethink. Humans are capable - though you seem to think otherwise - to consider that their behaviour is hurtful, to repent, to change their minds, to behave differently. Perhaps you will, in 2013. It would be nice to think so.

"Happy new year to you. I did intend to offend you: I always slightly hope that an offended bigot who's honest/sincere may actually begin to question why he's so certain his bigotry against LGBT people is the will of God."

I want you to know something that I've noticed in all your posts.

But first, reread all your posts, I'll wait.

....

...

..

.

Notice a trend there?

You throw bigot around a lot, and yet, but the very definition of the word, you, too, are the bigot.

You throw hateful around a lot, too, and yet, by the very definition of the word, you are fill with hatred.

So here is something I want you take away from this observation...

you.are.no.different.than.the.people.you.are.accusing.of.bigotry.and.hatefulness.

So, let me be the first to welcome you to being human.

And I want you to know, it was not I who undermined your entire premise, it was you...being cogent of your argument is just as important as being sympathetic to your target.

Neither of which you demonstrated.

But thank you for confirming your humanity we do have that in common.

*ticks checkbox*

Ah, Sheerahkahn, thank you. The kneejerk "Why won't you tolerate my intolerance!!!" argument. Let me refer you to the evangelical Christian rebuttal, and have done:

As with the bit about the all-powerful God and the unliftable rock, the people citing the intolerant antinomy seem to have no idea that they’re not really saying anything at all about tolerance or intolerance, but merely providing yet another illustration of the elasticity and limits of language. They’re really just presenting another illustration of Russell’s paradox, the set of all normal sets, which Bertrand Russell himself illustrated with the example of the barber above.

EdinburghEye, I have personally apologized for my own words, and I have tried to clarify myself the best I can. Whether you have misread me either intentionally, or simply because of the pain you have experienced in your past, I don't know. But I can't do anything about it, either way. I have done the best I can, and my conscience is clean. Any attempts to continue to clarify myself or correct the misreadings and misunderstandings will only exacerbate the situation. As I can do no more, I bid you now farewell, and Godspeed.

I look forward to getting to know you better in God's kingdom real soon, without all this horrible sin getting in the way of us knowing each other fully, to paraphrase Paul, even as we have been fully known by God!

"A Different Anonymous",: Whether you have misread me either intentionally, or simply because of the pain you have experienced in your past, I don't know.

What makes you think you've been misread or misunderstood? Just because I don't think as well of you as you think I should?

Ah well, I guess that is your besetting sin, and you were candid enough to admit it: pride.

You haven't apologised. ("Sorry if" isn't an apology, as I'm sure you know.) But I don't feel you owe me an apology: I am not among the LGBT people you are hurting. Nor have you said anything new or different from anything other homophobic Christians have said about how they want to think well of themselves without actually changing their views. This is not hurtful to me personally: this is concerning with regard to the LGBT people who are close enough to you to be hurt by you.

Enough already. We get it. We are homophobes alright? Case closed. I hope you are happy.

Enough already! Alright, we get it. We are terrible homophobes!

"*ticks checkbox*

Ah, Sheerahkahn, thank you. The kneejerk "Why won't you tolerate my intolerance!!!" argument."

And so you confirm what before I only suspected.

You really should reread your posts...you are no different than the people you condemn.

Dear EyeEdinburgh,

My name is Michelle. I am the person that Pastor "A different anonymous" was talking about. When he asked me if I felt excluded at church he mentioned the conversation he was having on this blog. So I've been checking in during the week to see what he was saying. I was not planning on jumping in myself. And he doesn't know I'm writing this. But I felt compelled to speak on his behalf because you assumed some things about me that are just not true.
I do NOT believe he is a failure, and I would never tell him so. I grew up in this church. My family attends here every week. When I came out I caught hell from pretty much my whole family and from pretty much the whole church. Pastor was the only one who stuck by me. He prayed for me and he visited me everyday for weeks afterwards. He caught hell himself when they held communion at church and he let me participate. And I know for a fact that he still gets chewed out for it but he still let's me participate every time we have communion. And you know what? Other people are starting to get it. Other people are starting to love us and make us feel included. There's still a lot of hatred and bigotry in this church and I told him so. That's why my voice was shaky as he described. But I thank him because there is none in him and because of him there is starting to be less in the church than there used to be. He doesn't teach the church to exclude us. He teaches the church that I and my other LGBT friends are always welcome.
And another thing. I don't "put up" with this church. Instead I LOVE this church. It is the only church that I have ever known. After I came out I was very tempted to leave to another church that was more accepting of me. But then I was meditating on John where it says "He came to his own and his own did not receive him." And I felt God telling me "People hated My Son but He did not run away from them. He returned their hate by loving them." And I saw how that's what Pastor was doing too by loving those who criticized him for standing up for me. So I decided that's what I'm going to do too. I'm tired of hating back. I'm tired of being bitter. I'm tired of being pissed off because people at church don't accept me. Instead I'm going to return their hate by loving them. And it's hard as hell. But Jesus is helping me do it and it feels much better than being pissed off all the time.
I showed what you wrote and what I wrote to my other LGBT friends who attend church here with me. And they agree with me so I'm writing this on their behalf also. Thank you for your concern, but Pastor has NEVER done anything to hurt us. And just to make it clear we do HEARTILY disagree with your evaluation of him. Maybe if you're going to try to change a person from being hateful and bigoted next time you should pick someone who you know personally really is hateful and bigoted. Because you picked the wrong guy with our Pastor.

Sincerely,

Members of the Church of Pastor "A Different Anonymous"

We must remember that Jesus asked for people to repent of their sins. Mary Magdalene didn't continue to be a prostitute, Zacheus didn't continue to be dishonest in tax collecting. Jesus frequently commanded that people sin no more after he healed them. We can't offer the false hope that people don't have to repent and come to Jesus.